What Do you Think of the New Package?

gnomesayin said:
I think some have a genuine fear that any and all criticism hurts the sport and any and all praise helps. I disagree, but I think a lot of is misplaced, not necesssarily disingenuous. Oddly, many company line loyalists have no problem disparaging the product of yesterday in an attempt to prop up today's. As soon as it becomes recent history, somehow it's kosher to talk about how terrible the race was last year and how each subsequent event is the best event ever at X.

That said, these folks should drop in on an F1 discussion sometime, or several other racing series I follow. Loyal and devoted fans can be absolutely scathing, and it doesn't spell the demise of anything. Spectator events are killed by a lack of interest, not the existence of critical interest.
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:headbang:
 
Yep a person has the right to be as miserable and as dissatisfied as they want. Some as seen above jump with joy when they are. Critical interest, that's a new one on me. I wouldn't waste the effort to log on and constantly complain myself. I do what I do and they do what they do. I enjoy the hell out of the racing, some enjoy critical interest. The race at Kentucky poled out a big success by a huge majority, good to see so many enjoyed it. That's what it is all about.
 
I was quite to surprised to see 81-19 because there is a vocal group of people (I think it's the diehards more than anything) that dislike this package.
 
AuzGrams said:
I was quite to surprised to see 81-19 because there is a vocal group of people (I think it's the diehards more than anything) that dislike this package.
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Yeah and that’s the thing. Ultimately in anything casual fans greatly outnumber diehards. Go to any sporting event and the majority of people are there to drink and socialize with a solid amount actually interested in the event and how it goes.

As I said, we had a group of 8 have a great time in Kentucky, and I am probably the only diehard that went. They all thought the racing was great and the ratings on the race were high.

Regardless that was one hell of a finish
 
Interesting article from 2015 about the "new low downforce package". Quotes from Carl Edwards.

From 2015:

upload_2019-7-16_7-16-0.png


opinions will vary I bet on what happened to the racing after that point to where we are today.

http://www.racechaseronline.com/featured/schmidt-says-nascars-aero-package-massive-success/
 
Mispeedway15 said:
Yeah and that’s the thing. Ultimately in anything casual fans greatly outnumber diehards. Go to any sporting event and the majority of people are there to drink and socialize with a solid amount actually interested in the event and how it goes.

As I said, we had a group of 8 have a great time in Kentucky, and I am probably the only diehard that went. They all thought the racing was great and the ratings on the race were high.

Regardless that was one hell of a finish
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Casual fans are generally less informed and less concerned with the technicalities involved with any type of auto racing.
They’re more the, “beer and a good time” crowd.
 
I agree with Larson.

I miss the days when at a track like Kansas, they get up to 193 on the front stretch, and down to 145s in the corners. As Busch said.. you entering the corner and finessing the car with breaks to where you can roll the center. That's NASCAR racing.

This is "show" racing that happens to produce low horsepowered close racing. The product is exciting, I guess.. but it's not what I want to see. Talent hardly matters now. You catch a guy..you get a run, and pass him.



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Mispeedway15 said:
Actually was interested to see how the Kyle Busch/Joey Logano battle was going to finish as Joey’s lead was narrowing.

As I said while I hope they remove some downforce, the lower HP makes a difference. The package we had the last few years was badass, but made passing almost impossible on 1.5’s bc the engineering has just became too good. These guys were regularly hitting 200 and passing was so so tough. At least now you can run down the guy with clean air
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That was a farce by the announcers. Fake drama. Logano's lead was growing the entire time. When they were saying that leganes lead was shrinking, it went from 1.80 down to 1.65. then, back up to 1.70. then 1.80 again, and then the yellow. It was over, Logano was just managing traffic and driving off.

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jaqua19 said:
I agree with Larson.

I miss the days when at a track like Kansas, they get up to 193 on the front stretch, and down to 145s in the corners. As Busch said.. you entering the corner and finessing the car with breaks to where you can roll the center. That's NASCAR racing.

This is "show" racing that happens to produce low horsepowered close racing. The product is exciting, I guess.. but it's not what I want to see. Talent hardly matters now. You catch a guy..you get a run, and pass him.



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yeah they had that, for a brief instant with the low downforce package back in 15 until the teams figured out how to get the downforce back. It was more like a day though. The first race with the new package this year had similar statistics and was a great race. Will the next race there be as good?
 
jaqua19 said:
That was a farce by the announcers. Fake drama. Logano's lead was growing the entire time. When they were saying that leganes lead was shrinking, it went from 1.80 down to 1.65. then, back up to 1.70. then 1.80 again, and then the yellow. It was over, Logano was just managing traffic and driving off.

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Yeah he had it for sure.. I'm happy just knowing he had the best car again.. and one of the only cars (maybe the only car) that could catch a car and make the pass within a lap or two.. that's big.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Yeah he had it for sure.. I'm happy just knowing he had the best car again.. and one of the only cars (maybe the only car) that could catch a car and make the pass within a lap or two.. that's big.
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You don't think it's an issue that he was one of the only cars that could catch and pass? That's a huge issue no matter who you're a fan of. And he was the best car, so he should have had some sort of advantage on the last restart. But thanks to this package, he did not. As a fan, I'd be furious. If that happens at Homestead your tune will change.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Yeah he had it for sure.. I'm happy just knowing he had the best car again.. and one of the only cars (maybe the only car) that could catch a car and make the pass within a lap or two.. that's big.
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Blaney's fault, pure and simple. Kyle B had Erik, Kurt B had Larson -- but Blaney got there late, so Logano was screwed.
 
Revman said:
In a relative sense, who the hell cares if it is throttle down momentum racing?
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:waver:
When it is just throttle down momentum racing, basically everyone can drive a Cup car.
Cup cars should be 1,000 hp monsters that are terrible to handle and scare the **** out of their driver. It should take a lot of talent to wheel those things.

NC HillBilly said:
If NASCAR mandated spec car based on the early-mid 90s cars (Gen 4 as they call it now) with better driver safety and only a nose to differentiate the various makes how would you guys feel about it? It would come along with several rule changes to put adjustments back into each teams hands to let them set them up like they wanted too. One of those would be a minimum ride height to prevent them running right on the ground. I know they can't unlearn aero but maybe if something closer to an old brick was mandated it could be counter acted somewhat. It'd also get rid of fuel injection.

The goal would be to replicate the racing from that era and the cars themselves wouldn't look anything like a modern sedan. They'd just have Chevy/Ford/Yota on them. I know most aren't big fans of the CoT/spec car here but I wanted to see what kind of response this would get since it's my favorite era (well late 80s was good too..it's close).

I feel like if Dale hadn't died we probably would have ended up with a car like that in the mid-2000s. He was pushing for safer cars and NASCAR always listened to his input. Well knowing how Dale felt about the Gen 4 cars maybe he would have pushed them to develop something based off Gen 3 (80s/very early 90s). Perhaps a combination of what made Gen 3 and 4 good. I think that's where NASCAR should look for inspiration if they want to bring back the "good old days" and with modern inspection standards it would probably avoid the problems they were having with teams building the twisted sisters.

I just think it's unrealistic to expect a return to the Win on Sunday sell on Monday days. I also think most modern American and Toyota sedans don't look very good either. I don't know what this fascination is with having the huge grill on everything these days.
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Agreed. I'd also suggest a budget cap for engine development if that's possible.

But I'd say today's sedans look miles better than those of the 90's.

BobbyFord said:
Casual fans are generally less informed and less concerned with the technicalities involved with any type of auto racing.
They’re more the, “beer and a good time” crowd.
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I bet most of the "casual fans" don't even know that there are different engine manufacturers.​
 
Thank you all for going to town on "the package", it gets mighty draining on the energy levels rehashing these same things.
 
donthaveanickname said:
When it is just throttle down momentum racing, basically everyone can drive a Cup car.
Cup cars should be 1,000 hp monsters that are terrible to handle and scare the sh!t out of their driver. It should take a lot of talent to wheel those things.
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Is there something in the points standings that shocks you? Proves that the mid range guys are actually competing on equal footing as the big players? I am not seeing it. So, in theory we should see Stenhouse winning races for example. He is better, but he isn't that. The drivers don't like it. Okay, I get it, but they would like serving Slurpees less.
 
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SlicedBread22 said:
STOP WHINING PEOPLE!!

NASCAR OWES US NOTHING!!

Its entertainment.. and it's been entertaining.

You're diluted sense of what it SHOULD be is an example of entitlement at it's best. Stop having this dream of what we should see every week and enjoy the fact that we get anything at all before the fans kill the sport we all love.

Mini rant over lol
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They only let me like this once. An injustice. Thank you.
 
BobbyFord said:
Eating crappy food when there’s nothing else to eat doesn’t make it anymore palatable.
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The same guys are winning. What is different besides drivers complaining? If it is so easy, Stenhouse should be in the points lead.
 
BobbyFord said:
The on track product sucks compared to last year. Unless you’re just in it for the wadded up restarts.
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I hear what you are saying, but in what way? Same guys winning essentially. Leaders are not getting away they way they once did. Just not sure I understand what it is that you (and others) are looking for.
 
Revman said:
I hear what you are saying, but in what way? Same guys winning essentially. Leaders are not getting away they way they once did. Just not sure I understand what it is that you (and others) are looking for.
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Less aero. More HP.
More throttle response. Slower middle of the corner speeds so that drivers actually have to lift. Decreased “wake” when behind another car. A package that rewards driver ability rather than hitting the perfect “trimmed out” set up.
Sure, it’s always going to be the teams that have the most resources up front, I’d just like to see this crap package in the trash can where it belongs and a return of the 2018 set up.
 
BobbyFord said:
Less aero. More HP.
More throttle response. Slower middle of the corner speeds so that drivers actually have to lift. Decreased “wake” when behind another car. A package that rewards driver ability rather than hitting the perfect “trimmed out” set up.
Sure, it’s always going to be the teams that have the most resources up front, I’d just like to see this crap package in the trash can where it belongs and a return of the 2018 set up.
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Frankly none of that is going to happen soon. Some of us who have been around for awhile know that Nascar will continue to change things, so maybe in the future your wish list will be filled. Doesn't look good in the near future.
 
BobbyFord said:
Less aero. More HP.
More throttle response. Slower middle of the corner speeds so that drivers actually have to lift. Decreased “wake” when behind another car. A package that rewards driver ability rather than hitting the perfect “trimmed out” set up.
Sure, it’s always going to be the teams that have the most resources up front, I’d just like to see this crap package in the trash can where it belongs and a return of the 2018 set up.
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Okay, so I want to be clear that I am not being disrespectful, but tell me what you see that you don't like. Can you see throttle response, corner speed, and wake? Driver abilities rewarded? 2018 was criticized for being too engineer driver and car dependent as well....
 
Revman said:
Okay, so I want to be clear that I am not being disrespectful, but tell me what you see that you don't like. Can you see throttle response, corner speed, and wake? Driver abilities rewarded? 2018 was criticized for being too engineer driver and car dependent as well....
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The cars appear slower overall. The cars push up the track and drop 15 spots when they come up behind another car through the corner. They wad up like crazy on a restart because nobody is going anywhere. They are flat-footed at almost every 1.5er. Flat-footed = zero throttle response.
 
BobbyFord said:
The cars appear slower overall. The cars push up the track and drop 15 spots when they come up behind another car through the corner. They wad up like crazy on a restart because nobody is going anywhere. They are flat-footed at almost every 1.5er. Flat-footed = zero throttle response.
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Okay, I hear you. That makes sense. Thanks.
 
BobbyFord said:
The cars appear slower overall. The cars push up the track and drop 15 spots when they come up behind another car through the corner. They wad up like crazy on a restart because nobody is going anywhere. They are flat-footed at almost every 1.5er. Flat-footed = zero throttle response.
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If they are flat footed? how come they can pass at all. As it is with last years package the passing was less with all of the horsepower and throttle response they all had? I would guess you don't like to see passing and lead changes. Makes sense.
 
StandOnIt said:
If they are flat footed? how come they can pass at all. As it is with last years package the passing was less with all of the horsepower and throttle response they all had? I would guess you don't like to see passing and lead changes. Makes sense.
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For the record, I like last year, and I like this year. I have always considered myself ignorant in regard to what great racing is/was, but maybe I just like racing in whatever form it takes?
 
Revman said:
For the record, I like last year, and I like this year. I have always considered myself ignorant in regard to what great racing is/was, but maybe I just like racing in whatever form it takes?
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I have been told I am a hater of last years package. I pointed out that at the first part of last year the lack of passing was setting a record. I guess I should have called them apologists or something. The season did get better last year. Reporting what Nascar set out to do this year, their goals they stated, closer racing and the ability of a training car to be able to pass by LESSENING the aero advantage makes me an apologist, so be it. Myself, I think they made big strides at the 1.5's their bread n butter tracks. Bristol was really good, but so far the high horsepower tracks haven't been much different and some have been worse, but hard to judge with only one race to go by.
 
StandOnIt said:
I have been told I am a hater of last years package. I pointed out that at the first part of last year the lack of passing was setting a record. I guess I should have called them apologists or something. The season did get better last year. Reporting what Nascar set out to do this year, their goals they stated, closer racing and the ability of a training car to be able to pass by LESSENING the aero advantage makes me an apologist, so be it. Myself, I think they made big strides at the 1.5's their bread n butter tracks. Bristol was really good, but so far the high horsepower tracks haven't been much different and some have been worse, but hard to judge with only one race to go by.
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Overall, I feel like more people are happy, and given that I will always be happy (I guess I am an apologist as well), that makes me happy. This is a great sport. Ridiculously awesome.
 
Revman said:
Overall, I feel like more people are happy, and given that I will always be happy (I guess I am an apologist as well), that makes me happy. This is a great sport. Ridiculously awesome.
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Yeah I think the majority of fans are also. Satisfied fans don't say much is what Jr said and I agree. The last stage at Kentucky and the way it panned out with Logano looking like he was a sure winner as he hunted down and passed the 18 and then the second chance the 18 had on the restart and the side by side multi lap duel that the Busch brothers had for the win. If a person didn't like that, I don't know what to tell them, check out curling or something. :p
 
StandOnIt said:
Yeah I think the majority of fans are also. Satisfied fans don't say much is what Jr said and I agree. The last stage at Kentucky and the way it panned out with Logano looking like he was a sure winner as he hunted down and passed the 18 and then the second chance the 18 had on the restart and the side by side multi lap duel that the Busch brothers had for the win. If a person didn't like that, I don't know what to tell them, check out curling or something. :p
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I for one could have done without that last part :D
 
StandOnIt said:
It's a rare day when Logano gets mugged on a restart. I know I was surprised when I saw it. Larson was a key player in getting Kurt pushed out there.
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True.. I still thought he had it until he didn't .. I take comfort in knowing he had the best car though.. on to the next one
 
With this package, it's tough for most fans to tell the good handling cars from the average. That aero "wiggle" is present almost all of the time and doesn't mean the car isn't handling good. Then there's the traction compound and less horsepower putting a premium on momentum driving. Be interesting to see how Dale Sr. would have done in these cars (especially since he could "see" the air!) (⊙_⊙;)
 
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