The latest Twitter war

Revman said:
Whose theory? Whose?! BTW--Wouldn't air dams be aero? Never mind. Dear God.
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It was a topic of conversation with the parties involved when the vehicle was introduced. They were asked about it on NASCAR radio but wouldn't answer why they followed Toyota's design. You could tell there was a lot of wink, wink, nudge, nudge going on.
 
Revman said:
Jesus, of course they have an advantage! Nobody is arguing that. They ******* earned it. Now, it's Chevy and Ford's job to earn it. WTF! This is unreal. The context of his comments was much the same as mine here BTW. OMG.
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I didn't realize that I responded to you or that my comments were aimed at you or be taken that the were. They weren't. I was replying to Skoalbandit33 and quoted him in my post.
 
Formerjackman said:
I would agree with you if Chevy and Ford could come out with a new nose during the season to counter the Toyota's, but they CAN'T. NASCAR's stated goal has been to make the car as equal as possible, right or wrong. My guess is either by luck or design, Toyota ended up with a new part that perhaps was a little farther outside of the box than NASCAR would have desired and understood at the time. That's OK, I don't have a big issue with that, but when you have taken away nearly every avenue the competition has to trying to catch up, it becomes a problem. If Chevy comes up with a better body next year and smokes the Toyotas and Fords, will the message be " get over it, your 2108 season is a waste, better luck in 2019? ?
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Yea lets just run a new body every other week and further muddy the water. I can see allowing a change to pass with less notice but if a manufacture can't get it right you "run what you brung" for the season. This is sort of a necessary policy imo.
 
Revman, i think you are missing the point. NASCAR gave Toyota the avenue it needed to be fast. However they took it away from Ford and Gm and refuse to give them anything in return, so no the cars are not even close to being equal and there is no other avenue for the other teams to go down to make anything up. If you step away and take off your Toyota cap and put on a unbiased one and take another look at whats going on you will see this. Unfortunately i don't think you can handle doing that because you act like man child with some of the stupid crap you post. So eat it up now while you can. The day is coming when the Monster cup serious is going to look the camping world truck serious. All Toyota's, handful of chevy's, no fords and about 5 people in the stands with tape delayed broadcast.
 
Topaz said:
Revman, i think you are missing the point. NASCAR gave Toyota the avenue it needed to be fast. However they took it away from Ford and Gm and refuse to give them anything in return, so no the cars are not even close to being equal and there is no other avenue for the other teams to go down to make anything up. If you step away and take off your Toyota cap and put on a unbiased one and take another look at whats going on you will see this. Unfortunately i don't think you can handle doing that because you act like man child with some of the stupid crap you post. So eat it up now while you can. The day is coming when the Monster cup serious is going to look the camping world truck serious. All Toyota's, handful of chevy's, no fords and about 5 people in the stands with tape delayed broadcast.
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Fans want to believe that any sport is on the up and up. If the governing body is looked at as throwing cautions to influence the outcome of a race or that they allow one manufacturer a competitive advantage then there is trouble. You aren't to far away from the fan base believing it has become entertainment and not a true competition on the track.
 
If you think attendance is bad this year. Wait till next year, i bet it takes another 20-25% hit since dale Jr is no longer out there.
 
Topaz said:
Revman, i think you are missing the point. NASCAR gave Toyota the avenue it needed to be fast. However they took it away from Ford and Gm and refuse to give them anything in return, so no the cars are not even close to being equal and there is no other avenue for the other teams to go down to make anything up. If you step away and take off your Toyota cap and put on a unbiased one and take another look at whats going on you will see this. Unfortunately i don't think you can handle doing that because you act like man child with some of the stupid crap you post. So eat it up now while you can. The day is coming when the Monster cup serious is going to look the camping world truck serious. All Toyota's, handful of chevy's, no fords and about 5 people in the stands with tape delayed broadcast.
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"Take off your Toyota cap and put on an unbiased one." This is an outstanding example of something. But, what, is, it.
 
Topaz said:
If you think attendance is bad this year. Wait till next year, i bet it takes another 20-25% hit since dale Jr is no longer out there.
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Danica Patrick's likely exit won't help either. Say what you will about her performance, but I see a lot of #10 shirts at the track when I attend a race.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
“I think Toyota has an advantage. Was it something they were given? No. Is it unfair? No. They worked extremely hard to make all of this happen.”
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What you are not considering is that Toyota did get a new nose (front clip) and that is the advantage for this season. That could be gone next season if the other manufactures due their testing properly. How ever my point is Nascar doesn't make all teams do it the same time frame.
They did the same thing when the new engines came out. Ford waited and then came with a cooler engine design. Problem is it wasn't the most HP and it changed the front clips ever since. That was something RFR couldn't over come.
 
Rick said:
Yea lets just run a new body every other week and further muddy the water. I can see allowing a change to pass with less notice but if a manufacture can't get it right you "run what you brung" for the season. This is sort of a necessary policy imo.
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The point is, by NASCAR's design, (right or wrong) The cars are supposed to be as equal as possible. Their task was to make sure that the Toyota body was EQUAL to the Ford and Chevy, not BETTER. NASCAR built this box that everybody is supposed to fit in. If something gets out of kilter, it's THEIR JOB to make it right.
 
Formerjackman said:
The point is, by NASCAR's design, (right or wrong) The cars are supposed to be as equal as possible. Their task was to make sure that the Toyota body was EQUAL to the Ford and Chevy, not BETTER. NASCAR built this box that everybody is supposed to fit in. If something gets out of kilter, it's THEIR JOB to make it right.
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Nascar is not spec racing.
 
Towmater said:
Fans want to believe that any sport is on the up and up. If the governing body is looked at as throwing cautions to influence the outcome of a race or that they allow one manufacturer a competitive advantage then there is trouble. You aren't to far away from the fan base believing it has become entertainment and not a true competition on the track.
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I have never mistaken Nascar for a true sport but it has become far less about sport and far more about entertaining in the past 10-15 years then at any other time I am aware of. Unfortunately the gimmicks and other silly things Nascar has done has alienated the current fan base while failing to attract new fans. Nascar continues to dig a hole for itself and instead of stopping and trying to fix things it asks for more men with more shovels.

What Nascar has now is a remnant of longtime fans that remain devoted to the series but millions that have either died off or walked away.
 
ToyYoda said:
Danica Patrick's likely exit won't help either. Say what you will about her performance, but I see a lot of #10 shirts at the track when I attend a race.
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I have NEVER understood that way of thought. It seems to me that you either like the sport or you do not. I can't imagine abandoning a sport just because my favorite player retired. Anybody that puts all of their eggs in one basket are just looking to be disappointed most of the time. I have been doing this for 36 years. I ALWAYS have a driver 1, a driver 2 and sometimes a driver 3.
 
Rick said:
Nascar is not spec racing.
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You might not THINK it is, but about the ONLY differences between NASCAR and IROC is there are three brands and they let different crews work on the cars. Have you SEEN the claw that measures the body? The teams aren't allowed to do much of ANYTHING to them. Remember 2007? the 24 and the 48 teams came up with bodies that fit the template at EVERY SINGLE measuring point, but were altered in other ways and all they got out of it was four week vacations for Chad Knaus and Steve Letarte. The box is several times tighter now than it was then.
 
Unfortunately a lot of people do though. I was a huge Ernie irvan fan as a kid. He retired and I was heart broken. Haha remember I was a kid at the time. I then followed smoke over the years and few other drivers too. But it was never the same for me. I stilled enjoyed it. But now not so much anymore. Smoke is gone and now it's mostly pretty boys. However I definitely like Ryan blaney. Talk about a breath of fresh air.
 
Ryan is well liked in the garage as far as I can tell. I think he will be a good team mate at Penske. I just hope Ford can make their car more competitive with a newer design. hard to work with that deep block engine though. Maybe they need to consider a new motor as well.
They don't run 10,000 rpm anymore so the engine is outdated as well.
 
Formerjackman said:
You might not THINK it is, but about the ONLY differences between NASCAR and IROC is there are three brands and they let different crews work on the cars. Have you SEEN the claw that measures the body? The teams aren't allowed to do much of ANYTHING to them. Remember 2007? the 24 and the 48 teams came up with bodies that fit the template at EVERY SINGLE measuring point, but were altered in other ways and all they got out of it was four week vacations for Chad Knaus and Steve Letarte. The box is several times tighter now than it was then.
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Where do u think nascar would be if there was no advantage to be gained? The sandbox that teams are given is a pillar of the sport. How much funding, hard work, and pride do u think would be around without that sandbox?? Would it even be a series??
 
Rick said:
Where do u think nascar would be if there was no advantage to be gained? The sandbox that teams are given is a pillar of the sport. How much funding, hard work, and pride do u think would be around without that sandbox?? Would it even be a series??
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Not sure what your saying here?
Nascar's greatest era was when they ran the twisted sister car
and everyone cheated as hard as they could. Yes they were a little behind on safety however today everyone is so safe that they willingly cause an accident knowing they will be all right.
 
Formerjackman said:
I have NEVER understood that way of thought. It seems to me that you either like the sport or you do not. I can't imagine abandoning a sport just because my favorite player retired. Anybody that puts all of their eggs in one basket are just looking to be disappointed most of the time. I have been doing this for 36 years. I ALWAYS have a driver 1, a driver 2 and sometimes a driver 3.
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I don't either, but a lot of fans think this way.
 
Rick said:
Where do u think nascar would be if there was no advantage to be gained? The sandbox that teams are given is a pillar of the sport. How much funding, hard work, and pride do u think would be around without that sandbox?? Would it even be a series??
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Well maybe it USED to be a pillar, but not anymore. NASCAR is bound and determined not to police the sport on week to week basis like the old days where spoiler heights among manufacturers were changed on an almost monthly basis and instead just give everyone the same car to work with. The message is CLEAR from NASCAR. They want teams and manufacturers to have as little chance to gain a competitive advantage as possible. They want EVERYTHING to be decided by chassis setups, pit strategy and the driver.
 
Topaz said:
NASCAR gave Toyota the avenue it needed to be fast. However they took it away from Ford and Gm and refuse to give them anything in return
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I don't understand this statement. Ford and Chevy have the same opportunities to submit new car designs but haven't. Chevy will next year and it seems Ford is still behind in that matter. NASCAR didn't give Toyota anything, Toyota put in the work to get that speed and its up to the others to react.
 
Formerjackman said:
Well maybe it USED to be a pillar, but not anymore. NASCAR is bound and determined not to police the sport on week to week basis like the old days where spoiler heights among manufacturers were changed on an almost monthly basis and instead just give everyone the same car to work with. The message is CLEAR from NASCAR. They want teams and manufacturers to have as little chance to gain a competitive advantage as possible. They want EVERYTHING to be decided by chassis setups, pit strategy and the driver.
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So a legal advantage must be policed immediately? That goes against everything worth fighting for. Why invest in a series that neuteres hard work and innovation??
 
Simple Fan said:
I don't understand this statement. Ford and Chevy have the same opportunities to submit new car designs but haven't. Chevy will next year and it seems Ford is still behind in that matter. NASCAR didn't give Toyota anything, Toyota put in the work to get that speed and its up to the others to react.
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I'm pretty sure you have to have a valid reason to submit a new body, such as a model change or to correct some real problem like the Fords had collecting debris on the nose the first year of Gen 6. . I do not believe NASCAR will let you submit new parts just so you can go faster.
 
Revman said:
Whose theory? Whose?! BTW--Wouldn't air dams be aero? Never mind. Dear God
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Theory comes from the garage and has been speculated on several nascar oriented online mediums.

For what its worth, its speculated the dams help seal the splitter to the surface of the track.

Im gonna need you to take the emotion out and think logically. Also, God wont help you.
 
Rick said:
So a legal advantage must be policed immediately? That goes against everything worth fighting for. Why invest in a series that neuteres hard work and innovation??
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They want the hard work to be limited to the areas I mentioned. If you spend 10,000 man hours trying to develop a spring package that makes your car a tenth faster, NASCAR has no issue with that.
 
The only reason this can of worms has even been opened is because the fans screamed the COT had no brand identity. This is a consequence of that. When the cars are made to mimic their showroom counterparts more then they were previously, there will be differences which will help one manufacturer over the other. I know they aren't exact duplicates of what goes out the showroom but they're a whole lot better than the COT was.
 
Formerjackman said:
I'm pretty sure you have to have a valid reason to submit a new body, such as a model change or to correct some real problem like the Fords had collecting debris on the nose the first year of Gen 6. . I do not believe NASCAR will let you submit new parts just so you can go faster.
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While I can understand that it hasn't stopped Toyota from changing their car and Ford and Chevy could do the same but haven't. This new car is supposed to look more like its street counterpart and Toyota has embraced that and also made changes the street model Camry that would help with racing. That is great for the sport and something Chevy is also looking to do now that they can get away from the SS.
 
Simple Fan said:
I don't understand this statement. Ford and Chevy have the same opportunities to submit new car designs but haven't. Chevy will next year and it seems Ford is still behind in that matter. NASCAR didn't give Toyota anything, Toyota put in the work to get that speed and its up to the others to react.
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Everyone has a chance to spend money and build a better mousetrap and I never heard anyone calling for Toyota to get concessions when they went what seemed like a year between victories. I am not accusing anyone on this forum of being a jingoist or xenophobe but I do think that there are people that have an unfounded fear and dislike of Toyota. Just my 2 cents.
 
Formerjackman said:
I have NEVER understood that way of thought. It seems to me that you either like the sport or you do not. I can't imagine abandoning a sport just because my favorite player retired. Anybody that puts all of their eggs in one basket are just looking to be disappointed most of the time. I have been doing this for 36 years. I ALWAYS have a driver 1, a driver 2 and sometimes a driver 3.
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There's a BIG difference with auto racing though. Fans follow a TEAM in other sports. For the most part they follow an INDIVIDUAL in racing.
When Tom Brady retires I'll still be a Patriots fan. When Derek Jeter retired people didn't stop being Yankees fans. When players retire it doesn't dissolve the team.
When as driver retires they're gone. People didn't cheer for the #24 Hendrick Chevrolet. They cheered for Jeff Gordon.
 
Simple Fan said:
While I can understand that it hasn't stopped Toyota from changing their car and Ford and Chevy could do the same but haven't. This new car is supposed to look more like its street counterpart and Toyota has embraced that and also made changes the street model Camry that would help with racing. That is great for the sport and something Chevy is also looking to do now that they can get away from the SS.
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Toyota got to change their race car bodies because their street car was due for a new body and Toyota likely spent a couple hundred million dollars doing it. You don't just change bodies year to year to help out your NASCAR teams, the cost is PROHIBITIVELY expensive. Chevy will get to change their body next year ONLY because the SS is no longer in production. This is NOT as simple as "we got beat on the race track this year, so we will do a new body next year". It doesn't work like that anymore at all.
 
Johnny G said:
There's a BIG difference with auto racing though. Fans follow a TEAM in other sports. For the most part they follow an INDIVIDUAL in racing.
When Tom Brady retires I'll still be a Patriots fan. When Derek Jeter retired people didn't stop being Yankees fans. When players retire it doesn't dissolve the team.
When as driver retires they're gone. People didn't cheer for the #24 Hendrick Chevrolet. They cheered for Jeff Gordon.
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I was a Hendrick Motorsports fan when Jeff Gordon was driving quarter midgets. I was a GM/Chevy fan when nobody ever heard of Rick Hendrick. If you confine yourself to just rooting for a particular driver, you are going to be unhappy a lot and have a short lifespan as a racing fan.. Drivers come and go, always have, always will. Maybe now more than ever. Jeff Gordon would have NEVER got my support if he wasn't driving a Chevy, and the fact that he was in a Hendrick Chevy just sealed the deal. I beagn following Jimmie Johnson in the ASA series because I liked his crew chief AND he was driving a Chevy. The fact that he ended up at HMS was just one of those million to one deals.
 
Formerjackman said:
Toyota got to change their race car bodies because their street car was due for a new body and Toyota likely spent a couple hundred million dollars doing it. You don't just change bodies year to year to help out your NASCAR teams, the cost is PROHIBITIVELY expensive. Chevy will get to change their body next year ONLY because the SS is no longer in production. This is NOT as simple as "we got beat on the race track this year, so we will do a new body next year". It doesn't work like that anymore at all.
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I'm not saying it does but with this new body it allows for that type of thing to occur more often. Toyota has changed their bodies a few times in the last several years and are really invested in the sport that they aren't afraid to take those risk with the street cars. I don't think Ford is invested in racing as much as Toyota or Chevy and that is what the problem is, not Toyota being given an advantage.
 
Simple Fan said:
I'm not saying it does but with this new body it allows for that type of thing to occur more often. Toyota has changed their bodies a few times in the last several years and are really invested in the sport that they aren't afraid to take those risk with the street cars. I don't think Ford is invested in racing as much as Toyota or Chevy and that is what the problem is, not Toyota being given an advantage.
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Once again, the 2018 racing Camry got updated ONLY because the 2108 street Camry got updated, and that had NOTHING to do with NASCAR. Now it IS likely that while designing the new street body, the engineers huddled together and looked at things that would help the racing body. I guess somebody will have to refresh my memory on why the other Camry changes were made, I don't remember. Chevy is only getting a new body because they have no choice, and Ford will get one as soon as corporate decides the current Fusion needs freshening up OR they switch their Cup car to a Mustang, as has been suggested. As I have said, NASCAR is NOT likely allow anybody to have a new body JUST because they are getting beat on the track. Thus, if Toyota DID manage a way to slip one by NASCAR, ONLY NASCAR can fix the problem. I say they take all the cars to a wind tunnel and PUBLISH the results AND the engineering analysis for each car.
 
Formerjackman said:
They want the hard work to be limited to the areas I mentioned. If you spend 10,000 man hours trying to develop a spring package that makes your car a tenth faster, NASCAR has no issue with that.
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No quit in this oneo_O
 
Formerjackman said:
Thus, if Toyota DID manage a way to slip one by NASCAR, ONLY NASCAR can fix the problem. I say they take all the cars to a wind tunnel and PUBLISH the results AND the engineering analysis for each car.
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That is the smelly part. They usually do that after the Michigan race. Not sure I am buying the broken wind tunnel story and if it was true, why weren't arrangements made for another tunnel to be used. It isn't like there aren't any, all big teams have access to them. They used a new inspection system body mapping gizmo at Chicagoland, but didn't use it on the cars that are in the playoffs? Another smelly part.
 
Formerjackman said:
I say they take all the cars to a wind tunnel and PUBLISH the results AND the engineering analysis for each car.
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I like that the cars look a bit similar to the street cars and don't have a problem if one car performs better in a wind tunnel. That's the hard work that the manufacturer has put in on the race car. If one manufacturer finds an advantage not given, its up to the others to react. I'm all for brand identity with these cars and think NASCAR has done a good job with it.

I'm not saying that these manufacture's have freewill to change their cars but with this car comes that possibility along with NASCAR allowing the cars to race before that model even hits the streets. Toyota takes advantage of these opportunities and I don't think Ford cares enough to make changes to the street Fusion as I don't think they are fully invested in racing. It's an ugly car and the Mustang isn't to much prettier in my opinion. Similar front end but with a bit more features to it it might work for them. Can't wait to see those Camaros on the track.
 
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Simple Fan said:
I like that the cars look a bit similar to the street cars and don't have a problem if one car performs better in a wind tunnel. That's the hard work that the manufacturer has put in on the race car. If one manufacturer finds an advantage not given, its up to the others to react.
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That isn't the way it works in Nascar. The cars are made as similar as possible in the wind tunnel off season. Changes are made to make it so. A second check is done after Michigan. Besides sweeping changes to the cars this year with splitters and rear spoilers, a new front end for the Toyota, they haven't checked them again after Michigan. It is what it is, another Nascar inconsistency. They did this twice last year Nada this year.
https://www.nascar.com/en_us/news-m...nascar-inspection-post-pocono-evaluation.html
 
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