What do you think of the NextGen Car?

After multiple races, have come to the conclusion that it has generated a different type of racing. Which, from my perspective the jury is still out on.

Positives:
  • The smaller teams appear to be more competitive
  • The body appears to take more abuse
  • The vehicles do not seem to have as many brake issues
Negatives:
  • Not backyard/bull ring relateable
  • Hate the wheel combo, to eurocentric, loose wrist, aristocratic international sporty type BS
  • Aero interferes with what used to be a rough and tumble racing venue, get rid of the "diffuser/Belly pan"
  • Exhaust reminds me of IMSA.
  • Suspension seems more fragile.
That is my two cents.
 
Kiante said:
Exhaust reminds me of IMSA?

I'm not plucking hairs, but is the exhaust really a con? I think the cars sound pretty good for how restricted they are now.
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His three 'Pros' are objective for the most part. Three of his five 'Cons', including exhausts, are subjective matters of opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but they mostly don't affect the racing.
 
What do I think of the Next Gen car?

At this point, not much. I will keep trying to figure out why they did not R&D the single lug wheel set up better than they did.

Did they try and reinvent the lug and wheel set up exclusive to Nastycar or did they adapt from proven market available set ups?

Also, the have a flat tire can not move crap is total
Bull ****.gif
 
StandOnIt said:
I seriously doubt that, they will be on all of the rub blocks then.
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So your saying that the current car with 4 flats and is stopped can just hit the gas and start going? That isn't what I have seen this year.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Keselowski drove halfway around Darlington with four flats two weeks ago. Ah dun seens it wit' mah own eyeballs!
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StandOnIt said:
I think he may have been talking about the 4 wheel drive aspect that was left out of the car design when Elliott was stuck in the mud at Kansas.
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What races are you watching? I have seen numerous cars in the grass with 2 flats and cannot move, never said anything about mud. I have seen them on the pavement with 2 flat tires and can not move, BTW, I never said anything about mud.

To be clear:

To have a couple of flat tires in the grass or on pavement and can not move (excluding being stuck in the mud) is total
Bull ****.gif
:nyanya:
 
sdj said:
What races are you watching? I have seen numerous cars in the grass with 2 flats and cannot move, never said anything about mud. I have seen them on the pavement with 2 flat tires and can not move, BTW, I never said anything about mud.

To be clear:

To have a couple of flat tires in the grass or on pavement and can not move (excluding being stuck in the mud) is total View attachment 63282 :nyanya:
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I've seen numerous cars drive thru the grass at a high rate of speed and they don't blow the front end off of them AND continue to race. . I know Change is a stressor for some, and it is easier to find something negative to whine about, in your case crap over, so keep your cow ready. BTW how many cars after having a flat in the All Star race had to be towed to the pits?
 
StandOnIt said:
BTW how many cars after having a flat in the All Star race had to be towed to the pits?
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I'm glad you mentioned this. It was a huge problem early in the season, but they seem to have fixed it. What exactly did they change, and when did the change occur? Perhaps it was already discussed on here and I already forgot. It's Monday and my brain is fried lol
 
StandOnIt said:
I've seen numerous cars drive thru the grass at a high rate of speed and they don't blow the front end off of them AND continue to race. . I know Change is a stressor for some, and it is easier to find something negative to whine about, in your case crap over, so keep your cow ready. BTW how many cars after having a flat in the All Star race had to be towed to the pits?
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I just think it is bull**** on a stick that these cars can have two flat tires from a spin and get stopped then have to have a wrecker come get them, so instead of going maybe one lap down now they are multiple laps down. and that is
Bull ****.gif
, @StandOnIt , why are you so worried about how I feel about this? Pretty weird I think.
 
sdj said:
I just think it is bull**** on a stick that these cars can have two flat tires from a spin and get stopped then have to have a wrecker come get them, so instead of going maybe one lap down now they are multiple laps down. and that is View attachment 63285, @StandOnIt , why are you so worried about how I feel about this? Pretty weird I think.
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You didn't answer my simple question. How many cars after having a flat in the All Star race had to be towed to the pits? That's the first clue.
 
StandOnIt said:
You didn't answer my simple question. How many cars after having a flat in the All Star race had to be towed to the pits? That's the first clue.
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Well all it is they figured out they can't stop when involved an an incident. I guess the argument can be made its not as safe as locking it down, bringing it to a stop, assessing the condition and continuing on.

Now as soon as something happens the first thought is "I need to keep moving". Personally I think that's the wrong approach, but that's just my opinion

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
wi_racefan said:
Well all it is they figured out they can't stop when involved an an incident. I guess the argument can be made its not as safe as locking it down, bringing it to a stop, assessing the condition and continuing on.

Now as soon as something happens the first thought is "I need to keep moving". Personally I think that's the wrong approach, but that's just my opinion

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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I was talking about having a flat tire, not an accident. The car does many time sustain less damage and can make it to the pits instead of the old car that needed to be towed. I don't know who has been asleep for half the season that doesn't know the new car is more durable than the old car by far.
 
What do you think of the Next Gen pizza? It seems like a simple question, but it's actually quite complex because we have new crust, new sauce, and new condiments all at the same time.

My favorite recipe of recent decades was the 2017-18 recipe... Gen 6 chassis and body, 750 horsepower, low downforce and low drag. Awesome skill-intensive racing, and 750 HP raced about like the prior 850 HP because the drag was a lot lower than before. This recipe had just one flaw... excessive side force that boosted cornering speeds in clean air and made side-by-side encounters dodgy. The side force could have been easily fixed... the designs were already drawn.

Brian France and Marcus Smith didn't give this great recipe enough time because they were hellbent on producing WFO pack racing on the 1.5ers... The Big One every week! This begat the NA18D package with 550 HP and high downforce / high drag. I hated this from its introduction at the 2018 All Star race, but many liked the illusion of close racing that was artificially created by penalizing the leader aerodynamically. See ratings thread.

The Next Gen car was intended to maintain this NA18D style of racing with sharply lower costs and several modern attributes the sponsors coveted... independent rear suspension, lower-profile tires with 18" wheels, rack & pinion steering, symmetrical composite bodies, etc. Horsepower would remain at 550 (670 for shorties and roadies), and high downforce with huge spoilers would also remain.

The Charlotte test last fall revealed several huge problems, and time was short to get them fixed. Mainly, the car was dog slow due to having a tremendous amount of inherent aerodynamic drag; interior temperatures were dangerously high; and venting the interior heat just added to the drag problem. I recall feeling astonishment that Nascar got this far without realizing what a pickle they were in. They have wind tunnels. They have CFD algorithms. Are they really this inept?

It was too late to change the crust. So Nascar changed the sauce and changed the condiments and hoped for the best. More sauce: up from 550 to 670 HP. More condiments: smaller spoilers to shed some drag. It was a last-minute Hail Mary that got us where we are now.

*********​
We are half-a-year in, and here's what I think...

First, the Next Gen looks sharp and the composite bodies are tougher. So far, so good.

Second, the racing is definitely better than the NA18D on fast intermediates, the 1.5ers and 2.0ers. This is mainly due to the lower downforce that was adopted at the 11th hour, plus the loss of side force that was designed in from the start. These downforce/side force reductions create the off-throttle time and the difficult-to-drive character we all see. We got here largely by accident... the Hail Mary after the Charlotte test... and I'm really glad we did.

Third, the current 670 HP with this car's high drag is roughly in line with 550 HP in a Gen 6 car, so momentum racing is what we still have. We need less drag (i.e. a re-design of the car) or yet more horsepower to replicate the great racing we had in 2017-18. I'd like to see 750 HP immediately, and move up from there to mitigate the "momentum racing" that I don't relish.

Fourth, on short tracks and roadies, I hear most everyone saying we need 750 HP minimum and maybe less drag from the underbodies... and I agree. There is nothing about the Next Gen car that makes it need less horsepower than last year. With the high built-in drag, we need more power, not less.
 
LewTheShoe said:
What do you think of the Next Gen pizza? It seems like a simple question, but it's actually quite complex because we have new crust, new sauce, and new condiments all at the same time.

My favorite recipe of recent decades was the 2017-18 recipe... Gen 6 chassis and body, 750 horsepower, low downforce and low drag. Awesome skill-intensive racing, and 750 HP raced about like the prior 850 HP because the drag was a lot lower than before. This recipe had just one flaw... excessive side force that boosted cornering speeds in clean air and made side-by-side encounters dodgy. The side force could have been easily fixed... the designs were already drawn.

Brian France and Marcus Smith didn't give this great recipe enough time because they were hellbent on producing WFO pack racing on the 1.5ers... The Big One every week! This begat the NA18D package with 550 HP and high downforce / high drag. I hated this from its introduction at the 2018 All Star race, but many liked the illusion of close racing that was artificially created by penalizing the leader aerodynamically. See ratings thread.

The Next Gen car was intended to maintain this NA18D style of racing with sharply lower costs and several modern attributes the sponsors coveted... independent rear suspension, lower-profile tires with 18" wheels, rack & pinion steering, symmetrical composite bodies, etc. Horsepower would remain at 550 (670 for shorties and roadies), and high downforce with huge spoilers would also remain.

The Charlotte test last fall revealed several huge problems, and time was short to get them fixed. Mainly, the car was dog slow due to having a tremendous amount of inherent aerodynamic drag; interior temperatures were dangerously high; and venting the interior heat just added to the drag problem. I recall feeling astonishment that Nascar got this far without realizing what a pickle they were in. They have wind tunnels. They have CFD algorithms. Are they really this inept?

It was too late to change the crust. So Nascar changed the sauce and changed the condiments and hoped for the best. More sauce: up from 550 to 670 HP. More condiments: smaller spoilers to shed some drag. It was a last-minute Hail Mary that got us where we are now.

*********​
We are half-a-year in, and here's what I think...

First, the Next Gen looks sharp and the composite bodies are tougher. So far, so good.

Second, the racing is definitely better than the NA18D on fast intermediates, the 1.5ers and 2.0ers. This is mainly due to the lower downforce that was adopted at the 11th hour, plus the loss of side force that was designed in from the start. These downforce/side force reductions create the off-throttle time and the difficult-to-drive character we all see. We got here largely by accident... the Hail Mary after the Charlotte test... and I'm really glad we did.

Third, the current 670 HP with this car's high drag is roughly in line with 550 HP in a Gen 6 car, so momentum racing is what we still have. We need less drag (i.e. a re-design of the car) or yet more horsepower to replicate the great racing we had in 2017-18. I'd like to see 750 HP immediately, and move up from there to mitigate the "momentum racing" that I don't relish.

Fourth, on short tracks and roadies, I hear most everyone saying we need 750 HP minimum and maybe less drag from the underbodies... and I agree. There is nothing about the Next Gen car that makes it need less horsepower than last year. With the high built-in drag, we need more power, not less.
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Really great post but I disagree with you on upping the horsepower. We’ve seen amazing racing this year on the larger tracks, but also quite a few cautions due to just how hard a symmetrical car is to drive with a lack of sideforce to lean on like a sail. Any more and we may see caution fests on a weekly basis.

I think NASCAR adopting multiple tire compounds is the best solution. With larger tires/brakes running what is essentially a Hard compound tire you’re going to see minimal wear and allow defending a position to be significantly easier than a pass
 
eh, horsepower is B.S. these days, they have wrung about all they can out of a 355 V8 without spending stupid money like they were doing. They can play with the aero (which they have) to get the results they want. They use half of the engines a season and run them twice as long than they used to and the racing is better.
 
Seems like most of the driver/team complaints are centered around the underbody. The drivers think it's what's causing a lot of the aero issues and the owners hate how expensive it is. Not sure you can get rid of it entirely though because then teams will get back to tinkering with every part and piece underneath the car.
 
LewTheShoe said:
What do you think of the Next Gen pizza? It seems like a simple question, but it's actually quite complex because we have new crust, new sauce, and new condiments all at the same time.

My favorite recipe of recent decades was the 2017-18 recipe... Gen 6 chassis and body, 750 horsepower, low downforce and low drag. Awesome skill-intensive racing, and 750 HP raced about like the prior 850 HP because the drag was a lot lower than before. This recipe had just one flaw... excessive side force that boosted cornering speeds in clean air and made side-by-side encounters dodgy. The side force could have been easily fixed... the designs were already drawn.

Brian France and Marcus Smith didn't give this great recipe enough time because they were hellbent on producing WFO pack racing on the 1.5ers... The Big One every week! This begat the NA18D package with 550 HP and high downforce / high drag. I hated this from its introduction at the 2018 All Star race, but many liked the illusion of close racing that was artificially created by penalizing the leader aerodynamically. See ratings thread.

The Next Gen car was intended to maintain this NA18D style of racing with sharply lower costs and several modern attributes the sponsors coveted... independent rear suspension, lower-profile tires with 18" wheels, rack & pinion steering, symmetrical composite bodies, etc. Horsepower would remain at 550 (670 for shorties and roadies), and high downforce with huge spoilers would also remain.

The Charlotte test last fall revealed several huge problems, and time was short to get them fixed. Mainly, the car was dog slow due to having a tremendous amount of inherent aerodynamic drag; interior temperatures were dangerously high; and venting the interior heat just added to the drag problem. I recall feeling astonishment that Nascar got this far without realizing what a pickle they were in. They have wind tunnels. They have CFD algorithms. Are they really this inept?

It was too late to change the crust. So Nascar changed the sauce and changed the condiments and hoped for the best. More sauce: up from 550 to 670 HP. More condiments: smaller spoilers to shed some drag. It was a last-minute Hail Mary that got us where we are now.

*********​
We are half-a-year in, and here's what I think...

First, the Next Gen looks sharp and the composite bodies are tougher. So far, so good.

Second, the racing is definitely better than the NA18D on fast intermediates, the 1.5ers and 2.0ers. This is mainly due to the lower downforce that was adopted at the 11th hour, plus the loss of side force that was designed in from the start. These downforce/side force reductions create the off-throttle time and the difficult-to-drive character we all see. We got here largely by accident... the Hail Mary after the Charlotte test... and I'm really glad we did.

Third, the current 670 HP with this car's high drag is roughly in line with 550 HP in a Gen 6 car, so momentum racing is what we still have. We need less drag (i.e. a re-design of the car) or yet more horsepower to replicate the great racing we had in 2017-18. I'd like to see 750 HP immediately, and move up from there to mitigate the "momentum racing" that I don't relish.

Fourth, on short tracks and roadies, I hear most everyone saying we need 750 HP minimum and maybe less drag from the underbodies... and I agree. There is nothing about the Next Gen car that makes it need less horsepower than last year. With the high built-in drag, we need more power, not less.
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I like this comment a lot. Although I'm stuffed right now after a big dinner, it's satisfying.

I don't quite follow the technical stuff, but I'll tell you what my eyes see, and any insight you can attach to that would be appreciated.

Every now and then I'll jump into a time capsule and watch older races. Yesterday's event?

2004 Chicagoland won by Tony Stewart. The first thing I noticed compared to the intermediate racing today is the speed. Going down into turn 3, I found myself giggling with excitement because I do not recall cup cars LOOKING that fast on intermediates. It was almost like watching Indycars Texas race this year after the cup race. The horsepower discrepancy from the gen 4 package compared to the 550 of yesterday, and the 670 of today is still massive.

Another thing I noticed: On fresh tires you may see two fast cars, one car is handling slightly better...the driver gets a run out of 4, pulls into turn 1 with that run, and is able to complete the pass on the bottom without a "sliiiiide jaaawbb!!!!". Compared to today, these sort of passes are very rare. I don't consider cars being "stuck" side by side due to aero dependency and lack of power to be good racing just because the "passing stats" show loads of passes, or we are getting tight action on track. To me, that's a broken product, conning a sometimes not so thoughtful fanbase.

Good racing is fast cars being able to complete passes. Side by side racing and difficulty passing should be a product of cars that are powerfully difficult to drive... because tires are wearing out. Because the car is a handful, because a driver is defending really well, because the car has a totally different balance... Not because the lack of power or aero dependence is making it impossible for the driver on the bottom to throttle up.

Looking back on it, I've thought that difficulty a faster car may have completing a pass after running a guy down is correctable by increasing HP. But it SOUNDS like you are saying this is moreso an aero issue thing?

My question for you Lew, since you know this stuff is this: Look at the 04 race with the gen 4 car I just described. Tony Stewart has a run going into turn 1, dives to the bottom, and is able to complete the pass exiting turn 2. Johnson has a run off of 2, but Stewart maintained and then drove off, completed the pass in one end of the race track. Compared to what we have today at the 1.5ers with the 670, what is it that allowed for passes like that to be made based on what looks like handling? Is it a more powerful engine? Or was it less dependence on aero?

I thought the main difference here is the horsepower. But based on what you're talking about, I'm guessing that even if they did bump these cars up to 850+ HP again, we'd still see some aerodependent side by side racing compared to what we saw back then?

Thanks.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 
jaqua19 said:
Looking back on it, I've thought that difficulty a faster car may have completing a pass after running a guy down is correctable by increasing HP. But it SOUNDS like you are saying this is moreso an aero issue thing?
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What I'm saying is that HP and aero effects are interrelated. Gen 4 cars had a lot of horsepower, twisted sister bodies intended to produce a lot of downforce and side force with low drag, and operated in an era of emerging aerodynamics expertise in Nascar. That last point about aero sophistication is gone forever and can never happen again, although one can attempt to retrieve sorta kinda similar effects by mandating spec bodies and other components that cannot be altered.

Good skill-based racing requires substantial changes in speed that the driver must manage... braking into corners... searching for the razor's edge to maximize mid-corner speed... accelerating off the corner fighting for grip to get the throttle open a fraction earlier than the other guy. The way to achieve this is plenty of power for robust acceleration, and a scarcity of cornering capability due to aero downforce and side force. That's just my opinion, but it's not a completely uneducated opinion.

The fallacy of the NA18D philosophy is that it takes all that away, and offers a leader with a drag penalty pursued by others who can stay close (no drag penalty on them) but they can't pass because they suffer a downforce penalty from dirty air. Everyone's droning around WFO (or very close to it). Straightaway speeds are low because low HP and high drag. But cornering speeds are high because of the high downforce... there is little to no need to lift. The illusion of close racing.

As @aunty dive often says, aero effects have always existed and always will, at least until we are racing on Mars. He's right, of course. But I believe aero effects can be mitigated to avoid creating an overwhelming advantage for either the leading car or the pursuing car. If total aerodynamic downforce is low, then the penalty of losing 15% of it due to dirty air will also be a low penalty. Also, if aero drag is low, the drag penalty of being the leader will be lower than if drag is high (and I believe the Next Gen car is very high drag).

I postulate that Next Gen is high drag by observing that fall 2021 test at Charlotte. With the familiar 550 HP, the new car circulated at or close to WFO and was way slower than the year before with the same power... something like 3 seconds slower IIRC. What could cause that, other than high drag? In desperation, Nascar had some teams test radically smaller spoilers for less drag, while other teams tested 670 HP to power through the drag. Finally, Nascar adopted both... smaller spoilers and more horsepower... and still were slower than he year before but by a lesser amount. I don't know why Next Gen was designed with so much more drag. Nascar has never addressed the topic.

So is a very drag-y Next Gen car with 670 HP really a more potent piece than last year's Gen 6 at 550 HP? No, I don't think it is. There is more off-throttle time, and this is absolutely crucial to the improved quality of racing. I think that comes from the lower downforce due to smaller spoiler, rather than from the extra ponies. I'd definitely like to see more power to get away from the momentum racing. More power. Or less drag. Or both.
 
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