Nascar Cup at the Indy Oval Pre-Race Thread

Revman said:
Sure didn't. As always....the championship goes through Larson. Three spots left in the Final Four. I want two of them,
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Not sure about this. Maybe if the Indy win gives him some momentum but the 5 team had been falling off some since the win at Sonoma. He also gets too aggressive at times and ends up wrecking when it could have been avoided which will cost him if he can't pull it back some. I'd still call the 11 the favorite and give the 20 a good shot too - especially with Phoenix being the title race which may have been Larson's worst performance of the year so far and Chevy just sucks there. Starting to feel like the championship 4 will be Hamlin, Bell and Larson with the 4th still a "?." Could be Reddick, Byron, Blaney or Elliott but Elliott will need a win in the round of 8 because he is lacking so many playoff points. I just think it's hard in this format to say the championship goes through anyone really. Everyone would have taken Harvick ove the field in 2020 and we all saw how that worked out.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Race moved to USA due to breaking political events.
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This is another problem I forgot to mention for those of us who choose to DVR the race and watch later at night so we can enjoy the weather it's a nightmare to get the whole race recorded because of all the overtimes and unpredictable switching of networks. Another problem with NASCAR that needs to change or fans will keep walking.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Not sure about this. Maybe if the Indy win gives him some momentum but the 5 team had been falling off some since the win at Sonoma. He also gets too aggressive at times and ends up wrecking when it could have been avoided which will cost him if he can't pull it back some. I'd still call the 11 the favorite and give the 20 a good shot too - especially with Phoenix being the title race which may have been Larson's worst performance of the year so far and Chevy just sucks there. Starting to feel like the championship 4 will be Hamlin, Bell and Larson with the 4th still a "?." Could be Reddick, Byron, Blaney or Elliott but Elliott will need a win in the round of 8 because he is lacking so many playoff points. I just think it's hard in this format to say the championship goes through anyone really. Everyone would have taken Harvick ove the field in 2020 and we all saw how that worked out.
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Yeah, but I think Larson will win the regular season Championship, and that will all but lock him into the final 4. He won't suck as bad as MTJ did last year. One race for all of the marbles? Larson IMO. I like the 11 and the 20 there as well. Would love to see the 45, but I am thinking that Chase's consistency will get him there....or perhaps Blaney again. 5, 11, 20, and 9.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, but I think Larson will win the regular season Championship, and that will all but lock him into the final 4. He won't suck as bad as MTJ did last year. One race for all of the marbles? Larson IMO. I like the 11 and the 20 there as well. Would love to see the 45, but I am thinking that Chase's consistency will get him there....or perhaps Blaney again. 5, 11, 20, and 9.
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I think Larson already has like 28 playoff points at this point. Elliott 10 points back, B+ is 15 back. They only have 6 and 8 playoff points scored for Elliott and Reddick.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, but I think Larson will win the regular season Championship, and that will all but lock him into the final 4. He won't suck as bad as MTJ did last year. One race for all of the marbles? Larson IMO. I like the 11 and the 20 there as well. Would love to see the 45, but I am thinking that Chase's consistency will get him there....or perhaps Blaney again. 5, 11, 20, and 9.
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I agree with you that Larson will be in the final 4 but then again no one ca say for sure. Harvick seemed to be a lock in 2020 and than everything went wrong in a hurry. Larson should have been a lock for the round of 8 in 22 but we saw what happened there. Even if Larson gets into the final 4 though I'd take Bell, Hamlin or Blaney over him at Phoenix. Larson is pretty much a lock for the regular season title at this point though unless he DNF's early in a race and others like Elliott do not. All I am saying overall is that this format almost eliminates Championship "favorites." If a driver gets hot in the round of 8 Like Chase did in 2020 it can change everything.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I agree with you that Larson will be in the final 4 but then again no one ca say for sure. Harvick seemed to be a lock in 2020 and than everything went wrong in a hurry. Larson should have been a lock for the round of 8 in 22 but we saw what happened there. Even if Larson gets into the final 4 though I'd take Bell, Hamlin or Blaney over him at Phoenix. Larson is pretty much a lock for the regular season title at this point though unless he DNF's early in a race and others like Elliott do not. All I am saying overall is that this format almost eliminates Championship "favorites." If a driver gets hot in the round of 8 Like Chase did in 2020 it can change everything.
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That is what NBC and the gerbils are hoping for. Really hard to stomach if a driver like Larson who is dominating the season has one bad race and loses the championship. Blaney won last year, he is popular, but really? Nascar has pretty much scrambled their history, usurped drivers greatness with this latest playoff scheme. We buy it because we have to.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is what NBC and the gerbils are hoping for. Really hard to stomach if a driver like Larson who is dominating the season has one bad race and loses the championship. Blaney won last year, he is popular, but really? Nascar has pretty much scrambled their history, usurped drivers greatness with this latest playoff scheme. We buy it because we have to.
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Well I just don't agree that Larson is "dominating" Is he the best so far this year? Yes, but he has 4 wins and others have 3 so not that far ahead really and until this Indy win (where he was not the fastest car) the 5 team seemed to be trending in the wrong direction some and having some sloppy execution. It works both ways though. Chase dominated the regular season in 2022 and ran and hid with the regular season title but their performance fell off (or others just got better and adapted from what Chase has said) and even though Chase made the final 4 he was really no factor at Phoenix and I think rightly so - the way they ran the back half of the year they really had no business winning. I'm pretty sure in the classic format though right now Chase is leading the points but have not seen an update of late. I am a fan of consistency and think no matter the format, the championship winner should show it the majority of the year and this format lends itself too much to drivers who get hot early and rack up playoff points and then almost make the championship round by default. Also not good to have fluke wins like Suarez and Cindric and Logano in the playoffs. Just my opinion.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I agree with you that Larson will be in the final 4 but then again no one ca say for sure. Harvick seemed to be a lock in 2020 and than everything went wrong in a hurry. Larson should have been a lock for the round of 8 in 22 but we saw what happened there. Even if Larson gets into the final 4 though I'd take Bell, Hamlin or Blaney over him at Phoenix. Larson is pretty much a lock for the regular season title at this point though unless he DNF's early in a race and others like Elliott do not. All I am saying overall is that this format almost eliminates Championship "favorites." If a driver gets hot in the round of 8 Like Chase did in 2020 it can change everything.
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Larson has a 10 point lead over Elliot and 15 over Reddick. How does that make him a lock for the regular season title??
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Well I just don't agree that Larson is "dominating" Is he the best so far this year? Yes, but he has 4 wins and others have 3 so not that far ahead really and until this Indy win (where he was not the fastest car) the 5 team seemed to be trending in the wrong direction some and having some sloppy execution. It works both ways though. Chase dominated the regular season in 2022 and ran and hid with the regular season title but their performance fell off (or others just got better and adapted from what Chase has said) and even though Chase made the final 4 he was really no factor at Phoenix and I think rightly so - the way they ran the back half of the year they really had no business winning. I'm pretty sure in the classic format though right now Chase is leading the points but have not seen an update of late. I am a fan of consistency and think no matter the format, the championship winner should show it the majority of the year and this format lends itself too much to drivers who get hot early and rack up playoff points and then almost make the championship round by default. Also not good to have fluke wins like Suarez and Cindric and Logano in the playoffs. Just my opinion.
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It's not that close. Maybe if you learned how to use Racing Reference you wouldn't make these nonsensical outlandish claims.
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Daytripper said:
I agree Larson probably wins it, but in no way does he have it locked down.
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Nope he doesn't but Nascar has the competition design aspect down. There are around 5 teams that are in the running and any one of them could get hot. On the low bottom end, it is win one race and then get hot in the playoffs. Totally screws teams that have been consistent all season and has a bad race or two.
 
StandOnIt said:
It's not that close. Maybe if you learned how to use Racing Reference you wouldn't make these nonsensical outlandish claims.
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But this does not show points for the old season long classic format which is what I was talking about. Chase's average finish is 2.5 spots better - that's a pretty wide margin really. Yes Larson would close some of that gap for bonus points for laps led but Chase has some of those too so....Here is the update now that you wanted me to do some research that I had admittedly not done before and it does back up what I am saying

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As you can see - Larson would be very far behind. Even giving him a solid finish at the race he missed he would be behind. Even giving him MAX points for that Chase would still have about 50 points on him. Chase would have lost the lead now to Reddick but it would be a close and compelling championship battle. It seems like you do not like the current format because you feel like the best car does not always win which is true but even in the old format, Larson is not dominating. If this was the classic format and Larson had run the 600 (which I am sure he would have under the old format) we would have one hell of a three-way battle for the title going.
 
All you have to do is look at wins, top 5's and 10's on my graphic. It tells the tale. It's not that close even with Larson missing a race.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
But this does not show points for the old season long classic format which is what I was talking about. Chase's average finish is 2.5 spots better - that's a pretty wide margin really. Yes Larson would close some of that gap for bonus points for laps led but Chase has some of those too so....Here is the update now that you wanted me to do some research that I had admittedly not done before and it does back up what I am saying

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As you can see - Larson would be very far behind. Even giving him a solid finish at the race he missed he would be behind. Even giving him MAX points for that Chase would still have about 50 points on him. Chase would have lost the lead now to Reddick but it would be a close and compelling championship battle. It seems like you do not like the current format because you feel like the best car does not always win which is true but even in the old format, Larson is not dominating. If this was the classic format and Larson had run the 600 (which I am sure he would have under the old format) we would have one hell of a three-way battle for the title going.
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Who cares?

That system hasn’t been used for 20 years. I wonder if Chase Elliott would be the points leader as a 9 year old boy in 2004?
 
StandOnIt said:
That is what NBC and the gerbils are hoping for. Really hard to stomach if a driver like Larson who is dominating the season has one bad race and loses the championship. Blaney won last year, he is popular, but really? Nascar has pretty much scrambled their history, usurped drivers greatness with this latest playoff scheme. We buy it because we have to.
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BS. Ask the Patriots. Have you ever been to a Championship Weekend? I have twice, and it is an incredible event....and event that NASCAR deserves. I am so over the criticism of how we crown a champion....everybody gets the game. No question the championship runs through Larson, but he has not been so dominant that it would be an injustice if a Hamlin, Bell, or even Reddick were to win it. I buy because I choose to, and I will keep buying....can't wait to get to Phoenix in November.
 
aunty dive said:
Who cares?

That system hasn’t been used for 20 years. I wonder if Chase Elliott would be the points leader as a 9 year old boy in 2004?
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I care because the topic was how bad this system sucks and how much better the old system was. One of NASCAR's biggest problems is that it has constantly changed formats to try to attract new fans who are not ever going to be fans and continues to alienate the fans that are trying to stay loyal and interested. The old system was far from perfect and had its share of stinkers for sure....I remember years where all the championship leader had to do was start the final race and the title was set. That said, I don't think anyone has given real thought to how much better the old system would be in this age of parity and where the cars are so much more dependable. Bill Elliott (who was known for taking care of equipment) lost 2 titles (85 and 92) in large part because of constant mechanical failures.

I was also making a point because someone was trying to suggest Larson had been "dominant" this year but this playoff format sets up underserving champions or at least that's the way I read it. Seems to me though that Larson is benefiting from this format now since it's better for aggressive drivers like him that will risk crashing to try to win a race. Either way though, I would not categorize Larson as "dominant" since he just took the lead in wins for the season and he only has one more win than a few other drivers. I was also not bringing it up just on Chase's behalf as your response seems to suggest since you single him out. As always, I care more about the sport than my driver and I am more realistic about my drivers' strengths and weaknesses. So many want to keep calling Larson the "best" which he may be but I like to delve deeper than simple crap like that. If we are talking "best" let's define parameters or measurables. If we are talking most wins this season then yes - case closed. If we are talking about overall consistency - no case closed as that seems to be Chase/Reddick. If we are talking overall raw speed, that's a far more complicated debate as I think the 11 has been there with him, the 20 has shown it also and Chase seems to be catching up now but who knowns what the next race will bring.
 
StandOnIt said:
All you have to do is look at wins, top 5's and 10's on my graphic. It tells the tale. It's not that close even with Larson missing a race.
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LOL. Dude, Larson is doing really well and having a fine season but he's just not "dominant." You want to see "dominant?" Check out Jeff Gordon's 1997 or Kevin Harvick's 2020. It seems like you are just setting up excuses for if Larson loses already saying the format is garbage and produces undeserving champions but as Revman said - that's just BS. Everyone knows the rules and what it takes to win. I then show you that even in the old format Larson is not dominating and you just laugh it off. I can honestly tell you that DO think Larsson has been the best overall car this year if not the most consistent but I still doubt he wins it all unless the Chevys figure out Phoenix. Maybe you should suggest a new championship format that favors laps led, wins and top 5's but then disregard crashes, DNFS and missed races because that seems to be what you are suggesting. LMAO. You are only looking at the stats you want to. It's called bias for your driver.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
But this does not show points for the old season long classic format which is what I was talking about. Chase's average finish is 2.5 spots better - that's a pretty wide margin really. Yes Larson would close some of that gap for bonus points for laps led but Chase has some of those too so....Here is the update now that you wanted me to do some research that I had admittedly not done before and it does back up what I am saying

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As you can see - Larson would be very far behind. Even giving him a solid finish at the race he missed he would be behind. Even giving him MAX points for that Chase would still have about 50 points on him. Chase would have lost the lead now to Reddick but it would be a close and compelling championship battle. It seems like you do not like the current format because you feel like the best car does not always win which is true but even in the old format, Larson is not dominating. If this was the classic format and Larson had run the 600 (which I am sure he would have under the old format) we would have one hell of a three-way battle for the title going.
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To be honest, thank God we scrapped that points system. No way could you make the argument that Chase is having a better season
 
Mispeedway15 said:
To be honest, thank God we scrapped that points system. No way could you make the argument that Chase is having a better season
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I am not trying to make that argument and even said Larson is having the best season - just not dominant. It's funny - what year was it that Jeff Gordon set the world on fire and won 10 races but lost to Texas Terry Labonte for the title? 96? Who had the "better" year that year? In 85 Awesome Bill won 11 races but lost the title to DW who won only 3 races and only had 2 more top 5's than Bill and 3 more top 10's. Many people give mad respect to Texas Terry and DW for those titles for their remarkable consistency and rightly so IMO. Either way it all comes down to opinion and I think the old format would be great now. Much better than this win and you're in stage racing BS that crows a champion who gets hot for a few races like Chase did in 2020 and lets guys into the "playoffs" for catching rain at the right time or other fluky BS. It's drama manufactured for fans that won't watch anyway because they have zero attention span. I think winning is important should be rewarded but this system just puts too much emphasis on it. I have and always will have more respect for long-term consistency over the long haul and I saying that as a fan of a driver who won 11 races and lost to guy who won 3 and a fan of a driver who has a title for getting hot at the right time.
 
aunty dive said:
Who cares?

That system hasn’t been used for 20 years.
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Chase Fan 79 said:
I care because the topic was how bad this system sucks and how much better the old system was.
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This off-topic “topic” was started by YOU informing us (at some length) how much the current system sucks, how much better the old system was, how it somehow explains the dominance of one driver over all others and on and on and on, ad infinitum.

Expressing your opinions in the form of declarative statements does not transform them into facts. The only facts that matter in this discussion are the most recently available performance statistics.

The only 2024 Cup Series dominance in evidence as of this date accrues to the 4 car Hendrick Motorsports team … winners of 9 of the 22 races run so far. The other 32 chartered cars have collectively accumulated a total of 13 race wins.

2003 called and took full responsibility for the apathy they created, causing the sanctioning body to implement a Championship Series playoff system, the most recent version of which remains in play some 20-odd years later. It’ll still be in play 20 years from now.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
LOL. Dude, Larson is doing really well and having a fine season but he's just not "dominant." You want to see "dominant?" Check out Jeff Gordon's 1997 or Kevin Harvick's 2020. It seems like you are just setting up excuses for if Larson loses already saying the format is garbage and produces undeserving champions but as Revman said - that's just BS. Everyone knows the rules and what it takes to win. I then show you that even in the old format Larson is not dominating and you just laugh it off. I can honestly tell you that DO think Larsson has been the best overall car this year if not the most consistent but I still doubt he wins it all unless the Chevys figure out Phoenix. Maybe you should suggest a new championship format that favors laps led, wins and top 5's but then disregard crashes, DNFS and missed races because that seems to be what you are suggesting. LMAO. You are only looking at the stats you want to. It's called bias for your driver.
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Let's be clear here....Toyota sucked at Phoenix....until this year....but Chevy is going to Chevy......
 
Whiskyb said:
or three!!
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...but we have the Olympics! I ****** hate the Olympics. Loved it when it was amateur, but it is anything but now.....However, NBC will force the illusion of sacrifice and that kind of bull**** when we all know that these athletes are getting very rich....at least in the major sports. I want my NASCAR.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I am not trying to make that argument and even said Larson is having the best season - just not dominant. It's funny - what year was it that Jeff Gordon set the world on fire and won 10 races but lost to Texas Terry Labonte for the title? 96? Who had the "better" year that year? In 85 Awesome Bill won 11 races but lost the title to DW who won only 3 races and only had 2 more top 5's than Bill and 3 more top 10's. Many people give mad respect to Texas Terry and DW for those titles for their remarkable consistency and rightly so IMO. Either way it all comes down to opinion and I think the old format would be great now. Much better than this win and you're in stage racing BS that crows a champion who gets hot for a few races like Chase did in 2020 and lets guys into the "playoffs" for catching rain at the right time or other fluky BS. It's drama manufactured for fans that won't watch anyway because they have zero attention span. I think winning is important should be rewarded but this system just puts too much emphasis on it. I have and always will have more respect for long-term consistency over the long haul and I saying that as a fan of a driver who won 11 races and lost to guy who won 3 and a fan of a driver who has a title for getting hot at the right time.
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1996 was almost 30 years ago. So so long ago.
 
aunty dive said:
This off-topic “topic” was started by YOU informing us (at some length) how much the current system sucks, how much better the old system was, how it somehow explains the dominance of one driver over all others and on and on and on, ad infinitum.

Expressing your opinions in the form of declarative statements does not transform them into facts. The only facts that matter in this discussion are the most recently available performance statistics.

The only 2024 Cup Series dominance in evidence as of this date accrues to the 4 car Hendrick Motorsports team … winners of 9 of the 22 races run so far. The other 32 chartered cars have collectively accumulated a total of 13 race wins.

2003 called and took full responsibility for the apathy they created, causing the sanctioning body to implement a Championship Series playoff system, the most recent version of which remains in play some 20-odd years later. It’ll still be in play 20 years from now.
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Actually it was not me who started complaining about the current format - read back bro. Despite how I feel about it, this format is what we've got and whichever champion comes out of it is the champ and that's that. That's really the only FACT anyone can throw out there. I have also not stated anything else as such - again read bro. Just some opinions about the old vs the new that's all. R-E-L-A-X.
 
Revman said:
Let's be clear here....Toyota sucked at Phoenix....until this year....but Chevy is going to Chevy......
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Very true as in 2020 Chase killed it there and Larson in 2021. Since then though it seems like Ford and Toyota have focused more on it understanding that if you don't ren well there you are most likely not winning a title. Very smart really. I hope Chevy gets their collective heads out of their asses soon but I really get the sense that overall Chevy is losing interest in NASCAR.

***********DISCLAIMER******* The information stated above is not intended to be presented as fact but rather my opinion based on years of watching NASCAR and supporting the sport. if my opinion in anyway offended anyone or left them feeling butt-hurt please know this was not my intention as I operate on the assumption of common sense. :)
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
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I’m more nostalgic for those NBC/TNT graphics than anything else.

Larson being where he is on here exemplifies that the Latford System was hardly perfect and did not adequately reward finishing towards the front.

Note - this is not an endorsement of the current points scale or championship format. But there are certain aspects of it which are improvements over previous systems.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Actually it was not me who started complaining about the current format - read back bro. Despite how I feel about it, this format is what we've got and whichever champion comes out of it is the champ and that's that. That's really the only FACT anyone can throw out there. I have also not stated anything else as such - again read bro. Just some opinions about the old vs the new that's all. R-E-L-A-X.
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It was you who used the old system as a means of comparison to what’s happening now. You supplied a chart.

My reading comprehension skills are top notch and I’m not your bro.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
***********DISCLAIMER******* The information stated above is not intended to be presented as fact but rather my opinion based on years of watching NASCAR and supporting the sport. if my opinion in anyway offended anyone or left them feeling butt-hurt please know this was not my intention as I operate on the assumption of common sense. :)
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A simple IMO would suffice. Butt-hurt fits above.
 
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