The People vs NASCAR

Does Solunar come into play? My area of non-expertise lay mostly in water. However, I heard Jr hinting at successful Vortex Theory today due to highly abrasive track cheese shredder where light droplets can go to hide pot holes, heat in the tire burning off light moisture barometric humidity, constant carousel of cars air drying air titans but race cars at slack tide etc.

Seems delicate subject where one might get lost in the finer points via sciency.
I agree and just a change in the humidity would upset normal conventions and create invortexisms.

Properly explaining it all would require a whole new series of lectures. And that doesn't even count the part about having to prove that vortex issues were not created by the track in Dallas Texas. The people in Fort Worth just will not let the origins of the Dallas Vortexan,'s myth go.
 
^ One of Bernoulli‘s disciples.
This really made me laugh.
1626089666939.gif
 
I get Nascar's stance on this. Let's be honest what valuable input are drivers going to give about design when it comes to safety? Besides Neuman no drivers have a degree in engineering and are likely not capable of doing finite element analysis and structural design. IMO leave the design to the experts and when you have hard data from the crash tests share that with the drivers. At this point drivers really have no more input than "we want a safe car". I think this is one of those deals that nascar really can't win. If they release preliminary stuff they'll get beat up for something that isn't even the finished product because in so many cases minor tweaks to design make huge differences when things fail. If they don't release anything they get accused of being uncooperative and hiding something. Let's remember 99% of the time the sanctioning body has to be the voice of reason when it comes to safety because teams will almost always choose speed over safety.

Now the argument could be made that some of the head designers, engineers and safety guys from the teams should be involved in this as they likely have some valuable input. But didn't that already happen to a degree when RCR built the first couple of cars at their shop?
 
I get Nascar's stance on this. Let's be honest what valuable input are drivers going to give about design when it comes to safety? Besides Neuman no drivers have a degree in engineering and are likely not capable of doing finite element analysis and structural design. IMO leave the design to the experts and when you have hard data from the crash tests share that with the drivers. At this point drivers really have no more input than "we want a safe car". I think this is one of those deals that nascar really can't win. If they release preliminary stuff they'll get beat up for something that isn't even the finished product because in so many cases minor tweaks to design make huge differences when things fail. If they don't release anything they get accused of being uncooperative and hiding something. Let's remember 99% of the time the sanctioning body has to be the voice of reason when it comes to safety because teams will almost always choose speed over safety.

Now the argument could be made that some of the head designers, engineers and safety guys from the teams should be involved in this as they likely have some valuable input. But didn't that already happen to a degree when RCR built the first couple of cars at their shop?
The changes to Atlanta aren’t being made in the pursuit of a safer racing environment.
 
next year is make or break,
older fans and drivers are ready to ditch nascar,
life is too short to waste weekends watching 15 plate races.
i will be cutting back to short tracks and true road courses.
i hope the new car helps, but nascar has truly lost its way.
 
I agree and just a change in the humidity would upset normal conventions and create invortexisms.

Properly explaining it all would require a whole new series of lectures. And that doesn't even count the part about having to prove that vortex issues were not created by the track in Dallas Texas. The people in Fort Worth just will not let the origins of the Dallas Vortexan,'s myth go.
I think you left out a very important aero theory. DW's boogidy, boodigy spinning vortex rain suppression theory. We must not ignore that in the future...playoff implications.
 
I get Nascar's stance on this. Let's be honest what valuable input are drivers going to give about design when it comes to safety? Besides Neuman no drivers have a degree in engineering and are likely not capable of doing finite element analysis and structural design. IMO leave the design to the experts and when you have hard data from the crash tests share that with the drivers. At this point drivers really have no more input than "we want a safe car". I think this is one of those deals that nascar really can't win. If they release preliminary stuff they'll get beat up for something that isn't even the finished product because in so many cases minor tweaks to design make huge differences when things fail. If they don't release anything they get accused of being uncooperative and hiding something. Let's remember 99% of the time the sanctioning body has to be the voice of reason when it comes to safety because teams will almost always choose speed over safety.

Now the argument could be made that some of the head designers, engineers and safety guys from the teams should be involved in this as they likely have some valuable input. But didn't that already happen to a degree when RCR built the first couple of cars at their shop?
(Long post warning but I am not goofing around with this one).

I agree with a lot of what you say. For example I dont like restictor plates and there are a countless number of drivers who have said the same thing. In the same vein I miss things like they were in the 60s through the 80s at the Indianapolis 500 too, with new innovations and beastly cars that made every May or year seemingly different from the previous one. The same can be said with the Cup and F1 cars from the same time frame.

But I am willingly to give all that up to prevent or at least limit any the Dale Earnhardt, Gordon Smiley and the countless other fatalities that occurred as a result.
More importantly racing promoters can never allow another Lemans 1955 type horror show to ever happen again again, it would be a criminal offense and it should be.

The whole idea of running races is enough to question a promoters sanity when one considers the liability and complaints they endure. There is a track within an hour of my house that didn't run this past Saturday night due to an out control car that lost steering the week before and crashed into the infeild. It killed one adult, seriously injured a child and at least one other person. The track also is being investigated by local officials as well, and regardless of the outcome a heartbroken driver and promoter will remain as a part of the greater tragedy.

To a lesser degree a promoters job is also thankless one on many other levels. Drivers are almost always pissed off at them and they usually have a long list of grievances about being wronged if you ever get them started.

I truly respect the drivers, they are living and doing the dream that was my passion. But you just have to accept that they have a lot of complaints, and they would tell you about the conspiracy theory against them if given the time. The corporate pressure is the only thing that muffles the bitterness, that's the way it has always been and always will be.

Fans snarking them isn't new either, and it didn't start with the internet. I remember the complaints in 1970s and it was a common or routine thing.
Every adult I knew that followed racing seemed to have a but Nascar should have done it some other way set of comments, plus complaints about favoritism. The complaining was also rampant at my local track (GPS) too along with all of the tracks I have followed. There was also some back then in 70s that told me they used to follow Nascar but they didn't anymore for reasons, so that one isn't new either.

I am not a Nascar lackie and I don't agree with everything they do. I really wish Nascar was all about high horsepower with bias ply tires that rewarded more tire management along with the raw speed. I would even be willing to accept chicanes or whatever to limit the speeds at the 1.5 mile or bigger tracks when needed to accommodate the extra HP.
I also wish that the current cars looked more unique or less generic than they do with most all the current major sanctioning bodies. There should be more than just paint schemes to differentiate the cars, it is just not obvious enough imo.

But I know what I want isn't realistic, there is no way a sanctioning body could ever develop a set of rules to accommodate and manage all the innovations and everyone's unique wish list. We would also be several generations beyond a twisted sister car without some common templates.

Racing is a lot like life, it would be great if compromises were not needed. But it is an impossible dream just try to enjoy the good stuff while you can almost nothing stays the same.
 
(Long post warning but I am not goofing around with this one).

I agree with a lot of what you say. For example I dont like restictor plates and there are a countless number of drivers who have said the same thing. In the same vein I miss things like they were in the 60s through the 80s at the Indianapolis 500 too, with new innovations and beastly cars that made every May or year seemingly different from the previous one. The same can be said with the Cup and F1 cars from the same time frame.

But I am willingly to give all that up to prevent or at least limit any the Dale Earnhardt, Gordon Smiley and the countless other fatalities that occurred as a result.
More importantly racing promoters can never allow another Lemans 1955 type horror show to ever happen again again, it would be a criminal offense and it should be.

The whole idea of running races is enough to question a promoters sanity when one considers the liability and complaints they endure. There is a track within an hour of my house that didn't run this past Saturday night due to an out control car that lost steering the week before and crashed into the infeild. It killed one adult, seriously injured a child and at least one other person. The track also is being investigated by local officials as well, and regardless of the outcome a heartbroken driver and promoter will remain as a part of the greater tragedy.

To a lesser degree a promoters job is also thankless one on many other levels. Drivers are almost always pissed off at them and they usually have a long list of grievances about being wronged if you ever get them started.

I truly respect the drivers, they are living and doing the dream that was my passion. But you just have to accept that they have a lot of complaints, and they would tell you about the conspiracy theory against them if given the time. The corporate pressure is the only thing that muffles the bitterness, that's the way it has always been and always will be.

Fans snarking them isn't new either, and it didn't start with the internet. I remember the complaints in 1970s and it was a common or routine thing.
Every adult I knew that followed racing seemed to have a but Nascar should have done it some other way set of comments, plus complaints about favoritism. The complaining was also rampant at my local track (GPS) too along with all of the tracks I have followed. There was also some back then in 70s that told me they used to follow Nascar but they didn't anymore for reasons, so that one isn't new either.

I am not a Nascar lackie and I don't agree with everything they do. I really wish Nascar was all about high horsepower with bias ply tires that rewarded more tire management along with the raw speed. I would even be willing to accept chicanes or whatever to limit the speeds at the 1.5 mile or bigger tracks when needed to accommodate the extra HP.
I also wish that the current cars looked more unique or less generic than they do with most all the current major sanctioning bodies. There should be more than just paint schemes to differentiate the cars, it is just not obvious enough imo.

But I know what I want isn't realistic, there is no way a sanctioning body could ever develop a set of rules to accommodate and manage all the innovations and everyone's unique wish list. We would also be several generations beyond a twisted sister car without some common templates.

Racing is a lot like life, it would be great if compromises were not needed. But it is an impossible dream just try to enjoy the good stuff while you can almost nothing stays the same.
It took 90 posts before someone actually hit the nail on the head. Great post Greg.
 
next year is make or break,
older fans and drivers are ready to ditch nascar,
life is too short to waste weekends watching 15 plate races.
i will be cutting back to short tracks and true road courses.
i hope the new car helps, but nascar has truly lost its way.
In case you haven't noticed, a huge majority of fans are over the age of 40.
 
In case you haven't noticed, a huge majority of fans are over the age of 40.
I guess that means that we are all going to ditch it. Who knew?
 
NASCAR's mistake in all of this was that they tried to listen to the fans in the first place without operationally defining who the fan base is, was, or will be. Jeff Gluck (who I think is excellent BTW) has a widely cited non-scientific poll that is used by some if not many as a metric for what a "good race" is. Who is answering this poll, and what does it mean anyway? In some respects, NASCAR wants the old school fan (Throw Back Weekend)....and then in others, it seeks the new fan--pack racing and wrecks I guess. The assumptions are that attention spans are shorter (I argue this), and that the car culture is dead (again, I argue this). If, in fact, these assumptions are what NASCAR is using, how did they get there? NASCAR Radio? Dear God, I hope not. Gluck? Again, love the guy, but the poll is BS. Ratings? I sometimes wonder if they look to their highest ratings--Daytona--and then make competition decisions to make every weekend Daytona. Don't know, and I can't figure it out. Here's what I know.....The drivers who are bitching about everything are cutting their own throats. Their fan bases will hate with them....the difference, the fan bases aren't making millions. When the fans leave out of loyalty to a driver who has proclaimed the series crap, the drivers will not be making millions anymore. Duh! NASCAR didn't consult the drivers on anything because they didn't want the answer the drivers would give. They don't want to hear what the drivers feel the sport is because that isn't what--in NASCAR's view--this new fan base wants. As Kyle noted yesterday, sometimes you are going to have a guy hit it right, and win by 10 seconds. That fascinates the **** out of me, but angers others. Look at this board. Can anybody operationally define what we want here? Then, how the hell can anybody else?
 
If, in fact, these assumptions are what NASCAR is using, how did they get there?

They get there by listening to the tracks and TV networks, and other financial influences. Unfortunately, a lot of these voices and decision makers are just casual racing fans themselves, and they assume they know what it best for NASCAR or they only have their own financial interests in mind. So all these people talk about what changes are needed and NASCAR comes to a conclusion, then they "study" the results of focus groups or surveys that are clearly skewed to satisfy the result they are seeking. If their changes work, NASCAR takes the credit. If they fail, they point to the data and say they were trying to appease the fanbase.
 
I didn't bother to watch Atlanta but did have a great time at Colorado National Speedway Saturday night. NASCAR has killed the sport with their gimmicks and pursiut of casual fans.
 
I think nascar has so much to learn from SRX. They had 1.33 million people tune in to watch essentially a exhibition race on a 1/4 track in Wisconsin on Saturday night. Its pretty clear what type of racing fans want.

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NASCAR's mistake in all of this was that they tried to listen to the fans in the first place without operationally defining who the fan base is, was, or will be. Jeff Gluck (who I think is excellent BTW) has a widely cited non-scientific poll that is used by some if not many as a metric for what a "good race" is. Who is answering this poll, and what does it mean anyway? In some respects, NASCAR wants the old school fan (Throw Back Weekend)....and then in others, it seeks the new fan--pack racing and wrecks I guess. The assumptions are that attention spans are shorter (I argue this), and that the car culture is dead (again, I argue this). If, in fact, these assumptions are what NASCAR is using, how did they get there? NASCAR Radio? Dear God, I hope not. Gluck? Again, love the guy, but the poll is BS. Ratings? I sometimes wonder if they look to their highest ratings--Daytona--and then make competition decisions to make every weekend Daytona. Don't know, and I can't figure it out. Here's what I know.....The drivers who are bitching about everything are cutting their own throats. Their fan bases will hate with them....the difference, the fan bases aren't making millions. When the fans leave out of loyalty to a driver who has proclaimed the series crap, the drivers will not be making millions anymore. Duh! NASCAR didn't consult the drivers on anything because they didn't want the answer the drivers would give. They don't want to hear what the drivers feel the sport is because that isn't what--in NASCAR's view--this new fan base wants. As Kyle noted yesterday, sometimes you are going to have a guy hit it right, and win by 10 seconds. That fascinates the **** out of me, but angers others. Look at this board. Can anybody operationally define what we want here? Then, how the hell can anybody else?
Nascar has no clue who are the fanbase or what the fanbase wants.
That’s why the endless, floundering changes.
 
I think nascar has so much to learn from SRX. They had 1.33 million people tune in to watch essentially a exhibition race on a 1/4 track in Wisconsin on Saturday night. Its pretty clear what type of racing fans want.

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I believe the newness will wear off quickly and the ratings will drop.
Time will tell ⏳
 
I believe the newness will wear off quickly and the ratings will drop.
Time will tell
After the action they saw this past week I can't see why people would stop watching

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I think nascar has so much to learn from SRX. They had 1.33 million people tune in to watch essentially a exhibition race on a 1/4 track in Wisconsin on Saturday night. Its pretty clear what type of racing fans want.

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What’s NASCAR going to do on a quarter-mile track? Pardon me if I sound skeptical about takeaways from a series that can’t beat reruns on other broadcast networks every week. If they were on cable they wouldn’t outrate the Trucks.
 
I think nascar has so much to learn from SRX. They had 1.33 million people tune in to watch essentially a exhibition race on a 1/4 track in Wisconsin on Saturday night. Its pretty clear what type of racing fans want.

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I don't see what Nascar would learn myself. They are two widely different series. Racing in front of 10,000 fans and trying to fit 40 cars and room for all of their support equipment? How is that going to work. SRX is it's own animal. Drivers don't have to suck up to sponsors or car owners, it a fun competition with none or very little money on the line. It's supposed to be fun entertainment and it is working
 
Not sure if I ever mentioned it or not, but some smoking hawt trophy queens are always good for moral, and just making life (aka racing) better.
 
@Speedbowl14 I've had the same concerns for the past couple years now in terms of car supply for the local level. Street stocks and late models that are based on the GM metric chassis, well how many 80s Monte Carlos are left in 2021? Same with the cheap old 4 cylinders like you said, that doesn't exist anymore and really hasn't since Cash 4 Clunkers sent a lot of those cars to the crusher. Those cars are a finite resource and on one hand it's too expensive to tell everybody at the roots level that all the sudden they need to replace their G-body Chevy with something else. But also you have to hit that point eventually and rip it off like a band-aid because what they've been running for so many years now isn't going to be sustainable in the relatively near future. Do they go to just a spec budget chassis from certified suppliers where you order one as a catalogue item? I don't know the answer to that, but it needs to be planned for NOW, not dealt with in five or ten more years. You're spot on that the future is hitting this sport FAST and it's gonna get ugly.

Stafford is also my home track and I always wonder how this is going to continue into the future because with how outdated the cars are and how expensive it is per year just to run a late model every Friday, how many young people are going to carry that torch here in another ten years? Very few people can afford to race even the budget weekly divisions just as a hobby, and with interest in stockcar racing on the decline in general I think it doesn't bode well for the future.
 
Jeff Gluck is the one who stated that the drivers “as a group” were more outspoken about the lack of communication, but Jeff has yet to release any of the audio or video he caught of it. So far, Pockrass is the only one to release video on the subject from Hamlin, Harvick, and Keselowski.

Maybe throughout the week Gluck will follow up on his original tweet.
 
I don't see what Nascar would learn myself. They are two widely different series. Racing in front of 10,000 fans and trying to fit 40 cars and room for all of their support equipment? How is that going to work. SRX is it's own animal. Drivers don't have to suck up to sponsors or car owners, it a fun competition with none or very little money on the line. It's supposed to be fun entertainment and it is working

I'm not saying take them to a 1/4 mile track and try to put 40 cars (or trucks on it). My point is you can go to smaller short tracks and get huge fan support and bring back the grassroots fan. Right now I feel there's such a disconnect from anything nascar and the grassroots fan. They need to encourage drivers, or better yet develop a program that gets well known drivers to some of these local short tracks and bring back fan engagement (heck even having them show up for meet and greets). Larson is doing a lot more for this than most people could ever imagine. I would have to think chase running SRX Saturday will do the same.

Also SRX makes it pretty clear that you need to have personalities and rivals in racing. Both are pretty much nonexistent right now in nascar.

We have a 2 week break in the schedule coming up, why are we not getting these guys out doing stuff on the local level?

IMO the trucks shouldn't be racing at anything over 1 mile tracks and there's no need for them to have live pit stops period. It doesn't help the show when a faster guy loses because another teams outspends him on pit road.

I get it that Cup is Cup and it's the big show, but why are we not doing something in Xfinity and Trucks to get back to our roots and gain more fan engagement?

Why do we keep going to these places to try to get a "market" in areas of big cities where fan support is terrible? Go where the fans want you and will show up.
 
They get there by listening to the tracks and TV networks, and other financial influences. Unfortunately, a lot of these voices and decision makers are just casual racing fans themselves, and they assume they know what it best for NASCAR or they only have their own financial interests in mind. So all these people talk about what changes are needed and NASCAR comes to a conclusion, then they "study" the results of focus groups or surveys that are clearly skewed to satisfy the result they are seeking. If their changes work, NASCAR takes the credit. If they fail, they point to the data and say they were trying to appease the fanbase.
NASCAR has been on their heels trying to recapture the ratings of the late 90's. Instead of selling the sport to the money dudes--cool cars, and the magic that is a driver interfacing with machine--it went the way of what the drivers eat for breakfast. The cars and the racing has become incidental IMO. IMO, here what I think NASCAR should have done: 1) Sell the race to the money dudes....2) If the race is a blowout...sell the cars--bring back my boy Tim Brewer...3) If the race is that much of a blowout, and content is needed, sell the talent of the drivers (kind of what happens today with Jr. and Letarte--NOT Bowyer and Gordon. If none of that sells, trim budget & lower expectations. What NASCAR is trying to do is to manufacture Game 7 moments every week. That isn't going to work. This sport has many layers IMO, and NASCAR is obsessed with one. This makes the sport shallow, and steers new fans down a one lane road. My two cents.
 
I'm not saying take them to a 1/4 mile track and try to put 40 cars (or trucks on it). My point is you can go to smaller short tracks and get huge fan support and bring back the grassroots fan. Right now I feel there's such a disconnect from anything nascar and the grassroots fan. They need to encourage drivers, or better yet develop a program that gets well known drivers to some of these local short tracks and bring back fan engagement (heck even having them show up for meet and greets). Larson is doing a lot more for this than most people could ever imagine. I would have to think chase running SRX Saturday will do the same.

Also SRX makes it pretty clear that you need to have personalities and rivals in racing. Both are pretty much nonexistent right now in nascar.

We have a 2 week break in the schedule coming up, why are we not getting these guys out doing stuff on the local level?

IMO the trucks shouldn't be racing at anything over 1 mile tracks and there's no need for them to have live pit stops period. It doesn't help the show when a faster guy loses because another teams outspends him on pit road.

I get it that Cup is Cup and it's the big show, but why are we not doing something in Xfinity and Trucks to get back to our roots and gain more fan engagement?

Why do we keep going to these places to try to get a "market" in areas of big cities where fan support is terrible? Go where the fans want you and will show up.

The trucks just went to a smaller track, had well known dirt and pavement drivers in the race, how did that go? Judging from that, they would be broke in a season. There are a number of pavement racing series racing on small pavement tracks that are just squeaking by or are pretty much gone and the Nascar trucks would have to compete with that level? When the trucks went to Eldora with easily twice as many fans as Knoxville, TV coverage, the works, the teams racing the trucks lost money. How long would that work if the teams are losing money? I just don't see it myself.
 
Is this thread The Fans vs NASCAR or Drivers vs NASCAR because I thought it started out as to how drivers were angry and felt out of the loop
 
Is this thread The Fans vs NASCAR or Drivers vs NASCAR because I thought it started out as to how drivers were angry and felt out of the loop
Supposed to be about what the drivers and teams were saying ie “The People ” and the door kinda opened for fans to give the usual pulpified horse complaints of the last 20 years.

I’m still trying to find more info from the meeting Gluck referenced.
 
Supposed to be about what the drivers and teams were saying ie “The People ” and the door kinda opened for fans to give the usual pulpified horse complaints of the last 20 years.

I’m still trying to find more info from the meeting Gluck referenced.
Yea I give more credence to driver and team owner complaints rather than my own complaints that I have had since 2004 or so. If drivers and teams have an issue I dont know why its being brushed off by posters on here and some media members. I figured once I saw the title of this thread all hell would break loose with those voicing their own grievances that they usually do weekly on here.
 
The reason there isn't any conspiracy is because there isn't one. Save for a few chronic complainers who are always complaining, the overwhelming majority of teams and drivers aren't having those problems.
 
NASCAR's mistake in all of this was that they tried to listen to the fans in the first place without operationally defining who the fan base is, was, or will be. Jeff Gluck (who I think is excellent BTW) has a widely cited non-scientific poll that is used by some if not many as a metric for what a "good race" is. Who is answering this poll, and what does it mean anyway? In some respects, NASCAR wants the old school fan (Throw Back Weekend)....and then in others, it seeks the new fan--pack racing and wrecks I guess. The assumptions are that attention spans are shorter (I argue this), and that the car culture is dead (again, I argue this). If, in fact, these assumptions are what NASCAR is using, how did they get there? NASCAR Radio? Dear God, I hope not. Gluck? Again, love the guy, but the poll is BS. Ratings? I sometimes wonder if they look to their highest ratings--Daytona--and then make competition decisions to make every weekend Daytona. Don't know, and I can't figure it out. Here's what I know.....The drivers who are bitching about everything are cutting their own throats. Their fan bases will hate with them....the difference, the fan bases aren't making millions. When the fans leave out of loyalty to a driver who has proclaimed the series crap, the drivers will not be making millions anymore. Duh! NASCAR didn't consult the drivers on anything because they didn't want the answer the drivers would give. They don't want to hear what the drivers feel the sport is because that isn't what--in NASCAR's view--this new fan base wants. As Kyle noted yesterday, sometimes you are going to have a guy hit it right, and win by 10 seconds. That fascinates the **** out of me, but angers others. Look at this board. Can anybody operationally define what we want here? Then, how the hell can anybody else?

NASCAR has the fans they've cultivated.

They've been doing gimmicks and manufactured excitement for the past 18 years, pursuing new fans at the risk of alienating longtime fans, and here we are. They have fans who expect the race to come down to a thrilling two-lap shootout, expect championships to come down to the final restart of the final race, fans who expect big crashes and side-by-side pack racing.

NASCAR doesn't know what they want to be because the fanbase is so divided. Some people like to watch drivers wheel a racecar and fight it all day, even if the end result is an old fashioned asswhooping. Others want 75 lead changes every week. And others want this NA18D **** where the cars are full throttle wide open all the way around the track because the intervals give an illusion of the field being closer and the races being better.
 
NASCAR has been on their heels trying to recapture the ratings of the late 90's. Instead of selling the sport to the money dudes--cool cars, and the magic that is a driver interfacing with machine--it went the way of what the drivers eat for breakfast. The cars and the racing has become incidental IMO. IMO, here what I think NASCAR should have done: 1) Sell the race to the money dudes....2) If the race is a blowout...sell the cars--bring back my boy Tim Brewer...3) If the race is that much of a blowout, and content is needed, sell the talent of the drivers (kind of what happens today with Jr. and Letarte--NOT Bowyer and Gordon. If none of that sells, trim budget & lower expectations. What NASCAR is trying to do is to manufacture Game 7 moments every week. That isn't going to work. This sport has many layers IMO, and NASCAR is obsessed with one. This makes the sport shallow, and steers new fans down a one lane road. My two cents.
Nailed it.
 
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