What Do you Think of the New Package?

Discussion in 'NASCAR chat' started by Speedbowl14, Feb 25, 2019.

  1. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    Have to agree with you here, and good on you for including the compound factor, which matters a lot. I have major issues with how the cars drive generally with such high downforce, but this was very good racing today. Nobody was stuck behind anyone slower and the grooves raced well.

    Those clamoring for "the old Bristol" should admit that what they want is a demo derby.
     
    Charlie Spencer and LewTheShoe like this.
  2. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    If I follow your logic fans of Daytona and Talladega should admit they like the demo derbies.
     
    Charlie Spencer likes this.
  3. LewTheShoe

    LewTheShoe Team Owner

    Ha. They'll never admit it. I love the irony of it when folks belittle NASCAR promotions for pandering to bloodthirsty newbies, and then a moment later slam Bruton Smith for ruining Bristol... bring back the beating banging and wrecking. I won't name names, however.
     
  4. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    I like current Bristol the way it is, but would probably still prefer old Bristol. A more physical race like that isn't necessarily a bad thing every once in a while and the feuds that it produced were always a good thing for the sport, something that NASCAR has been lacking for a while. Not sure I want a real demo derby but there was a real anticipation of whether or not a guy was going to give someone else the bumper or just line up the exit perfectly to get a run underneath into the next turn. A bump-n-run doesn't have to wipe someone out entirely (a la Earnhardt/Labonte). If cautions are a byproduct of tight racing, so be it, but intentionally dumping obviously isn't cool.
     
  5. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    I’m sure there are some fans that liked to see the wrecks at an older iteration of Bristol just like some fans like to see wrecks at the big tracks. I think most fans just accept wrecks as part of the landscape of racing and don’t watch to see wrecks.

    I know that I didn’t attend Bristol all those years to see wrecks and in fact sometimes the cautions would get tedious. I absolutely hate the wrecks at the big tracks.
     
  6. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    Well stated counterpoint. There are surely a few who desire physical contact racing but not pile-ups. However, it doesn't pass the smell test for me that this is the majority. The wrecks themselves were extremely popular, frankly.
     
  7. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    I know people that watch 4 races a year specifically to see wrecks. The number totals only about 6 but it is 6 more than I currently know that folllow the series.
     
  8. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    for sure, so should lovers of short tracks and road courses also be included as fans who only watch for wrecks? I don't think so. Like there is a problem with occasional contact? Most fans want to see hard racing, moving guys out of the way if they don't move, side slapping if they try to pinch them down too many times. Running side by side for laps trying to make a pass. Yeah wrecks will happen, but I saw some awesome passing at Bristol with or mostly without the bumper. That's what I thought Nascar is trying to do with the tracks they have today with the package as much as they can. I do believe in the future it is the way they are going track wise to more shorter tracks and road courses. Personally I think Watkins Glenn's reason for being so popular recently is directly the result of the racing of Keselowski, Logano, Ambrose, Kyle Busch, and Almendinger bringing home nothing but the steering wheel. Pretty darn good show this weekend.
     
  9. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    My remark was about people who trash modern Bristol while pining for the old one.

    Today's race was very good.
     
  10. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    I wasn't referring to anybody in particular, but the kind of racing I described, the wreck watcher part of the fandom would grow. Hell I don't care, but running with what got ya here is yet another direction I think Nascar is heading. I don't think they will go overboard, it's too expensive, but year after next should be interesting. The tone is set with the cut off races they selected next year IMO.
     
  11. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    Hopefully in the future there will be no such things as cut off races, chases, playoffs, stages, stage coach points and playoff points and a bunch of other crap that is unnecessary to enjoy racing.
     
  12. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    I think if they built modern Bristol in a different market, one of the many markets NASCAR has expanded to recently, it'd be considered a genius move. But it replaced a joint where you could count on a knockdown, drag-out, heavyweight fight almost every time you showed up. Quite frankly, NASCAR fans have enough places where they can see multi-groove racing. Bristol was something unique - still good, but not as distinct as it used to be. And it didn't help that for a period of time - maybe after the second time they tinkered - it just moved the single groove from the bottom to the top, which is pretty pointless. You couldn't really get past a guy unless you could diamond the turns. Since they've been working in the lower groove with PJ1/VHT over the last two or three years it's gotten better.

    This is a relevant quote from DW a few years ago, after they changed the track in 2012:

     
  13. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    I believe the initial change to progressive banking improved the track and provided superior racing. Superior entertainment for the masses, apparently not. I'm not really taken with a single groove on the bottom short track anywhere. I agree that single groove on the top isn't much better. I agree that the tinkering attempts were not useful until the traction compound, and now they have a nice balance again.

    Back when Bristol was so popular, I always preferred Richmond. Yet I don't think Richmond races as well now as it did 15 years ago.

    While it's indisputable that the move to multi-groove was initially unpopular, my hypothetical would be that I think they could rebuild the track precisely as it was in the '90s, and the hordes aren't coming back.
     
  14. Towmater

    Towmater Ratings Craterville

    The old Bristol had 150,000+ people buying a ticket. Today’s Bristol is more than likely going to have a race taken away from it and has the corner stands roped off. Yep, people wanted and expected a certain type of racing there and they no longer get it. So, they no longer go to watch the event in person. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand that the fans voted with their pocketbooks when it came to the old Bristol vs. the new Bristol.
     
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  15. Team Penske

    Team Penske Team Owner

    I think the change is counted when the cars go through a section where it is recorded. You would have that position if the yellow falls.
     
    FLRacingFan and AdoubleU24 like this.
  16. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses rule.

    Most fans that are left, at least. I suspect part of the decline from the boom years was losing those people who didn't learn to see what was happening between the cautions.
     
  17. Team Penske

    Team Penske Team Owner

    I have a question. ???????
    Does anyone think young boys with million dollar incomes are capable of giving
    their all the same way as drivers who usually started racing in their early thirties
    did who usually invested the family grocery money to get to the track?????????

    Those drivers and their fans are not a part of Nascar anymore and yet they were
    the ones Nascar was built on. The battles on the tracks were drivers battling drivers and
    today you have MAYBE 15 such drivers. The real battles are in pit stops and the engineering
    and that is why Nascar is going down the same road as IRL did.
     
    Old 97 likes this.
  18. Charlie Spencer

    Charlie Spencer Short tracks and road courses rule.

    I have an answer !!!!!!!
    Yes.
     
    Team Penske likes this.
  19. Team Penske

    Team Penske Team Owner

    One subject that does not come up very often but is complained about weekly was the schedules
    of years gone by. I am speaking about the "Chase" where JJ the combinations of his type of tracks which fit his style of driving made him a 7 time champion. I doubt he would have more than 4 racing the schedules prior to this format and the points manipulation that went with it.

    Is it possible that this had a real affect on fans leaving the sport?
     
  20. AuzGrams

    AuzGrams Team Owner

    As much as I hate demo derbies or a caution fest, I'd probably take it at Bristol if it meant a few good rivalries, maybe some after race pit road altercation/fights like there used to be.

    I never really thought Bristol was that bad of a demo derby with the old configuration. Lots of cautions, spins? Yes?
     
    FLRacingFan, LouieLouie and StandOnIt like this.
  21. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    The problem with “levigating” Bristol was it was completely unnecessary as people had liked the track the way it was for years. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it!

    While Nascar has not mortally wounded the goose that laid the golden egg it has given her regular beat downs. Nascar could revert to any place in time and give us that product today and people would not return en masse. IMO there is still substantial shrinkage to take place as fans leaving and aging out are outpacing those entering.
     
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  22. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    Yesterday's race was by far the best of the season thus far. I'll take that over reminiscing about an older version of the track that didn't always produce the barnburners that are seared into people's memories. Some good points made by @FLRacingFan and others though.
     
  23. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    [/QUOTE]
    Many are frequently wrong about the new rules package

    Kyle Busch was less than pleased with how conditions are coming together. He was the fastest Toyota driver of the session, fifth overall, but got prickly when asked how he expected Sunday’s race to go under NASCAR’s high-downforce rules package.

    “I think you’re going to run or try to run wherever you can where the guy in front of you ain’t because you certainly can’t follow,” said Busch, adding his car was “plowing tight. Aerotight at Bristol. At a short track. Fantastic. Can’t wait.”
    NASCAR raced two weeks ago at Martinsville Speedway, the shortest track on the NASCAR circuit at 0.526 mile, and a track that typically forces drivers to gouge their way through the field. But the race did not live up to expectations, and Brad Keselowski won in a runaway — he led all but 54 laps and was passed on the track only by Chase Elliott.

    Busch warned Bristol might be much of the same because of a rules package that emphasizes high downforce — one he’s been dubious about since NASCAR said last year it was making radical changes.

    “That’s exactly what we told everybody,” he said with a smirk.

    Now Logano on the other hand :cool:
    “You get a good car up front that can control the pace, especially at a place like Martinsville. … If you get lead, you get more air cooling your brakes, you can run the pace that you want to and you have everything cooler than the guy that was chasing you the whole time and you’re able to drive away,” he said.
    Logano doesn’t believe the leader at Bristol will be able to pull away the same way Keselowski did at Martinsville.

    “Here, the advantage is probably cut down some because you have traffic within the first 20 laps of a run,” Logano said. “You’re going to catch (lapped cars) pretty quick, so that clean-air advantage that you have will go away and that will keep the second, third, fifth-place cars all closer.”

    https://triblive.com/sports/short-track-at-bristol-latest-test-for-new-nascar-rules-package/
    • :cool:
     
  24. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    Many are frequently wrong about the new rules package

    Kyle Busch was less than pleased with how conditions are coming together. He was the fastest Toyota driver of the session, fifth overall, but got prickly when asked how he expected Sunday’s race to go under NASCAR’s high-downforce rules package.

    “I think you’re going to run or try to run wherever you can where the guy in front of you ain’t because you certainly can’t follow,” said Busch, adding his car was “plowing tight. Aerotight at Bristol. At a short track. Fantastic. Can’t wait.”
    NASCAR raced two weeks ago at Martinsville Speedway, the shortest track on the NASCAR circuit at 0.526 mile, and a track that typically forces drivers to gouge their way through the field. But the race did not live up to expectations, and Brad Keselowski won in a runaway — he led all but 54 laps and was passed on the track only by Chase Elliott.

    Busch warned Bristol might be much of the same because of a rules package that emphasizes high downforce — one he’s been dubious about since NASCAR said last year it was making radical changes.

    “That’s exactly what we told everybody,” he said with a smirk.

    Now Logano on the other hand :cool:
    “You get a good car up front that can control the pace, especially at a place like Martinsville. … If you get lead, you get more air cooling your brakes, you can run the pace that you want to and you have everything cooler than the guy that was chasing you the whole time and you’re able to drive away,” he said.
    Logano doesn’t believe the leader at Bristol will be able to pull away the same way Keselowski did at Martinsville.

    “Here, the advantage is probably cut down some because you have traffic within the first 20 laps of a run,” Logano said. “You’re going to catch (lapped cars) pretty quick, so that clean-air advantage that you have will go away and that will keep the second, third, fifth-place cars all closer.”

    https://triblive.com/sports/short-track-at-bristol-latest-test-for-new-nascar-rules-package/
    • :cool:
    [/QUOTE]

    Don’t forget about the passes in the pack as seen on the leaderboard as they were awesome too. It was also fun tracking when the last car on the lead lap was fixin to get passed by the leader as well.
     
  25. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    pretty interesting how similar the stats are

    [​IMG]
     
  26. ReturnTrip

    ReturnTrip Team Owner

  27. Kiante

    Kiante Team Owner

    These stats are not really telling the whole story. I'd say the racing throughout the field was good, there is no denying that with a lot of on track action. It was honestly a great race last night and it got close to a four way battle for the win. Its just the aero is playing about as big of a role as ever and passing is more difficult in the end with the massive spoiler.
     
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  28. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    more exaggerated for a car with the larger spoiler to take away the trailing car's line I thought than the Xfinity race. Leader cars in both races were able to hold off faster cars though and Richmond is known for that.. That's how it should be, the leader should have an advantage and therin lies the rub. With previous packages and maybe the Richmond race, the leader had a huge advantage. I think the tires were a factor to a certain extent also along with very little practice/ set up time because of the weather. All in all not too bad for the first time there. I enjoyed it, but I was pulling for Logano, Harvick or Boyer and disappointed nobody used the bumper.
     
  29. ReturnTrip

    ReturnTrip Team Owner

    I thought it was a pretty standard Richmond Night. The big spoiler and higher cornering speeds turned it into even more of a one-groove track than usual. As the season goes on I believe we'll see that this package favors certain tracks over others.
     
    FLRacingFan and StandOnIt like this.
  30. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    Steve-O forgot to tweet these out this week, not sure why.

    Stats don't indicate good or bad racing. Last night's race was good, but there are major issues that they've created with high downforce and dirty air.
     
    Turtle84, 2 Sweet and FLRacingFan like this.
  31. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    MoV is the flavor of the week.
     
    gnomesayin likes this.
  32. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    2019 rules no bueno.
     
  33. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    I think they are a hell of a lot more interesting than TV ratings or some of the other nonsense myself. But as usual, some instead of looking at them and comparing them objectively to the packages of other years, the usual passive aggressive negative comments abound. Bristol last week were pretty similar no matter what package they ran.When looking at the amount of cautions, and importantly when they fell for some of the other races at Richmond using pretty much the same tire they aren't that far off either. Higher lead changes for some races had lead changes that only lasted a lap or two on restarts so yeah It's easy to see that these statistics don't tell the whole story. I think the leader has a harder time of getting out front and setting sail
     
  34. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    Earlier in the thread you touted green flag changes of the lead as what the objective of the package is. You also laughed off the idea of number of cautions and length of green flag runs factoring into the statistics. Some consistency is really all that can be asked for.
     
    2 Sweet and IanMcVittie like this.
  35. IanMcVittie

    IanMcVittie Team Owner

    Your comments on this post don’t coincide with what you said earlier in this thread. Have you changed your mind?

    I agree that stats don’t tell the whole story. Stats are definitely useful tools but you never want to categorically base things like passing loop data to say a race was good or bad.
     
  36. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    what I said was that Nascar was trying to accomplish more green flag passing for the lead and closer racing. Nothing is 100%, but for the most part in this young season it's happening. Speaking of quotes, among other things I believe you have said on many occasions that this new package will make the racing easier. Surely anybody wouldn't think that. I haven't see easier racing. At any rate, wouldn't be pointing the finger. And BY the way the reason I laughed is because on long green runs almost always there will be less passing then when they have a number of short run cautions and restarts.
     
  37. FLRacingFan

    FLRacingFan Team Owner

    Yes, and I stand by my belief that the cars last year are generally harder to drive than this year's. That is not so much an issue at places like Bristol and Richmond, which remain noticeably difficult to race at. And my counter was always that long green flag runs that induce green flag pit stops inflate passing statistics by a large magnitude.
     
  38. gnomesayin

    gnomesayin Team Owner

    The debates about the 2019 rules were centered around the package for intermediates. It is a universal truth in motorsports that a vehicle with more power is more difficult to drive and control. This is why development ladders increase power at each subsequent level. It is an elementary truth that more downforce provides more aerodynamic grip, and a lack of it is more difficult to drive.

    It's quite simple and not a matter of opinion. For some reason it isn't enough for 2019 package enthusiasts to just say that they like the racing better this way, or that drivers are forced to race closer together. I no longer take the denial of basic reality and attempts to create foggy distractions around it seriously.
     
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  39. StandOnIt

    StandOnIt Farm Truck

    is there a racing law somewhere that says that about more power equates to better racing or somehow makes cars easier to drive? just asking for the chili bowl.
     
  40. Turtle84

    Turtle84 Slow is Fast

    Another feather in the cap, of exactly why these stats are more or less meaningless to the entertainment value of the race.

    However! It does speak to how difficult it was to pass last night with the amount of aero in play. I would call it "AeroStuck", as in stuck where you're at.

    Thanks for posting that though.
     

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