Nascar Cup at the Indy Oval Pre-Race Thread

aunty dive said:
It was you who used the old system as a means of comparison to what’s happening now. You supplied a chart.

My reading comprehension skills are top notch and I’m not your bro.
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Only after Stan provided some racing reference info comparing Larson to Chase which was not even my argument to begin with. He said the format is junk basically and stated Larson was "dominant" this year which to me he's not. He's really good but not that far ahead. I only pointed out that he can hate the format because Larson may lose but even in the old he is not dominating. All valid points really. I think I will lobby NASCAR for a new system that only gives points to Chase. LOL
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
LOL. Dude, Larson is doing really well and having a fine season but he's just not "dominant." You want to see "dominant?" Check out Jeff Gordon's 1997 or Kevin Harvick's 2020. It seems like you are just setting up excuses for if Larson loses already saying the format is garbage and produces undeserving champions but as Revman said - that's just BS. Everyone knows the rules and what it takes to win. I then show you that even in the old format Larson is not dominating and you just laugh it off. I can honestly tell you that DO think Larsson has been the best overall car this year if not the most consistent but I still doubt he wins it all unless the Chevys figure out Phoenix. Maybe you should suggest a new championship format that favors laps led, wins and top 5's but then disregard crashes, DNFS and missed races because that seems to be what you are suggesting. LMAO. You are only looking at the stats you want to. It's called bias for your driver.
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You're literally referencing stats from a championship format that doesn't exist, a format that race teams don't execute the regular season based off of.

Larson would have a 50-60 point lead right now if he didn't miss the 600.
 
jaqua19 said:
You're literally referencing stats from a championship format that doesn't exist, a format that race teams don't execute the regular season based off of.

Larson would have a 50-60 point lead right now if he didn't miss the 600.
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That wasn't the point though. Stan was bitching about the playoff format because even though he thinks Larson has been dominant this year he understands he may well not win the title because of the current format. I was just pointing out that even in the old one he is not dominating. He's been the best car overall this year but not by a wide margin. Plus they had been fading some until the Indy win which, let's face it, circumstances really wen their way there and they still were not showing that blazing speed they had earlier in the year. I am well aware that he would have a larger lead if he had not missed the 600 but also already conceded that unless he DNF's early in an upcoming race he's likely got the regular season title locked up regardless.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
That wasn't the point though. Stan was bitching about the playoff format because even though he thinks Larson has been dominant this year he understands he may well not win the title because of the current format. I was just pointing out that even in the old one he is not dominating. He's been the best car overall this year but not by a wide margin. Plus they had been fading some until the Indy win which, let's face it, circumstances really wen their way there and they still were not showing that blazing speed they had earlier in the year. I am well aware that he would have a larger lead if he had not missed the 600 but also already conceded that unless he DNF's early in an upcoming race he's likely got the regular season title locked up regardless.
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If they had a points format that weighted wins stronger, then we probably wouldn't need the "win and in" system we have today
 
Charlie Spencer said:
How about ' Cuz'? Is that acceptable?
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Yep in most cases it is jus' fine and it indicates that one has bonded with their trusted (trust is the key word) cuz, even if they ain't technically cousins.
But never trust a Yankee (or someone with the uppity enunciation) that uses the term, unless you have known them for years and vetted them.

In those cases you need to keep your sawed off double barrel AR-15 handy and perhaps a home made flame throwing device (preferably rigged to oscillate as neeed from a pick up truck bed). Cause you cant ever trust them kind of people and the shiet is fixing to get real.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
If they had a points format that weighted wins stronger, then we probably wouldn't need the "win and in" system we have today
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I think that's exactly what they need to get rid of. "Win and you're in" (even though technically untrue potentially) is and has always been stupid. I'd like to see more of the classic points system with maybe more bonus points for wins until the "playoffs" when you do let the top 16 in and have the same format as now. Letting cars in with fluky wins is not good for the playoffs and makes them more watered down. Yes some guys might miss the playoffs for bad luck and DNF's in the regular season but that's just part of the drama. I really doubt it though considering with a little less bad luck Chase would have made it last year after missing 7 races. Plus no one can rack up playoff points and run and hide if they did it that way. Other sports don't allow crap like that. I'll use my own driver that I am apparently biased for as an example - In 22 Chase had an awesome regular season and racked up playoffs points that helped carry him all the way to the final 4. Truth is though, he had no business in the final 4 that year as they fell off as the year went on. If we had a system that maybe essentially gave a first round bye or something like that it would be much better,
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I think that's exactly what they need to get rid of. "Win and you're in" (even though technically untrue potentially) is and has always been stupid. I'd like to see more of the classic points system with maybe more bonus points for wins until the "playoffs" when you do let the top 16 in and have the same format as now. Letting cars in with fluky wins is not good for the playoffs and makes them more watered down. Yes some guys might miss the playoffs for bad luck and DNF's in the regular season but that's just part of the drama. I really doubt it though considering with a little less bad luck Chase would have made it last year after missing 7 races. Plus no one can rack up playoff points and run and hide if they did it that way. Other sports don't allow crap like that. I'll use my own driver that I am apparently biased for as an example - In 22 Chase had an awesome regular season and racked up playoffs points that helped carry him all the way to the final 4. Truth is though, he had no business in the final 4 that year as they fell off as the year went on. If we had a system that maybe essentially gave a first round bye or something like that it would be much better,
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I wouldn't be shocked if we see a switch to this one day. I really don't hate the playoffs, but this is a better way to qualify for it. Adds to battles throughout the pack which NBC has done a fantastic job showing. I know Fox gets criticism for really only following the leaders but to be fair, battling it out for playoff positions aren't really a major concern in the early season. Look at baseball, we really don't start doing the true playoff race stuff until mid August
 
Mispeedway15 said:
I wouldn't be shocked if we see a switch to this one day. I really don't hate the playoffs, but this is a better way to qualify for it. Adds to battles throughout the pack which NBC has done a fantastic job showing. I know Fox gets criticism for really only following the leaders but to be fair, battling it out for playoff positions aren't really a major concern in the early season. Look at baseball, we really don't start doing the true playoff race stuff until mid August
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I agree. There's lots of things they could do but overall, I remember they started the playoffs and this 16-car elimination by round because they wanted something similar to other sports culminating in a "game-7 type moment" which the old system hardly ever produced. 1992 may have been the only time. I still maintain the old system would work better now than it did before because there is more parity in the sport now and mechanical failures are far less common but I have gotten used to the 16-car elimination and like that a win will carry you to the next round regardless of all other factors. Hell, that's the only reason I still give Chase an outside shot at making the final 4 since he has so few playoff points. Either way though, essentially qualifying for the playoffs based on one race is just garbage. Imagine if other spouts said similar things...Can you imagine in MLB if they said "hey - if you have a 10-game winning streak at any point you're in." I am a NY Yankees fan and their season is a perfect example of the pits and valleys of a long regular season in that they were the best team in MLB until 06/13 and then from 06/13 through a week or 2 ago they were one of the worst. Now they are rebounding and on a hot streak again. Regular seasons are long and should be all about the big picture. Playoffs are short and should be about the small picture.
 
It’s been…. 20 years.
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Jorge De Guzman said:
It’s been…. 20 years.
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I notice you keep making the point that it's been a long time but really what does that matter? I don't think anyone (including myself) wants the old system back 100% as it rarely produced dramatic championship battles. I am only making the point that in my opinion it would be better now than it was then because the competition is closer and the cars are more durable. Plus I hate "win and you're in" and I hate playoff points that carry all the way through. It's not up to me though and if folks like the current format then good for them. If you don't agree though it would be interesting to hear why instead of reminding us of how ling it's been. That system was in place for longer than 20 years and yet it still changed.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
I notice you keep making the point that it's been a long time but really what does that matter? I don't think anyone (including myself) wants the old system back 100% as it rarely produced dramatic championship battles. I am only making the point that in my opinion it would be better now than it was then because the competition is closer and the cars are more durable. Plus I hate "win and you're in" and I hate playoff points that carry all the way through. It's not up to me though and if folks like the current format then good for them. If you don't agree though it would be interesting to hear why instead of reminding us of how ling it's been. That system was in place for longer than 20 years and yet it still changed.
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It's the same point that's been beaten to death for 20 years. Do you think you're the first person to bring up the points system debate here? It's exhausting hearing the same debate ad nauseum, especially when there's no inclination that NASCAR has thought or is thinking about going back. The kicker is I hated the Chase, hate the Playoffs and wish for the Winston Cup points system to come back, I thought it was the best way to crown a champion. The full season system isnt coming back, the networks are too entrenched with this way to go back now. So I guess my question is, what is it that is actually being debated here if at the end it's redundant and wasting time?
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
It's the same point that's been beaten to death for 20 years. Do you think you're the first person to bring up the points system debate here? It's exhausting hearing the same debate ad nauseum, especially when there's no inclination that NASCAR has thought or is thinking about going back. The kicker is I hated the Chase, hate the Playoffs and wish for the Winston Cup points system to come back, I thought it was the best way to crown a champion. The full season system isnt coming back, the networks are too entrenched with this way to go back now. So I guess my question is, what is it that is actually being debated here if at the end it's redundant and wasting time?
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But you keep biting I'll give ya that much lol. You are right though, this stuff has had all of the flavor chewed out of it a long time ago.
 
StandOnIt said:
But you keep biting I'll give ya that much lol. You are right though, this stuff has had all of the flavor chewed out of it a long time ago.
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I am. I was just thinking this as I hit send, its my own fault at this moment .
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
It's the same point that's been beaten to death for 20 years. Do you think you're the first person to bring up the points system debate here? It's exhausting hearing the same debate ad nauseum, especially when there's no inclination that NASCAR has thought or is thinking about going back. The kicker is I hated the Chase, hate the Playoffs and wish for the Winston Cup points system to come back, I thought it was the best way to crown a champion. The full season system isnt coming back, the networks are too entrenched with this way to go back now. So I guess my question is, what is it that is actually being debated here if at the end it's redundant and wasting time?
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Well the reality is that if it's "exhausting" you don't have to read. LOL. I think you're right that NASCAR is not looking at it right now but maybe that'[s the problem. Fans just keep walking and maybe they should listen. I am pretty surprised that you would want the old system back. Chase would be right in it for the title right now and I would not like to see it.
 
Chase Fan 79 said:
Well the reality is that if it's "exhausting" you don't have to read. LOL. I think you're right that NASCAR is not looking at it right now but maybe that'[s the problem. Fans just keep walking and maybe they should listen. I am pretty surprised that you would want the old system back. Chase would be right in it for the title right now and I would not like to see it.
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It's exhausting because this theory is filled with fiction and innuendo, maybe my TV is at the wrong angle but the stands this year have looked full to me.
 
StandOnIt said:
A number of sold out venues this year. The economy is stronger and the racing is better.
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but everyone is walking away from the sport and the fans at home arnt even watching. With all the doom and gloom, I cant figure out why TNT/Amazon wheeled a truckload of money to Daytona for media rights to broadcast races........ must be idiots I tell ya.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
but everyone is walking away from the sport and the fans at home arnt even watching. With all the doom and gloom, I cant figure out why TNT/Amazon wheeled a truckload of money to Daytona for media rights to broadcast races........ must be idiots I tell ya.
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Deathbedders make up around 17% of Nascar "fans" . Let them talk, they will tell ya what they are. Always complaining, it's never their way and their way is always the best way. It tis what it tis. I like to comment in about a sentence or two and make them write a couple of paragraphs lol.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
It's exhausting because this theory is filled with fiction and innuendo, maybe my TV is at the wrong angle but the stands this year have looked full to me.
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They are tricking you too? I am being 100% serious on this. Have you been to a race this season? I had the same opinion as you until I went to one. I was at Loudon earlier this year and at first glance it looked pretty packed but then I realized they have completely removed one section of grandstands effectively cutting the seating capacity by about 1/3. Look at Indy - When the cup cars are there the stands are mostly billboards. I am not saying the sport is in major trouble yet but attendance is way down. NASCAR is without a doubt being careful about when and where they put the camera on the crowd since empty seats are a bad look. They are also painting the seats in a color pattern that makes it a little harder to notice that the seat is empty. I know this sounds like conspiracy theory stuff but it's exactly what's happening. Some tracks I'm sure are better than others but overall it's way down.
 
StandOnIt said:
Deathbedders make up around 17% of Nascar "fans" . Let them talk, they will tell ya what they are. Always complaining, it's never their way and their way is always the best way. It tis what it tis. I like to comment in about a sentence or two and make them write a couple of paragraphs lol.
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You're always and extremist. No one is saying the sport is not making money because once it's not it will be gone. That said, it's fact that NASCAR's popularity and attendance are way down since the peak in the early 2000's. If you don't think that's true you're in denial. Just in my own personal life I know at least 4-5 people that have quit following since around that time and I'm only one person. One of those are a married couple that were so into it back in those days they had been to almost every track. Now they are not interested at all. The TV networks you are talking about are part of the problem too. They pay more money and get more control.
 
aunty dive said:
The facts say otherwise.
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Here are some facts. At NASCAR's peak at the end of 2005, there were 19 million viewers for the season finale. It's now averaging 2.86 million per race over the last year or so. I am not a math whiz apparently but I'm pretty sure that's BAD. Then there's this: .

Hopefully the Netflix series will help but anyone who thinks people are not leaving the sport are just kidding themselves. Maybe an argument can be made that the numbers are stabilizing but the trend from 2005 - now is extremely concerning.
 
2 Sweet said:
^^^ I'm convinced this dude is some AI generated plant, from a guy in Bangladesh or whatever
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Yeah that's pretty much what I'd say too if I could not make an argument. LMAO! If I were a robot I'd also have far less typos.
 
2 Sweet said:
^^^ I'm convinced this dude is some AI generated plant, from a guy in Bangladesh or whatever
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I think he’s writing a book.

The fact is that at present, compared to the recent past, attendance and TV viewership numbers are up.

2005 and the rest of the glory years are gone and won’t be back.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
everyone is walking away from the sport and the fans at home arnt even watching.
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That depends on what point you measure from. If you start from the early 2000s, then viewing and attendance are indeed down. If you start in the late 2000-teens, they're up. If you start in the late 1980s, they're phenomenal.

Personally, I prefer using a baseline that isn't a full generation old. Too many changes in viewing technologies and recreational spending habits for 2002 to be relevant. (See also points systems.)
 
Charlie Spencer said:
That depends on what point you measure from. If you start from the early 2000s, then viewing and attendance are indeed down. If you start in the late 2000-teens, they're up. If you start in the late 1980s, they're phenomenal.

Personally, I prefer using a baseline that isn't a full generation old. Too many changes in viewing technologies and recreational spending habits for 2002 to be relevant. (See also points systems.)
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I am sorry - I am having a hard time because this is a well thought out and logical response. LOL. Seriously though - fair point about generational stuff. There is an issue with folks having no attention span anymore. I used to watch races with my old man that were 6 hours long and be interested the whole time when I was 10-11 years old. Good luck finding that now.
 
aunty dive said:
I think he’s writing a book.

The fact is that at present, compared to the recent past, attendance and TV viewership numbers are up.

2005 and the rest of the glory years are gone and won’t be back.
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I don't see anything out there that says attendance and viewership is going up other than a possible slight uptick from the lowest point. I'd be happy to see it though.
 
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