When will we have another multitime champion? Hampered legacies of Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick

Mopardh9 said:
Not at the local level, that's a National series.
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I don't know or care if any local level series races ARCA or K&N cars. What I do know is that the youngsters in both the K&N and ARCA series are going to have a ten race playoff race for those that qualify for it. ;)
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't know or care if any local level series races ARCA or K&N cars. What I do know is that the youngsters in both the K&N and ARCA series are going to have a ten race playoff race for those that qualify for it. ;)
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Goid for them, it will ruin those series too.
 
I think we have to deal with it until a new contract(s) are signed. Some of Brian's legacy and the networks sucked it up.
 
Snappy D said:
I just saw this....I’m not much older than you. I’m 33 so I remember the late 80’s somewhat but remember the 90’s and early 00’s real well. To say most of us won’t remember the old point system, not sure if I buy it if there’s more out there my age who wish we had a full season championship. I’m also not sure changing it back to a full season championship can’t not help, maybe it won’t in the long run. But NASCAR was humming along fine until all this postseason Chase stuff happened. It’s a shame we have to gear things toward people’s short attention span now, god forbid they have to take their eyes off their mobile device for more than 5 minutes.
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This is my point though. Obviously I remember about 1999 onward, my post was exaggeratory to make a point. But to fans who started watching in 2005, or fans who wont remember before the chase (there will be some), they arent going to care about the old system.

My point is that eventually, most fans arent going to remember, or know any other system than the chase, and playoffs. The people who cant let go of the old system, or accept that today's champions are not lesser champions than those of old will continue to be the minority. But again, this thread was more so about the legacy of all time drivers who have missed out on seperating themselves from the pack of active champions

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SlicedBread22 said:
Well if we're gonna see mini Dega races every week.. compare their stats at plate tracks for a glimpse ;)
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Haha...

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Although, my curiosity is piqued at one thing. Martin was a boss at plate tracks in the Xfinity Series. Why hasn't that success translated to the Cup series? Is it just a matter of time? There's that and the glaring 0 wins on short tracks that many people are keen to point out. I can't help but think the man is going to change those stats. I won't at all be surprised if he wins several short track races next season.

But nah, I think both drivers have had similar Cup careers. Both were seen as promising drivers, who were eventually starting to get written off as middling journeymen drivers before they joined the teams that finally rewarded them with the equipment, cooperation, atmosphere, and respect that they needed to step up to the next level.
 
Revman said:
Fair. I would love to see a debate on this topic between you and @Truex_rox. Not a stupid argument, but a true debate. I think this comparison is an interesting one. I am not sure that I don't disagree with you, but both drivers have really come from a couple of different angles to get where they are. Good stuff.
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I would like to see what would happen if Truex were to get a little more bold behind the wheel. He's a friendly guy and a friendly driver, and that has its merits. As I have observed this season, though, sometimes he is too friendly behind the wheel. If the way the championship race played out doesn't convince him to get up on the wheel and fight a little more, I don't know what will.
 
jaqua19 said:
This is my point though. Obviously I remember about 1999 onward, my post was exaggeratory to make a point. But to fans who started watching in 2005, or fans who wont remember before the chase (there will be some), they arent going to care about the old system.

My point is that eventually, most fans arent going to remember, or know any other system than the chase, and playoffs. The people who cant let go of the old system, or accept that today's champions are not lesser champions than those of old will continue to be the minority. But again, this thread was more so about the legacy of all time drivers who have missed out on seperating themselves from the pack of active champions


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I am considered an old fan of the late 80's I have watched all the racing since then and IMO the worse racing was the latter years of JG. Those drivers were on cruise control, not what I wanted to see.
Since stage racing started the racing has gotten much better. The first year only the #78 team realized early the advantage and others stayed on cruise. Once all the teams understood what he was doing they decided to change. Today we get racing all season at least 3 times in every race compared to last 50 laps as it was prior. For this reason I think the current format is just great. Two things that I would change now to make it better would be:
1. No pitting under green.
2. No win and your in.
The caution at the end of each stage was meant to be commercial times ( it is needed)
and so we have to accept it however limit what the cars can do. For example no tire changes or no gas.
Also get rid of the final race for champion and use the final 4 races points total to crown the champion.
 
Team Penske said:
I am considered an old fan of the late 80's I have watched all the racing since then and IMO the worse racing was the latter years of JG. Those drivers were on cruise control, not what I wanted to see.
Since stage racing started the racing has gotten much better. The first year only the #78 team realized early the advantage and others stayed on cruise. Once all the teams understood what he was doing they decided to change. Today we get racing all season at least 3 times in every race compared to last 50 laps as it was prior. For this reason I think the current format is just great. Two things that I would change now to make it better would be:
1. No pitting under green.
2. No win and your in.
The caution at the end of each stage was meant to be commercial times ( it is needed)
and so we have to accept it however limit what the cars can do. For example no tire changes or no gas.
Also get rid of the final race for champion and use the final 4 races points total to crown the champion.
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I’d meet you half way....keep the stages, get rid of the Miami Bowl and get rid of the win/in the playoffs. Id settle for the 10 race Chase, only top 10 drivers in. Whoever scores the most points out of those 10 drivers in those last 10 races is the champion, we’d still have stage points and playoff points that’d go towards that tally like they do now. I’d keep pitting under green though, I always felt that added a strategy component. However we’d have to find a way to rotate the last 10 tracks each year. Maybe.....the last 5 if 10 is not doable.
 
Team Penske said:
I am considered an old fan of the late 80's I have watched all the racing since then and IMO the worse racing was the latter years of JG. Those drivers were on cruise control, not what I wanted to see.
Since stage racing started the racing has gotten much better. The first year only the #78 team realized early the advantage and others stayed on cruise. Once all the teams understood what he was doing they decided to change. Today we get racing all season at least 3 times in every race compared to last 50 laps as it was prior. For this reason I think the current format is just great. Two things that I would change now to make it better would be:
1. No pitting under green.
2. No win and your in.
The caution at the end of each stage was meant to be commercial times ( it is needed)
and so we have to accept it however limit what the cars can do. For example no tire changes or no gas.
Also get rid of the final race for champion and use the final 4 races points total to crown the champion.
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I agree, the twisted sisters cars appeared to be the most aero dependent cars out of all of them. I don't mind a playoff situation, the 10-12 car playoff system they had before this last version was a better more fair way of crowing a champion and easier to follow I think. Like they do today Nascar could move some dates around to have the drivers race on short, medium, large and a road course for variety. Keep it simple.
 
Truex_rox said:
Haha...

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Although, my curiosity is piqued at one thing. Martin was a boss at plate tracks in the Xfinity Series. Why hasn't that success translated to the Cup series? Is it just a matter of time? There's that and the glaring 0 wins on short tracks that many people are keen to point out. I can't help but think the man is going to change those stats. I won't at all be surprised if he wins several short track races next season.

But nah, I think both drivers have had similar Cup careers. Both were seen as promising drivers, who were eventually starting to get written off as middling journeymen drivers before they joined the teams that finally rewarded them with the equipment, cooperation, atmosphere, and respect that they needed to step up to the next level.
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I agree with most of that.

I really do think it's just a matter of time until Truex gets wins at short track and plate wins.. he's run too well on those tracks not to. Logano does have those short track and plate wins but then again Truex has been very dominant on the speedways.

While I do think Logano has the edge, and would pick him 9/10 times head to head. Their stats don't differ that much. Joey has the advantage in wins, top 5s, top 10s and average finish but nit by a huge margin and Truex has proved he can get it done any week. Although Joey does have a decade more than Truex to improve on those numbers.
 
Truex was a field filler until he connected with Pern. Just shows what the right combination can do for a driver. Harvick was a winning driver but until he got this CC he was no champion.

Personally I think 5yrs with any CC is enough, after that they get stale. Has Kyle ever had a CC for more than 5 years?
 
Team Penske said:
Truex was a field filler until he connected with Pern. Just shows what the right combination can do for a driver. Harvick was a winning driver but until he got this CC he was no champion.

Personally I think 5yrs with any CC is enough, after that they get stale. Has Kyle ever had a CC for more than 5 years?
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Eh, Chad and Jimmie..Tony and Zippy?

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jaqua19 said:
Eh, Chad and Jimmie..Tony and Zippy?

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Chad/JJ is one in a thousand combos and right now Jr/Pearn are the only ones being this consistant. Kyle has changed CC's quite often and yet he has been consistently winning.
Kyle knows what he wants and as soon as a CC tries to insert himself they are gone. I will go out on a limb and say Kyle is his own CC. ( reminds me a lot of Dale Senior and how he did things)
Tony/Zippy won 2 championships but raced like dogs during the hot summer months. I don't give Zippy credit for Tony getting it done and Zippy sure did not help Joey in any way.
Homestead this year could spell the end for Adam and Kyle. Adam sure failed to give Kyle a chance at the title.
 
Team Penske said:
Chad/JJ is one in a thousand combos and right now Jr/Pearn are the only ones being this consistant. Kyle has changed CC's quite often and yet he has been consistently winning.
Kyle knows what he wants and as soon as a CC tries to insert himself they are gone. I will go out on a limb and say Kyle is his own CC. ( reminds me a lot of Dale Senior and how he did things)
Tony/Zippy won 2 championships but raced like dogs during the hot summer months. I don't give Zippy credit for Tony getting it done and Zippy sure did not help Joey in any way.
Homestead this year could spell the end for Adam and Kyle. Adam sure failed to give Kyle a chance at the title.
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Wolfe and Keselowski are a killer combo as well that have lasted a long time, I think they are now the longest tenured with Chad and JJ splitting up.
 
Snappy D said:
Wolfe and Keselowski are a killer combo as well that have lasted a long time, I think they are now the longest tenured with Chad and JJ splitting up.
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I didn't mention them because they really are not consistent. :p
 
Team Penske said:
I didn't mention them because they really are not consistent. :p
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Consistency is over-rated as an objective in today's Cup racing. Consistency remains crucial during the post-season, but during the 26-race regular season, the key is winning races and winning stages. The 2 team is more likely than any other to employ a strategy that turns a car with 5th place speed into potentially a winner if it works out, or potentially a 12th place finish if it doesn't.

For many decades, NASCAR's points scale and championship format over-emphasized consistency, and under-rewarded winners and other front runners. That has changed to some degree. I for one don't miss the points racing.
 
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