Matthew2470
It's not that serious
People lie about intent. When it comes to engines they don't play.
Thoughts on Matt Kenseth's Fine
- Thread starter dirtguru
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People lie about intent. When it comes to engines they don't play.
FenderBumper
The "good old days" ??
Err, there's no lying about acid dipping sheet metal or shaving frame rails. I say double the fines in those clear cases of outright cheating vs going slightly over some line.
Ding, ding, ding --- we have a winner.
How on Earth would NASCAR judge "intent"?
From day one, NASCAR has never budged on engine rules. It's either legal, or it's not. PERIOD.
ted@economy
in the interest of equal time
That's kinda where I was going with my comment about Nascar , team owners and sponsors getting together and looking at penalties in general ( not rules just penalties). I think they should look at it together , instead of just escalating and escalating . There may be some other way , there may not.
ted, one thing about escalation of penalties, it will get the attention of the teams. In the past, penalties were not this onerous. IMO, they really didn't deter anything.
Zerkfitting
Team Owner
The team/engine builder know the minimum weight requirement so there is no excuse for an under weight part. Reducing the rotating mass in an engine is significant, even by a small amount. I think the maximum point deduction for any illegal part should be the points gained for the race and in this case credit for the win or possibly banning the team from competition for the next race. I'm a Kensith fan and I'm not happy with this situation.
ted@economy
in the interest of equal time
I agree ,for sure . I'm just wondering how far they can go , and if other solutions can be found . I know , growing up , that teachers smacking me didn't do much good .
KevinWI
Oldest Operating Motor Speedway In The World
I think the fine is outrageous.
Michael Waltrip gets caught putting nitro in his engine or whatever "rocket fuel" was at Daytona in '07 and gets fined 100 points under the old system (51.2% of points possible per race).
Kenseth's connecting rods were barely underweight and he gets fined 50 points under the new system (104.1% of points possible per race).
It's totally outrageous. Though, it is obvious that Helton is trying to close the vice on all the crazy cheating so far this season.
Michael Waltrip gets caught putting nitro in his engine or whatever "rocket fuel" was at Daytona in '07 and gets fined 100 points under the old system (51.2% of points possible per race).
Kenseth's connecting rods were barely underweight and he gets fined 50 points under the new system (104.1% of points possible per race).
It's totally outrageous. Though, it is obvious that Helton is trying to close the vice on all the crazy cheating so far this season.
Nitro Dude
Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
If you bought a used car and you got pulled over going home and the cops found something illegal in the car and threw the book at you...is that fair and did the penalty fit the crime? Remember, all you did was buy the darn car.
I can see where you're going, Nitro. But NASCAR has to draw the line somewhere. If they followed the chain back to the supplier, how do they punish the infraction of the rules?
The teams would start claiming that ever faulty part was the result of supplier failure. That would open a huge can of worms. As unreasonable as the 20 team penalty sounds, it is the only way NASCAR can uphold the rules.
The teams would start claiming that ever faulty part was the result of supplier failure. That would open a huge can of worms. As unreasonable as the 20 team penalty sounds, it is the only way NASCAR can uphold the rules.
mike honcho
Knuckleheads
I like how Matt says there is no performance advantage?? If you lessen the rotating mass of the engine doesn't it get up to max rpm's faster???Didn't he barely beat Kasey this past week with that cheated up engine?
Nitro Dude
Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
Even if the rod was weighed wrong when it was manufactured, I would hate to be the person that built that engine and signed off on it. "Lucy has a lot of explaining to do." You younger generation that didn't watch I love lucy may not understand that catch phrase.
Matthew2470
It's not that serious
You are bringing irrelevant information. This is about engines.
Matthew2470
It's not that serious
Some of the other rods weighed well over.
2.7 grams on a minimum 525g part wouldn't impact performance.
mike honcho
Knuckleheads
Got a link to that???
I bet on a NASCAR engine if there is a minimum weight on a part.There is not alot of parts that weigh "well over".Especially in the crank,rods or piston parts.
1
#17D500winner
Guest
If I buy a car (new or used) and the last person who test drove it left a gram of coke in it, you can be sure that I'd be fully responsible.
Nitro Dude
Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
I understand what you are saying also,TRL and I realize Nascar is in a tough position here. But I just feel they need to be harder on TRD and not as hard on JGR or any other team if the team can't inspect the part in question before it is used. I just think that Nascar should have to prove a little more intent before handing down such a stiff penalty. I guess the teams are kind of at the mercy of the companys that build their engines.
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I dont know if the illegal part enhanced the performance of the engine and I dont care if the illegal part enhanced the performance of the engine. The operative word here is illegal. I for one agree with the decisions handed down by Nascar and my opinion is the engine is the holy grail of a race car and should not be messed with by anyone.
FenderBumper
The "good old days" ??
...yet you took the time to comment.
Context, my boy. Context.All this blather about not being able to judge intent is just a cover for nascar not bothering to reason some things out.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
I think it's too severe and would like to see it reduced a bit on appeal but I doubt that will happen. It's unfortunate they got hammered on what appears to be a case of small human oversight. In a perfect world, punishments would be handed down at least partially based on intent but I suppose doing that here could set a bad precedent and open Pandora's box to a whole new level of subjectivity in NASCAR.
C
Captain Coyfish
Guest
It wasn't Kenseth's fault, it wasn't Radcliffe's fault, it wasn't anyone's fault besides TRD. TRD should get punished, plus like a 10-15 point penalty for Kenseth.
FenderBumper
The "good old days" ??
Nitro Dude
Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
My personal opinion is that TRD or JGR did not intentionally cheat, because three grams is not going to make any difference in the performance of the engine, and that there was a mistake made when entering the weight of this rod at the manufacturing company and that the engine builder didn't catch the mistake when they built the engine. I work with the same type of parts all the time and it is not uncommon to find a mistake from the manufacturer either from building the part to mis-labeling when packaging. But, the engine builder dropped the ball because they should have caught the mistake before it was installed in the engine. I will bet that there will be a big change in the way that quality control is done at the manufacturer and at the engine builders company. You can bet that heads are going to roll.
G
getadietdew
Guest
I think they need to be fined more if they apill.
KevinWI
Oldest Operating Motor Speedway In The World
Yeah, the same should be true in the criminal justice system. You appeal, you get 5 years prison time added to your sentence!
There is no performance advantage to one connecting rod weighing 2 grams under spec.
The fact that TRD didn't catch it may be a glimpse into JGR's recent reliability issues. What else do they overlook?
It's unfortunate for Matt and for JGR. I hope they get some points back on the appeal.
The fact that TRD didn't catch it may be a glimpse into JGR's recent reliability issues. What else do they overlook?
It's unfortunate for Matt and for JGR. I hope they get some points back on the appeal.
Zerkfitting
Team Owner
That would be "Lucy has a lot of splaining to do."
Zerkfitting
Team Owner
The issue is not how much the part was underweight. Who's fault it is is not relevant. It is a team sport and the team supplied an illegal car and the team should be penalized. The real issue is how severe the penalty should be.
I don't think money is a deterrent. Lose of points gets attention. I don't think NASCAR should be suspending individual team members, the penalty should apply to the team.
I don't think money is a deterrent. Lose of points gets attention. I don't think NASCAR should be suspending individual team members, the penalty should apply to the team.
Nitro Dude
Hauler Driver and Cylinder Head Maintenance
The team may know the weight requirement, but there is no way they could have known that the rod didn't meet the weight requirement because they didn't build or tear that engine apart. Only TRD would have access to that info. I guess teams that build their engines in house have a lot less chance of this happening to them.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
I believe if you have all the blowing up unreliability problems that Toyota has, Kyle blew up two last week BTW. Toyota is proving to be unreliable on the race track. Gibbs has been sitting on his hands and now it cost him. He made the move to Toyota because he thought he was getting a better deal. How many of these problems does it take? Kenseth had a winning car earlier in the year and it blew up, both Toyotas for Gibbs had to start in the back another race. Now they can't build a motor in spec? Your job is to present a legal car for a race...you are responsible, you pay the price, not some waaaa my piece of crap supplier did it. You got three simple choices with a bad supplier, quit buying their product and switch to another supplier that can produce what you need, or fix their screw ups, or build it yourself
If you don't already build your own motors, choosing to start a competitive in-house engine program is not a simple choice.
hawg dawg
Team Owner
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trd in-house qc screw up. motors at that level usually have every single part weighed/mic'd /etc before assembly---regardless of mfg tag.
fines were a bit much imo. we'll see how appeal goes.
note--martin was fined 40 - 50 pts fer intake.......when pemberton was his cc...an lost championship....ta earhardt by 25 pts or so. in 1980's.
will kenseth now move ta #11 fer rest a' yr. ??
fines were a bit much imo. we'll see how appeal goes.
note--martin was fined 40 - 50 pts fer intake.......when pemberton was his cc...an lost championship....ta earhardt by 25 pts or so. in 1980's.
will kenseth now move ta #11 fer rest a' yr. ??
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
Then you would look hard at your other two options wouldn't you
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
man, you need a spell check or something
hawg dawg
Team Owner
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or maybe you need a new intake ??
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
well, I am trying to read what you say, because you do have good points, but it is really hard to piece it together for me anyway. If you are dyslexic, or learning disabled, my apologies.
KevinWI
Oldest Operating Motor Speedway In The World
I think when Gibbs moved to Toyota, part of the deal was that their in-house engine department would be merged with TRD anyway.
Don't think they would just put Kenseth in the #11 because the drivers have contracts with the sponsors and whatnot, but they could do a the old switcherroo for the owners points. That's been done a few times in the past. Just exchange the points that each points have. I think DEI did that when they bought Ginn in '07.
