What did you think of the Martinsville call?

What should NASCAR have done at the end of Martinsville?

  • They got it right, penalize Bell

    Votes: 14 31.8%

  • They should've penalized Bell and Byron

    Votes: 19 43.2%

  • They should've penalized just Byron

    Votes: 1 2.3%

  • Nobody should've been penalized.

    Votes: 10 22.7%
  • Total voters
    44
Formerjackman said:
If the 24 team had no knowledge of the manipulation (if it happened) how can you penalize them? Also, if the 1 and 3 were manipulation, then the 23 likely was too.
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Doesn't "Driver Code" enter the chat somewhere, or is that a thing of the past? I mean I hear so much about "racers." What exactly is a "racer." I thought they liked raced for every spot, and everything....I'm not sure this is a format issues as much as it is an issue of racing ethics...which has been a problem for some time? The bottom line once again is that if the big guns just did what they were supposed to do, we wouldn't be talking. Aaron Judge is not a World Champion because he **** the bed when his team needed him most. He did have a MVP season, however. Larson....the same.
 
Revman said:
Doesn't "Driver Code" enter the chat somewhere, or is that a thing of the past? I mean I hear so much about "racers." What exactly is a "racer." I thought they liked raced for every spot, and everything....I'm not sure this is a format issues as much as it is an issue of racing ethics...which has been a problem for some time? The bottom line once again is that if the big guns just did what they were supposed to do, we wouldn't be talking. Aaron Judge is not a World Champion because he **** the bed when his team needed him most. He did have a MVP season, however. Larson....the same.
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This isn't true though. Larson wouldn't have been in this spot if he didn't cut a tire at Homestead, or have pit road issues.

He went into his worst track in a must win, and almost won.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
This is pretty damning. And as a HMS/Chevy fan, pretty embarrassing. There need to be penalties across the board, manufacturers manipulating the outcome of this race
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And one of these guys already served a suspension for screaming “wreck him” at the end of Richmond.

Maybe at a minimum a lesson in discretion is needed at RCR.
 
Did Byron even know what they were doing? He was defending 2 lanes the majority of that video lol. Pretty funny how much faster the 1 and 3 were than him tho, they had to try like hell not to run him over
 
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Pain. But the worst part is that based on his average points per race, Larson would be up 58 heading into the finale, accounting the missed race.

And if we're points racing, he probably concedes the win and finishes second to Blaney last week which means... He would have had more than a full race lead heading into the finale.

Teams race differently, but it's tough to argue any team was as good as the 5 this year. This should be his second cup title.

Screw in. Throw him in NASCAR lol
 
jaqua19 said:
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Pain. But the worst part is that based on his average points per race, Larson would be up 58 heading into the finale, accounting the missed race.

And if we're points racing, he probably concedes the win and finishes second to Blaney last week which means... He would have had more than a full race lead heading into the finale.

Teams race differently, but it's tough to argue any team was as good as the 5 this year. This should be his second cup title.

Screw in. Throw him in NASCAR lol
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Same pain I felt in 04,07,14 with Gordon. Not a happy feeling.
 
Looking at the particular points system in post 217, I want to say what we have is a joke, but that isn't strong enough. What Nascar has is a tragedy. Fans are forced to believe the current calamity points system is a fair one. No way it is. It isn't one that rewards the best, the most skillful drivers. It doesn't remove the luck and the flukes as well as it can. No, it's filled with gaping holes that encourages cheating on a grand scale and the tragedy is that everybody, the owners, teams and the fans have to live with it .
 
The Bell wall ride was absolutely nothing like the Chastain deal.
That was a 100% total BS call by NASCAR.
If there are penalties for team orders, then both Bell and Byron get penalized.
Not sure what the NASCAR agenda is but that call may be one of the most stupid things I've seen out of them in a while, and man have there been some doozies.
Gibbs has every right to be livid.
 
I'm late to this discussion so not sure if it has been posted, but I think with all of this stuff it's important to look at the Nascar rule book and any precedent.

Sections 4.3.A; 4.4.C & 5.5 of the NASCAR Rule Book (Member Code of Conduct/Performance Obligation)

A: NASCAR requires its Competitor(s) to race at 100 percent of their ability with the goal of achieving their best possible finishing position in the Event.

B: Any Competitor(s) who takes action with the intent to Artificially Alter the finish positions of the Event or encourages, persuades or induces others to Artificially Alter the finish positions of the Event shall be subject to a penalty from NASCAR, as specified in Section 10 Violations and Disciplinary Action.

C: “Artificially Alter” shall be defined as the actions by any Competitor(s) that show or suggest that the Competitor(s) did not race at 100 percent of their ability for the purpose of changing finishing positions in the Event, in NASCAR’s sole discretion.


In 2022, Cole Custer and the 41 were penalized for faking a tire going down to try to help Briscoe make the cut-off at the Roval. Nascar fined the 41 team $100K, docked 50 owner points from the 41, and suspended the 41's crew chief indefinitely (but took no action as to the 14). Certainly it would seem that penalties to the 3 and the 1, and possibly the 23 are coming - if indeed Bubba did not have a tire issue.

But the rule seems to only allow penalty to the 24 if there's evidence that the 24 or HMS encouraged the action that the 3 and 1 took. Merely benefitting from it isn't "encourages, persuades, or induces". On the radio they referred to "the plan" but what is the origin of that and how far is Nascar willing to go down the rabbit hole?

It seems to me that they're going to keep the result on the basis that the 20 broke the safety rule and both manufacturer/teams were involved in shenanigans. But beyond that, will be interesting to see.




www.racingamerica.com

NASCAR Penalizes Cole Custer, SHR for Race Manipulation

NASCAR Penalizes Custer, SHR No. 41 for Race Manipulation The action did not affect playoff eliminations; team will appeal
www.racingamerica.com www.racingamerica.com
 
The situation is what it is now. Mostly because NASCAR has no oversight and has decided this is how they can make the most money. That is the broken reality.

I’m not naive about the history of NASCAR here I’m just saying that it wouldn’t be hard to have a clearer rule and penalty options for it. Penalties that eliminate the incentive to do it.
 
RaceCritter said:
The situation is what it is now. Mostly because NASCAR has no oversight and has decided this is how they can make the most money. That is the broken reality.

I’m not naive about the history of NASCAR here I’m just saying that it wouldn’t be hard to have a clearer rule and penalty options for it. Penalties that eliminate the incentive to do it.
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I have thought a lot about this, and I don't think it's as cynical as Nascar thinks this makes the most money so that's why they don't have a highly-structured penalty system for on-track activity. I think there's more to it than that. But I agree that it's time for Nascar to have a clearer rule about this and the way it will be penalized.

We have seen a slow evolution toward greater officiating, but Nascar's starting/base position on this has always been (to me at least) that policing on-track conduct is (1) often subjective and (2) takes time to resolve - and that process will muddle up the results. Nascar doesn't want to have officials trying to make "pass interference" type calls about what drivers may or may not have been intending to do, and Nascar wants results to be basically final at the end of a race (pending inspection). Not necessarily because this "makes more money" but because that's how Nascar has always been, policing on-track activity comes with a whole basket of challenges, and complicates race resolution.

I was really surprised when Nascar took away Austin Dillon's playoff qualification because I thought they would take the "we don't want to get into intent" position - but it shows that the playoff system and the increased stakes that come with it have changed the way Nascar views its officiating role. Yes, in the old-system we saw some "manipulation" that would fall short of the 100% rule if it had been in-place (like letting a contender teammate lead a lap to get a point, that was very common). But the cut-off scenarios now make everything so much more direct - the teams know the score and know what needs to happen in real-time. As competitors, they're going to do whatever they can within the rules to help their cause (including manufacturer).

I think this reality demands Nascar take a greater interest in officiating - it's just where we are in the sport now.
 
It was obvious the #1 and the #3 were faster than the #24. Both had multiple chances to pass the #24 and they didn't. That allowed 3 other cars to catch them, all of which were faster than the #24 at that point. But those couldn't get around the #1 or the #3 because they ran side-by-side for so long. To me, that violates the "100%" rule.
 
MRM said:
It was obvious the #1 and the #3 were faster than the #24. Both had multiple chances to pass the #24 and they didn't. That allowed 3 other cars to catch them, all of which were faster than the #24 at that point. But those couldn't get around the #1 or the #3 because they ran side-by-side for so long. To me, that violates the "100%" rule.
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Hard rule to enforce properly, would you call a car running at the back of the pack on it at a super speedway. Say like what Denny did at dega
 
Whiskyb said:
Hard rule to enforce properly, would you call a car running at the back of the pack on it at a super speedway. Say like what Denny did at dega
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Theoretically, that's a strategy call, an attempt to avoid the multi-car wrecks that are inevitable at a plate track. It's a strategy with a built-in penalty - lose the lead draft and you're in trouble.

What short-track strategy was being run by Dillon and Chastain?
 
I agree with those saying that if NASCAR doesn't issue penalties during the week then Phoenix is going to be a manufacturer/team orders circus from the first lap to the checkered flag.

If there's no incentive not to use your manufacturer teammates as blockers, then why shouldn't you make the call to keep your non-championship cars out on old tires every yellow, or stay out long under green to purposely try to hold up the leader you're racing against? It'll be ridiculous if that's allowed to happen.
 
There is no way in he!! the 24 didn't know what was going on with the one and three behind them, you don't think other teams don't listen to the radio from other teams. RCR and HMS have an engine program together.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Theoretically, that's a strategy call, an attempt to avoid the multi-car wrecks that are inevitable at a plate track. It's a strategy with a built-in penalty - lose the lead draft and you're in trouble.

What short-track strategy was being run by Dillon and Chastain?
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If points mattered for them at this point, you can argue that they didn’t want to put themselves in position to be dumped by Byron who would have had the motive to do whatever it took to keep his 1 point advantage over Bell.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Theoretically, that's a strategy call, an attempt to avoid the multi-car wrecks that are inevitable at a plate track. It's a strategy with a built-in penalty - lose the lead draft and you're in trouble.

What short-track strategy was being run by Dillon and Chastain?
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Oh, Im not supporting the 1&3. I dont like that style of driving either. Im just saying there are many example of the not giving it 100%
 
I don’t think you can worry about what happened yesterday as it’s just what NASCAR has become. One week they’ll throw a yellow for an incident and the next week ignore the same thing. Race control seems to be run by Montessori students & we’ve all seen how nonsensical Nascar has been for decades. One week an uncontrolled wheel on pit road can cause a caution and the next they’ll throw the green flag when a wheel is bouncing down the racing surface. You can’t trust Nascar as they lost their integrity a long time ago. It’s just how things are.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Passing Bubba was irrelevant. I'm -assuming- the telemetry showed he made no effort to get off the wall, or maybe that he drove to stay there.
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I watched the in car review. He purposefully overdrove that corner, he hadn't all race but did then. as soon as the car settled into the wall he gassed the sh!t out of it all the way to the line. IMHO he knew exactly what he was doing from the corner entrance to the finish line. Had I been in his situation I would have done the same, he was not in until the move, if I get called out on it I am still not in a final 4, what Have I got to loose.

If and I say if, Ross and Silver spoon blocked on purpose, I hope they kick there ass hard. I watched the reply several times and what I saw stinks to high heaven.
 
IMO, if NASCAR doesn't suspend Austin Dillon and Ross Chastain for the block party they threw for William Byron, and they don't suspend Bubba Wallace for his involvement in these shenanigans, they're inviting a ton more shenanigans at Phoenix.

Set a precedent right now: If you interfere with the outcome of the Championship Race, you will not be racing in the Daytona 500.
 
rd45usa said:
There is no way in he!! the 24 didn't know what was going on with the one and three behind them, you don't think other teams don't listen to the radio from other teams. RCR and HMS have an engine program together.
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Based on the rule it doesn't matter if the 24 knows - it only matters if the 24 "encouraged, persuaded, or induced" them to do it.
 
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