What Do you Think of the New Package?

gnomesayin said:
The debates about the 2019 rules were centered around the package for intermediates. It is a universal truth in motorsports that a vehicle with more power is more difficult to drive and control. This is why development ladders increase power at each subsequent level. It is an elementary truth that more downforce provides more aerodynamic grip, and a lack of it is more difficult to drive.

It's quite simple and not a matter of opinion. For some reason it isn't enough for 2019 package enthusiasts to just say that they like the racing better this way, or that drivers are forced to race closer together. I no longer take the denial of basic reality and attempts to create foggy distractions around it seriously.
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Extremely well said. The only problem with elementary truths is that they are not elementary for some to grasp.

I have always liked the DH rule in the AL. I have been taken to task by purists and others over this flawed thinking. I don’t care as watching a pitcher try and hit is not exciting to me.

In the same way if you like the 2019 rules that is fine. Enjoy them but don’t try and justify them by taking matters out of context and incorrectly rattling off meaningless stats. I like the 2018 rules better than the 2019 period.
 
StandOnIt said:
is there a racing law somewhere that says that about more power equates to better racing or somehow makes cars easier to drive? just asking for the chili bowl.
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Is there any data that shows that quality passes in the pack make for better racing?
 
StandOnIt said:
is there a racing law somewhere that says that about more power equates to better racing or somehow makes cars easier to drive? just asking for the chili bowl.
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How do you misinterpret these statements again and again? "Better" is a matter of opinion, and you are more than free to yours. Whether it is more difficult to drive a car with more relative power or less power is not.

If they restricted the power of the midgets at the Chili Bowl by 25%, they'd be easier to drive. Period. Midgets also have a tiny amount of downforce relative to this discussion, so not a useful comparison.
 
what is hard for most to grasp is that down force rates double in comparison to speed increases(this is a physical law). Your guess and constant dismissal of anything that doesn't agree with you misses out on many variables, too many to mention. More d/f in clean air or following safely behind the car in front amounts to a single file parade for the most part with side by side racing occurring mostly on restarts. Nascar's attempt to remedy that is what is happening. you have a problem with that and you do have your opinion, and in your case going slower speeds and alluding only to that makes sense to you. But Nascar is trying to create more passing and closer overall racing That isn't 100% on every track, but my opinion is that according to the overall stats so far this year, it has improved. I'm sure there will be aha moments for those that don't like the racing this year.
 
I remember one Richmond race, I wanna say it was spring of '95, where Rusty and Dale ran side by side for a dozen laps. Door to door through the turns, through the straights, lap after lap after lap. I don't remember the last time I've seen cars capable of running side by side continuously for more than a moment at a time, but I bet it was a few (car) generations ago, likely pre-COT.

There's no statistic for that. O'Donnell's notebook about "quality passes" or whatever means nothing to me. The cars can either run together closely, or they can't.
 
Back to a minor point: the reason raw green flag passing stats are inflated by a lack of cautions and long green runs is due to green flag pit cycles. Stop and think about 30+ cars pitting under green on different laps and how many times each one is getting 'passed' and then re-'passing' each other.
 
2 Sweet said:
I remember one Richmond race, I wanna say it was spring of '95, where Rusty and Dale ran side by side for a dozen laps. Door to door through the turns, through the straights, lap after lap after lap. I don't remember the last time I've seen cars capable of running side by side continuously for more than a moment at a time, but I bet it was a few (car) generations ago, likely pre-COT.

There's no statistic for that. O'Donnell's notebook about "quality passes" or whatever means nothing to me. The cars can either run together closely, or they can't.
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Well said and the stats Nascar uses and parroted by others to indicate if a race was good or not are ludicrous. When was the last time someone watched a race or game and said “after watching it I thought it really sucked but after reviewing the stats it was really good.”
 
gnomesayin said:
Back to a minor point: the reason raw green flag passing stats are inflated by a lack of cautions and long green runs is due to green flag pit cycles. Stop and think about 30+ cars pitting under green on different laps and how many times each one is getting 'passed' and then re-'passing' each other.
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Doh!
 
gnomesayin said:
Back to a minor point: the reason raw green flag passing stats are inflated by a lack of cautions and long green runs is due to green flag pit cycles. Stop and think about 30+ cars pitting under green on different laps and how many times each one is getting 'passed' and then re-'passing' each other.
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not necessarily. the third stage is mostly the only one that requires a pit, and often there is a caution because a backmarker blows a tire or just spins out. It isn't that reliable. A higher number of cautions in a race is as accurate or more so depending on how many and when they fall..In other words neither ways aren't something to argue over.
 
StandOnIt said:
not necessarily. the third stage is mostly the only one that requires a pit, and often there is a caution because a backmarker blows a tire or just spins out. It isn't that reliable. A higher number of cautions in a race is as accurate or more so depending on how many and when they fall..In other words neither ways aren't something to argue over.
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IMO your counterpoint defines grasping at straws. You like the 2019 rules and that is fine with me. No justification needed.
 
StandOnIt said:
what is hard for most to grasp is that down force rates double in comparison to speed increases(this is a physical law). Your guess and constant dismissal of anything that doesn't agree with you misses out on many variables, too many to mention. More d/f in clean air or following safely behind the car in front amounts to a single file parade for the most part with side by side racing occurring mostly on restarts. Nascar's attempt to remedy that is what is happening. you have a problem with that and you do have your opinion, and in your case going slower speeds and alluding only to that makes sense to you. But Nascar is trying to create more passing and closer overall racing That isn't 100% on every track, but my opinion is that according to the overall stats so far this year, it has improved. I'm sure there will be aha moments for those that don't like the racing this year.
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I am curious about the bolded. Are you saying 2018 was a single file parade that NASCAR needed to remedy? Or are you saying the current package is a single file parade that NASCAR is working on a remedy? Or something else in general?

I am also fine with you or anyone else liking the 2019 package, perfectly acceptable. Not my preference, but I'm not running the show.
 
FLRacingFan said:
Yes, and I stand by my belief that the cars last year are generally harder to drive than this year's. That is not so much an issue at places like Bristol and Richmond, which remain noticeably difficult to race at. And my counter was always that long green flag runs that induce green flag pit stops inflate passing statistics by a large magnitude.
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Odd, I had the impression these cars are easier to drive. Cautions seem to be down, at least.
 
Tail extension panel. Wha?

Everybody thinks the cars are going to drive a lot better, but I think the new tail extension panel is going to take downforce away and make the cars drive quite a bit different. I’m very interested to see how it plays out but we’ll see when we get there. The good thing is Hendrick Motorsports has very strong superspeedway cars

https://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/the-other-side-of-alex-bowman-part-4/4371659/
 
StandOnIt said:
Tail extension panel. Wha?

Everybody thinks the cars are going to drive a lot better, but I think the new tail extension panel is going to take downforce away and make the cars drive quite a bit different. I’m very interested to see how it plays out but we’ll see when we get there. The good thing is Hendrick Motorsports has very strong superspeedway cars

https://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/the-other-side-of-alex-bowman-part-4/4371659/
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Interesting. Wonder when we will hear about this? Will it be used at Talladega or do we have to wait til Dover? I can only imagine what this is going to look like too, with a name like "tail extension panel". Is this a piece of lexan hanging off the back of the car or are we extending the length of the bodies somehow, or just making adjustments to the spoiler.

Also, let it be known, NASCAR is now making adjustments to the aero package before the all star race! (I think someone made this a bold prediction.)
 
He's talking the Dega race, and I believe it is for that race only if I am guessing right. That's the first race of the all new super speedway package, but that is the first I heard of a tail extension panel? I thought it was just getting rid of the restrictor plate, and then after they tested they had to slow them down a bit. I found more of the Bowman interview

WHAT CAN WE EXPECT AT TALLADEGA? “I’m pretty curious. They put the tail extension panel on which made my car get really loose there during the test there. Even by myself I was a little bit out of control . They also are going to raise the ride-heights a bit so that will put more downforce in the car and we a little different. We were really fast in the test Daytona. Curious to see where the speeds are and how the cars race. It is so hard to say from a test with only three cars what’s going to happen. I don’t think we have a good idea about how it is going to race until we get there.”
http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/story-325935.html
 
These young drivers learning Cup Cars in an ever changing rules package --

while learning how to be successful in Cup organizations and dealing with the world of sponsors and NASCAR Corporate culture...
 
From my "sources in Charlotte," I have obtained further info about the tail extension and how it worked in a recent test session. It does slow the cars a bit, but they get somewhat loose in the back end...

 
Raising the ride heights? So they have a minimum ride height once again? I'm pretty sure I was told NASCAR wouldn't ever raise the cars again because they would lift off and fly into the moon. The cars at these plate tracks have been embarrassing for a few years now with the ass dragging and crab walking. Not a coincidence that the plate races have suffered in quality, imo.
 
Motorsport.com is not the best source for Nascar journalism or opinion, but many would say Steve O'Donnell isn't either. Anyway, their report card is less glowing...

NASCAR Roundtable: Grading
the new aero package​

How would you grade the new aero package in Cup and why?

Jim Utter: Probably a B- but it's hard for me to give an accurate grade when I think the circumstances of some of the races affected the outcomes more than the aero package. In particular, we've had several races already this season with very few cautions and extended green-flag runs. Long green-flag runs on bigger tracks that include green-flag pit stops are going to string out the field regardless of what aero package is being used. It even happens at Daytona and Talladega (especially when a lot of cars don't pit at the same time). I've seen promise though and think it will continue to get better. One caveat: I'm not certain why aspects of the package were adapted for short tracks. In my opinion, they should have just left those tracks' rules as they were.

Nick DeGroot: C ... The hype hurt the perception of it, really. It's not the massive change everyone expected and it seems to have only helped marginally in some areas while hurting others. Yes, restarts are more exciting and some finishes have been closer, but at what cost? It's so difficult to pass, the cars are planted and we don't see anyone losing control anymore. Although the Richmond finish was solid, it pales in comparison to the one a few years back when they were racing three-wide for the win at the end. It hasn't really produced the increased level of entertainment that was expected/promised. So far, I believe that the cons have outweighed the pros.

Tim Southers: With Talladega coming up in a couple of weeks I think that will be a big test with NASCAR deciding to run the tapered spacer I think a complete report card might be a little too soon. I think the grade now would be a B or maybe a C+. I think there have been more green flag passes for the lead and closer finishes, but I also think there are more opportunities to see the package in action. Then I think we can give a total grade on the new package.

https://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/news/roundtable-package-surprises-2019-season/4372488/
 
Honestly I kinda liked Vegas & Texas with the new package. Atlanta, Phoenix, Martinsville, Bristol, Richmond were about the same. Fontana was downright terrible. I'd give this a C+ or B- so far.

I have no clue why some of this package is being used at the non intermediate tracks.
 
D+

The only bright spots have been Bristol and Martinsville, which averaged a 4.5/10 rating from me this year (usually those are around 9/10 ratings). I absolutely loathe the lack of horsepower and the increased aero grip as it limits the driver skill. However, I am very optimistic about how this package will race at Dega next weekend.
 
Dega and Daytona are not real racing. They get better attendance which tells me people rather watch a crash derby than a race.
 
Team Penske said:
Dega and Daytona are not real racing. They get better attendance which tells me people rather watch a crash derby than a race.
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Racing is a subjective term. Objectively speaking, a race is comprised of at least 2 participants with the end goal being to finish with a quicker time than the other participants.
 
RacerrecaR said:
Racing is a subjective term. Objectively speaking, a race is comprised of at least 2 participants with the end goal being to finish with a quicker time than the other participants.
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and yet at those two tracks the ultimate is to survive to the end.
 
Team Penske said:
and yet at those two tracks the ultimate is to survive to the end.
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That is the case with every track; see: attrition.

I agree that attrition plays a bigger role at the once-deemed "plate" tracks, but every track and every race is unpredictable. I've seen 15+ car pileups at every track type in NASCAR with the exception of road courses. I've also seen caution-free races at plate tracks.

The point is every race is unique and it isn't healthy to have a preconceived notion about a race because anything is possible.
 
RacerrecaR said:
I've seen 15+ car pileups at every track type in NASCAR with the exception of road courses.
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I dunno about 15 but we've seen 8 and 10 cars smooshed together at Watkins Glen, both at the top of the esses and the between the boot entrance and exit.

But at most tracks, those are rarities. At Daytona and Talladega they seem to be routine, even noteworthy when they don't happen. I'm in the camp that feels most of those in attendance are there more for the wrecks than for what happens before or after.
 
100 more HP this package has over the plate package and a one inch taller spoiler on the back and nobody knows what is going to happen.

D47cO4yWkAA9GUQ.jpg:large
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I dunno about 15 but we've seen 8 and 10 cars smooshed together at Watkins Glen, both at the top of the esses and the between the boot entrance and exit.

But at most tracks, those are rarities. At Daytona and Talladega they seem to be routine, even noteworthy when they don't happen. I'm in the camp that feels most of those in attendance are there more for the wrecks than for what happens before or after.
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Ive watched the crowd stand lap after lap and cheer the passing, no wrecks involved. To say "most are there for the wrecks" is painting with a broad brush.
 
They have raised the ride height an inch and I believe the extension to make them tail draggers has been reduced. Going to be interesting, the cars are going to blow a big hole in the air with that spoiler. Nascar is running barefoot with this one. They only had three cars when they tested and they were too fast so they went with the 1" higher spoiler. The Xfinities are running the plate still.
 
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