'21 Generation 7 Car news

rd45usa

Panem et Circenses!...🍊🍊🍊🍊🍊
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
1,228
Points
243
Location
Florida
Are the diffusers a no touch zone? Wondering because of Penske and Haas involvement in open wheel and working with diffusers before.
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
But it's not rigid and you're given a tolerance when it comes to finished product. Does anyone honestly think the big teams are just going to bolt things on without finding the best way to bolt them on? If you're given a 0.030" tolerance and +.030" is better than -.030" I am willing to bet teams find a way to get it +.030". Seriously these are the same guys that figured out what angle you want to run the wiper blade at in dry weather and tried cutting slits in the wraps to manipulate the airflow. If there's an advantage these guys will find it.
You're exactly right and people are naive to think that no manipulation will be attempted. In regards to tolerancing, not just on the bodies, but even on say control arms... every manufactured part has a tolerance. Is anything stopping the big teams from buying five times as many control arms as needed, and then measuring each one to choose the ones that create a hair more camber than the rest of the batch? I think you'll see a lot of that now. Just because there's a spec shock now too, doesn't mean teams are going to throw their shock dynos away. Dyno a bunch and choose the ones you like best because not every shock is identical in performance even when they're the same model/part number. People have already been doing this in late models with spec shocks for years. Now the shock budget goes from making your own to constantly buying, testing, and sorting. Spec parts create savings in theory but also open a whole new can of worms in the process. It's just how racing is, and money will always prevail like that.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
54,179
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
There are all kinds of adjustment areas built in to the car. It isn't rocket science. There are also very advanced measuring systems in place. Post 4630 shows a few areas.
 

wi_racefan

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
2,000
Points
323
You're exactly right and people are naive to think that no manipulation will be attempted. In regards to tolerancing, not just on the bodies, but even on say control arms... every manufactured part has a tolerance. Is anything stopping the big teams from buying five times as many control arms as needed, and then measuring each one to choose the ones that create a hair more camber than the rest of the batch? I think you'll see a lot of that now. Just because there's a spec shock now too, doesn't mean teams are going to throw their shock dynos away. Dyno a bunch and choose the ones you like best because not every shock is identical in performance even when they're the same model/part number. People have already been doing this in late models with spec shocks for years. Now the shock budget goes from making your own to constantly buying, testing, and sorting. Spec parts create savings in theory but also open a whole new can of worms in the process. It's just how racing is, and money will always prevail like that.
That's exactly what I was getting at. However some people don't seem to agree.....

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
29,068
Points
883
You're exactly right and people are naive to think that no manipulation will be attempted. In regards to tolerancing, not just on the bodies, but even on say control arms... every manufactured part has a tolerance. Is anything stopping the big teams from buying five times as many control arms as needed, and then measuring each one to choose the ones that create a hair more camber than the rest of the batch? I think you'll see a lot of that now. Just because there's a spec shock now too, doesn't mean teams are going to throw their shock dynos away. Dyno a bunch and choose the ones you like best because not every shock is identical in performance even when they're the same model/part number. People have already been doing this in late models with spec shocks for years. Now the shock budget goes from making your own to constantly buying, testing, and sorting. Spec parts create savings in theory but also open a whole new can of worms in the process. It's just how racing is, and money will always prevail like that.
Camber is measured at the hub / wheel interface.

It doesn’t matter if a team has magic control arms.
 

acmerocket

Team Owner
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Messages
1,398
Points
243
i do think all teams will be testing and cataloging all parts,looking for different.just like they do with tires now.when i was racing.we had to run stock rods,no machine work.i would weigh 50 to find the 4 lightest one:biggrin:
 
Last edited:

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
Camber is measured at the hub / wheel interface.

It doesn’t matter if a team has magic control arms.
They're using shims as the intended means of camber adjustment, but if the holes machined in the control arms are located slightly different from one another, which they will be based on tolerancing, then it will affect the location of the balljoints and could offer a slight advantage if you find one that's on one end of the tolerance banding versus the others when going for max camber. I'm talking small advantages here, but any advantage in a sea of small possible advantages will matter here. The teams aren't going to lay down and do nothing and just use every part as-is without trying to work stack-up tolerances to their benefit.

It doesn't matter if you don't get it.
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
There are all kinds of adjustment areas built in to the car. It isn't rocket science. There are also very advanced measuring systems in place. Post 4630 shows a few areas.
Yeah, and every major team for years now has had all the same optical measuring systems in their own shops to find and sustain their builds at the limits and even find new gray-areas. The teams have just as much firepower as NASCAR and usually more. Why do you think NASCAR changes the rules around what the teams do, in a game of cat and mouse all the time?
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
29,068
Points
883
... but if the holes machined in the control arms are located slightly different from one another, which they will be based on tolerancing, then it will affect the location of the balljoints and could offer a slight advantage if you find one that's on one end of the tolerance banding versus the others ...
At this level, CNC machined components intended to be exactly the same are subjected to rigorous, documented quality control checks at various points in the manufacturing process. We no longer tig-weld tubular steel control arms on the bench.

I get where you’re coming from ... a place that Next Gen moves away from. That’s a fundamental design parameter.

I’m out ... The Chili Bowl awaits. 🥃
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
At this level, CNC machined components intended to be exactly the same are subjected to rigorous, documented quality control checks at various points in the manufacturing process. We no longer tig-weld tubular steel control arms on the bench.

I get where you’re coming from ... a place that Next Gen moves away from. That’s a fundamental design parameter.

I’m out ... The Chili Bowl awaits. 🥃
There is no such thing as "exactly the same" in machining and it's laughable that you think CNCs eliminate deviation. Inspection of these next-gen parts will still have tolerancing, and thus some degree of variation, and that degree of variation probably won't be down to the millionths when you consider that these are supposed to be budget-friendly components now, with budget-friendly being a next-gen "fundamental design parameter" in and of itself.
 

Spotter22

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
7,239
Points
693
There is no such thing as "exactly the same" in machining and it's laughable that you think CNCs eliminate deviation. Inspection of these next-gen parts will still have tolerancing, and thus some degree of variation, and that degree of variation probably won't be down to the millionths when you consider that these are supposed to be budget-friendly components now, with budget-friendly being a next-gen "fundamental design parameter" in and of itself.
You do know there is zero modification allowed on any part that goes on this car. Zero. I'm not gonna tell you a machined part is identical but the CNC is remarkably close, within thousandths of and inch and they are inspected and controlled and if they dont fall within the template they are thrown out.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
54,179
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
You do know there is zero modification allowed on any part that goes on this car. Zero. I'm not gonna tell you a machined part is identical but the CNC is remarkably close, within thousandths of and inch and they are inspected and controlled and if they dont fall within the template they are thrown out.
I believe the standard parts built by outside vendors are sealed. Fooling with any of that means harsh penalties
 

KTMLew01

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 31, 2017
Messages
3,363
Points
343
I believe the standard parts built by outside vendors are sealed. Fooling with any of that means harsh penalties
He's saying the parts will have major amounts of tolerance. I disagree. The whole point in "spec" parts is they be the same. These cars have the capability of +/-6 degrees of camber. I can't imagine a situation where more would be desirable on pavement. Just gonna eat the tire. As for the body alignment...I'd bet they will still get basically same inspection as the Gen6. Not much way to cheat. And penalties will be HUGE!

It's a whole new game, folks.
 

Team Penske

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
7,367
Points
643
I love it. On one hand, the teams can’t get enough parts to risk damaging a car in practice. On the other, they can get plenty enough that they can pick and choose which ones to use.
So JJ and Chad will still have the same pick of the crop like always. Oh wait, they have changed the names. :biggrin:
 

Team Penske

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
7,367
Points
643
I think in the long past, new teams or financially strapped teams would try to hire experienced drivers who could take a car and try to get the best finish possible with it. Then things changed and in the last few years teams went after the new young driver who could bring a few bucks to the table. Problem is/was these young drivers tried to hard and at the end of the day they loaded up smashed up cars and go back to the repair shop.

I think with limited product, for a short while, these young guns are going to get different marching orders and I think this will give us better races, more like what we were used to in the 80's and 90's.
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
I love it. On one hand, the teams can’t get enough parts to risk damaging a car in practice. On the other, they can get plenty enough that they can pick and choose which ones to use.
Yes, time will never allow for the situation to change, ever. We must always only have one or the other until the end of time.
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
He's saying the parts will have major amounts of tolerance. I disagree. The whole point in "spec" parts is they be the same. These cars have the capability of +/-6 degrees of camber. I can't imagine a situation where more would be desirable on pavement. Just gonna eat the tire. As for the body alignment...I'd bet they will still get basically same inspection as the Gen6. Not much way to cheat. And penalties will be HUGE!

It's a whole new game, folks.
I'm not saying the parts will have major amount of tolerance, I'm saying that the parts will still have tolerance though, and if you stack up several different favorable tolerances in any given assembly then it will and can alter the outcome of how that assembly functions. It's called stack-up and it affects ever assembly manufactured. I'm not speaking about some black art here, just common manufacturing sense
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
You do know there is zero modification allowed on any part that goes on this car. Zero. I'm not gonna tell you a machined part is identical but the CNC is remarkably close, within thousandths of and inch and they are inspected and controlled and if they dont fall within the template they are thrown out.
Re-read my post, I never once mentioned altering parts. I said that teams will measure and select the parts that best fit their performance goals because not every part will be exactly identical. Don't have any idea where you got the idea from that I was speaking about modifying any spec components.
 

Charlie Spencer

Road courses and short tracks.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
25,955
Points
883
Location
Lexington, SC
I said that teams will measure and select the parts that best fit their performance goals because not every part will be exactly identical.
In my uneducated opinion, the teams will quickly find there isn't enough difference in the parts to affect the racing to the point where it's worth the expense of stacking them up.
 

Spotter22

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
7,239
Points
693
Re-read my post, I never once mentioned altering parts. I said that teams will measure and select the parts that best fit their performance goals because not every part will be exactly identical. Don't have any idea where you got the idea from that I was speaking about modifying any spec components.

Your Post -
You said-

"You're exactly right and people are naive to think that no manipulation will be attempted". In regards to tolerancing, not just on the bodies, but even on say control arms... every manufactured part has a tolerance. Is anything stopping the big teams from buying five times as many control arms as needed, and then measuring each one to choose the ones that create a hair more camber than the rest of the batch? I think you'll see a lot of that now. Just because there's a spec shock now too, doesn't mean teams are going to throw their shock dynos away. Dyno a bunch and choose the ones you like best because not every shock is identical in performance even when they're the same model/part number. People have already been doing this in late models with spec shocks for years. Now the shock budget goes from making your own to constantly buying, testing, and sorting. Spec parts create savings in theory but also open a whole new can of worms in the process. It's just how racing is, and money will always prevail like that.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
54,179
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Your Post -
You said-

"You're exactly right and people are naive to think that no manipulation will be attempted". In regards to tolerancing, not just on the bodies, but even on say control arms... every manufactured part has a tolerance. Is anything stopping the big teams from buying five times as many control arms as needed, and then measuring each one to choose the ones that create a hair more camber than the rest of the batch? I think you'll see a lot of that now. Just because there's a spec shock now too, doesn't mean teams are going to throw their shock dynos away. Dyno a bunch and choose the ones you like best because not every shock is identical in performance even when they're the same model/part number. People have already been doing this in late models with spec shocks for years. Now the shock budget goes from making your own to constantly buying, testing, and sorting. Spec parts create savings in theory but also open a whole new can of worms in the process. It's just how racing is, and money will always prevail like that.
Oh wait! I meant... blah blah blah.
 

wi_racefan

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
2,000
Points
323
Your Post -
You said-

"You're exactly right and people are naive to think that no manipulation will be attempted". In regards to tolerancing, not just on the bodies, but even on say control arms... every manufactured part has a tolerance. Is anything stopping the big teams from buying five times as many control arms as needed, and then measuring each one to choose the ones that create a hair more camber than the rest of the batch? I think you'll see a lot of that now. Just because there's a spec shock now too, doesn't mean teams are going to throw their shock dynos away. Dyno a bunch and choose the ones you like best because not every shock is identical in performance even when they're the same model/part number. People have already been doing this in late models with spec shocks for years. Now the shock budget goes from making your own to constantly buying, testing, and sorting. Spec parts create savings in theory but also open a whole new can of worms in the process. It's just how racing is, and money will always prevail like that.
Still didn't say anything about altering. Just manipulation of spec parts by stacking of tolerances in a favorable way.
 

Spotter22

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Messages
7,239
Points
693
Still didn't say anything about altering. Just manipulation of spec parts by stacking of tolerances in a favorable way.
Semantics. The words that come before" Manipulation" in his sentence having meaning also
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
In my uneducated opinion, the teams will quickly find there isn't enough difference in the parts to affect the racing to the point where it's worth the expense of stacking them up.
Teams spend thousands of dollars in R&D to move literally a few pounds of weight in the chassis around to improve mass centralization. You don't think they'll spend money to work stack-up tolerancing to find a performance edge? These teams literally run CFD and/or windtunnel tests to analyze the effect of layering vinyl wrap over the a-posts. You're vastly underestimating the extent the teams will go to find performance. And now that the box has been tightened in which they can work, the more finite these details will become, but like always they will never stop working to optimize the cars.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
54,179
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Semantics. The words that come before" Manipulation" in his sentence having meaning also
Man, let it lie, they don't understand that I could and the engineers and techs don't dimension anything that leads to stacking tolerances. That is the first rule you learn in making repeatable parts. Besides if any of them would look at a few illustrations they could see the the car has all kinds of allowable adjustments front and rear BUT they can't go out of the tolerance that is written in the specs.
 

KTMLew01

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 31, 2017
Messages
3,363
Points
343
Man, let it lie, they don't understand that I could and the engineers and techs don't dimension anything that leads to stacking tolerances. That is the first rule you learn in making repeatable parts. Besides if any of them would look at a few illustrations they could see the the car has all kinds of allowable adjustments front and rear BUT they can't go out of the tolerance that is written in the specs.
Pushrods.
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
10,845
Points
883
I am a Toyota rally fan. I believe that rally is bit ahead of where NASCAR will eventually be--particularly with respect to electrification. Absolutely fascinating. NASCAR will have some sort of electrification by 2024 I think? Same gas engine with a spec electric motor. A variety of engine maps, etc. Pretty cool stuff. The bottom line is that it will impact performance--more than show. Rally has already gone spec chassis with individual manufacturer bodies--but the bodies--much like what NASCAR has done--is about dimensions and they have thankfully abandoned the direct consumer version link. Wanna see the future?.....WRC...IMO.
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
10,845
Points
883
Teams spend thousands of dollars in R&D to move literally a few pounds of weight in the chassis around to improve mass centralization. You don't think they'll spend money to work stack-up tolerancing to find a performance edge? These teams literally run CFD and/or windtunnel tests to analyze the effect of layering vinyl wrap over the a-posts. You're vastly underestimating the extent the teams will go to find performance. And now that the box has been tightened in which they can work, the more finite these details will become, but like always they will never stop working to optimize the cars.
So you can imagine the impact of building a brand new Camaro last year? After year of marginalizing that advantage, and you post this?
 

cheesepuffs

F you and see ya tomorrow
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
1,336
Points
343
Location
Sunnyvale Trailer Park, Nova Scotia, Canada
So you can imagine the impact of building a brand new Camaro last year? After year of marginalizing that advantage, and you post this?
I'm not marginalizing it, I'm saying it's what the sanctioning body saw fit and also each manufacturer shares their baseline aero data with the others, so it's not like it was some surprise to Toyota. NASCAR has played give and take with the manufacturers for literally decades, so bark up another tree if all the sudden that came to you as some type of breaking news in the past couple of seasons.
 

Revman

You can't handle the truth!
Joined
Jan 12, 2014
Messages
10,845
Points
883
I'm not marginalizing it, I'm saying it's what the sanctioning body saw fit and also each manufacturer shares their baseline aero data with the others, so it's not like it was some surprise to Toyota. NASCAR has played give and take with the manufacturers for literally decades, so bark up another tree if all the sudden that came to you as some type of breaking news in the past couple of seasons.
Did you ever talk about the Camaro II as an "advantage," or just "leveling the playing field?" Chevy couldn't help but be better with what they had screwed up....but then the COVID/devlopment freeze was bull****. I get that NASCAR was in a pickle nobody could have seen coming, but what bothers me is the narrative. Even Jim Campbell recognized it, and I was honestly impressed that he did so. Class act for a guy who wouldn't touch Larson until he was winning.
 
Top Bottom