2021 Silly Season

JGR_20 said:
I appreciate that. I was asking all that seriously because I wanted to make sure I had the correct understanding of the situation instead of assuming the whole picture.

I had seen photos of the 21 at one time or another at Penske and since then I’ve never really focused on that relationship more so I figured you folks would help clear that up.
:cool:
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I have been to the Wood Brothers shop a couple times. It has looked like JC Penny's at your local mall. The hauler was also at the Penske shop, so it seems to me to be a complete Penske "B" team.
 
Ernie_Irvan#4 said:


Hmmm, I wonder what it is?
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He stays at RPM, but has a CGR technical alliance.

I personally think McDonald's will be able to sponsor more races at a cheaper price on the 43. Will still do some races as a primary for the 42, but will still be an associate sponsor. I think that will be a great move for both sides and Chastain will still be in the 42 car next season. Just my two cents.
 
Ernie_Irvan#4 said:


Hmmm, I wonder what it is?
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Wild Ass Speculation here:

Dominos Pizza as a 5 race main sponsor. Bubba finishes top 10 and Medium One Topping Pizzas are $4.30!

But an alliance with CGR would be nice. CGR buying RPM as a third team would be better!

Making stuff up is such fun!
 
Hawaii808 said:
Bubba has had an owners stake in RPM since 2019? He also confirmed an offer from CGR for the #42?

its currently very good to be Bubba.
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I saw where they said he has had a stake already. So, will he keep that stake if he leaves RPM?
 
Team Penske said:
I think RCR was never a great organization but did really well on the back of a great driver
who was replaced by another pretty good driver. Richard couldn't drive so he had to make it as an owner and he got pretty darn lucky. Making his grandson the #1 driver was just another mistake in the long line of also ran drivers he has hired. His son should have stepped aside when he seen he wasn't good enough. That way they could possible have 2 decent drivers.
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Harvick is just pretty good? 11th on all time wins and still going.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't know why anyone would consider it. Matt D is 13th vs Erik's 18th, 509 in points vs. 453 (roughly 10%) more, is in the Chase, and seems to be a more mature driver. Sure, Erik has more top 5s and 10s but his other finishes are dragging him down.
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Matt has been running better as well but with some worse luck. He could easily be in the top 10 without getting caught up in someone else’s bs.
 
On pure talent, is Wallace on the same level as the brother Busch's, Harvick, Logano, Brad, Hamlin, and the next four-five drivers?

My take he is towards the front of the mid tier drivers, but a tad behind the top tier. Granted his current equipment is not from the three top stables right now, but it is affiliated with a winning 2020 team.
 
StandOnIt said:
Hey Jones, were you the only one in the world that couldn't see what was going to happen with preacher and the boys?

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I kind of thought the exact same thing. The minute that the 95 team announced they were looking to sell or close, Jones HAD to know the likely outcome of that, especially when he does (or at least should know) a LOT more about the situation and what the contracts are than any of us, and I sure don't think it was the slightest surprise to anyone who spends any actual time on this forum.......
 
Could be that the discussions were being done in such a way that Jones felt assured he was safe in his seat...

Maybe the team was leading him to believe something... Maybe jones got the impression Bell would still be in the 95 next year or something... then the last minute it all changed.

Only he and the team know what they had been discussing behind closed doors.

yea... from our standpoint as being the fans, we have kinda ran with this narrative for awhile now.
 
If he hadn't considered that something like this had a 50/50 chance of happening from the day Bell was assigned the 95 car, (Whether it shut down or not) than he is awfully naive.
 
Formerjackman said:
If he hadn't considered that something like this had a 50/50 chance of happening from the day Bell was assigned the 95 car, (Whether it shut down or not) than he is awfully naive.
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yeah and that is being conservative IMO. Stuffing Bell in that leftover junk that underfunded Leavine had to pay for when the Toyota bunch had only 4 cars other than that to support tells another story and more handwriting on the wall for Jones AND Bell to look at IMO. Toyota with only 4 competitive cars has been running drivers in and out if they don't immediately produce. Their track record with affiliates? I think they have a serious constipation problem with their "driver development program". It's putting a hell of a lot of pressure on their Cup teams.
 
Makes me wonder why they had so many drivers under development in the first place. It's been obvious for years that Kyle and Denny were lifers. I'm sure they anticipated dropping Kenseth, and Carl caught them flatfooted, but they appear to me to be bringing up way more drivers than they could ever need for a handful of seats.
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah and that is being conservative IMO. Stuffing Bell in that leftover junk that underfunded Leavine had to pay for when the Toyota bunch had only 4 cars other than that to support tells another story and more handwriting on the wall for Jones AND Bell to look at IMO. Toyota with only 4 competitive cars has been running drivers in and out if they don't immediately produce. Their track record with affiliates? I think they have a serious constipation problem with their "driver development program". It's putting a hell of a lot of pressure on their Cup teams.
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You cannot blame all of this on JGR. It was the timing of everything and if the pandemic had not come in like it did, I'm certain Leavine would be singing a different tune.

FRR shut down because 5-Hour Energy dipped at a horrible time and Visser did not feel like funding his own cars again. Not to mention, they beat JGR with their own equipment and it probably came with a price hike. Blame can go in multiple directions IMO.

Leavine bought into the JGR deal and then the Pandemic hit. His business was affected heavily by it and with Leavine still injecting the most money into his team, his arms were tied and he had to close the team because it just wasn't financially viable for him to continue.

The JGR deal is what it is, but to call it a kiss of death is a bit much. I posted the meme in the previous thread for laughs, but it has to be concerning for Toyota because other prospects seen what could possibly happen to their team if paired together. I guess your pockets need to be deep to do so.

I expect Toyota to just be JGR for a while with the outlier in Gaunt Brothers Racing. Gaunt is in no shape to form that technical alliance at the moment.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Makes me wonder why they had so many drivers under development in the first place. It's been obvious for years that Kyle and Denny were lifers. I'm sure they anticipated dropping Kenseth, and Carl caught them flatfooted, but they appear to me to be bringing up way more drivers than they could ever need for a handful of seats.
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I'd love to see what they're spending in NASCAR compared to the other manufacturers. While everyone seems to have a development program TRD seems to be running far more driver through theirs. When you run as many drivers as them you'd have to expect to hit a few good ones just with the odds.

Also its hard to say what the TRD business plan really is for the cup series. Do they want an additional 3 or more cars and the dollar figures are scaring people off?, or do they want to keep the group small?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Makes me wonder why they had so many drivers under development in the first place. It's been obvious for years that Kyle and Denny were lifers. I'm sure they anticipated dropping Kenseth, and Carl caught them flatfooted, but they appear to me to be bringing up way more drivers than they could ever need for a handful of seats.
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I'm no fan of the way Toyota have managed their talent, but to play devil's advocate:

1. Busch yes, Hamlin not so much. He was on the verge of being on the hot seat until his resurgence during the past 2-3 seasons.

2. There was a period in the 2010s when manufacturers were engaged in a development driver arms race. This has cooled somewhat since.

3. Remember MWR before spingate? There was a time that Toyota truly was supporting more than one viable organization, with up to 7 cars I believe. I don't think it was necessarily their grand plan to only end up with JGR as a sole front, though that is the way they've behaved of late.
 
wi_racefan said:
I'd love to see what they're spending in NASCAR compared to the other manufacturers. While everyone seems to have a development program TRD seems to be running far more driver through theirs. When you run as many drivers as them you'd have to expect to hit a few good ones just with the odds.

Also its hard to say what the TRD business plan really is for the cup series. Do they want an additional 3 or more cars and the dollar figures are scaring people off?, or do they want to keep the group small?
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They Lost Byron, Gragson and Deegan, Visser and now Leavine..and that didn't make any sense what so ever to loose Visser for Leavine in the first place. Now they got affiliate nothing and decent team owners don't grow on trees. So to me it looks like they think 4 cup cars are going to work. They are looking for instant success out of Bell I would think. When you only have 4 cars and they are pouring all their money into those 4 and they have a hell of a lot of overhead because they are building/controlling everything, that's a lot of pressure IMO on everybody.
 
gnomesayin said:
I'm no fan of the way Toyota have managed their talent, but to play devil's advocate:

1. Busch yes, Hamlin not so much. He was on the verge of being on the hot seat until his resurgence during the past 2-3 seasons.

2. There was a period in the 2010s when manufacturers were engaged in a development driver arms race. This has cooled somewhat since.

3. Remember MWR before spingate? There was a time that Toyota truly was supporting more than one viable organization, with up to 7 cars I believe. I don't think it was necessarily their grand plan to only end up with JGR as a sole front, though that is the way they've behaved of late.
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MWR was in a good place financially and Spingate literally killed them over time. Aaron's was pulling out and 5-Hour Energy was following Bowyer to HScott Motorsports in 2016. Maybe they decieded to go with the "quality over quanity" apporoach from 2016 onwards in the Cup series. Then went about doing more in the lower-tiers and especially in trucks. (Hattori, KBM, Halmar-Frisien, McAnally-Higgmann, and On Point) with a total of 8 trucks supported by Toyota.

They need answers in Cup, but what team is in a good enough position to team up with them in the mid-field to do that alliance?
 
MWR had Rodney Childers and that was about it. Toyota without any experience what so ever with Nascar racing made some mistakes (Mikey). I think their latest tack is to do more with less in the cup series. So far it is working, but at what cost? I also think their driver development is a shadow of it's former self. You'll get developed alright as long as you bring a wheelbarrow of money along. Brandon Jones and Herbst are examples of that but they aren't going anywhere. They might hoodwink Burton if Bell doesn't work out. But I think they are looking for a Nascar instant driver jesus to solve all of their problems.
 
Y’all forgot David Hyder.

Enjoyed hanging around hobby shops.
 
StandOnIt said:
MWR had Rodney Childers and that was about it. Toyota without any experience what so ever with Nascar racing made some mistakes (Mikey). I think their latest tack is to do more with less in the cup series. So far it is working, but at what cost? I also think their driver development is a shadow of it's former self. You'll get developed alright as long as you bring a wheelbarrow of money along. Brandon Jones and Herbst are examples of that but they aren't going anywhere. They might hoodwink Burton if Bell doesn't work out. But I think they are looking for a Nascar instant driver jesus to solve all of their problems.
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Not every driver in a development program is going to be an instantaneous success, but Hamlin was an instant success for them and the rest is history. Toyota wants another like him, but it just doesn't work like that. You are right though, Toyota has had more misses than hits. This is just looking at it from a Cup prospective because outside of Hamlin, who really is sole Toyota development driver who really made it in Cup. Kyle Busch was Chevy driver, Edwards was a Ford driver, Kenseth was Ford originally.

They are betting on Bell to be that next big thing now, I guess.
 
StandOnIt said:
Hey Jones, were you the only one in the world that couldn't see what was going to happen with preacher and the boys?

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“I was blindsided a little bit. " Could be they thought negotiations were on track until they lost the 95 team.
 
Formerjackman said:
If he hadn't considered that something like this had a 50/50 chance of happening from the day Bell was assigned the 95 car, (Whether it shut down or not) than he is awfully naive.
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Why? He may not be setting the world on fire in cup BUT he is doing better than a lot of other new drivers. This ear even Kyle can't get a win. They must be really missing that bondo.
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah and that is being conservative IMO. Stuffing Bell in that leftover junk that underfunded Leavine had to pay for when the Toyota bunch had only 4 cars other than that to support tells another story and more handwriting on the wall for Jones AND Bell to look at IMO. Toyota with only 4 competitive cars has been running drivers in and out if they don't immediately produce. Their track record with affiliates? I think they have a serious constipation problem with their "driver development program". It's putting a hell of a lot of pressure on their Cup teams.
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Let us not forget that Toyota is running this show. Not all decisions are the coaches.
 
Team Penske said:
Let us not forget that Toyota is running this show. Not all decisions are the coaches.
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I think he has little if any input on driver hires except who they tell him to go after. That was proven a long time ago with Kenseth. Gibbs was all in with Kenseth and then suddenly here comes Jones and TRD or whatever name they are going by left Gibbs in the lurch to come up with a good story. Now they don't even try to mask it. Now you have Toyota people announcing who they hire and fire. I wouldn't be surprised if Gibbs is drawing a check from Toyota
 
Kiante said:
Not every driver in a development program is going to be an instantaneous success, but Hamlin was an instant success for them and the rest is history. Toyota wants another like him, but it just doesn't work like that. You are right though, Toyota has had more misses than hits. This is just looking at it from a Cup prospective because outside of Hamlin, who really is sole Toyota development driver who really made it in Cup. Kyle Busch was Chevy driver, Edwards was a Ford driver, Kenseth was Ford originally.

They are betting on Bell to be that next big thing now, I guess.
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Hamlin was not a Toyota development driver either. He logged 79 Cup races in a Chevy before he crossed over to the dark side.
 
Team Penske said:
Why? He may not be setting the world on fire in cup BUT he is doing better than a lot of other new drivers. This ear even Kyle can't get a win. They must be really missing that bondo.
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Because he HAD to know that Bell was their new golden boy and that he was the fifth man at what is ultimately a four person table. At the VERY LEAST, he should have known the minute the rumors of the 95 team closing down or being sold that he was in REAL trouble, because if we understand it correctly, Toyota was contractually obligated to Bell. You don't have to be Einstein to figure out what was going to happen next.
 
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