'21 Generation 7 Car news

StandOnIt

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Would you explain how wheels like these hamper pit stops? I'm not into wheels at all and have never been on a pit crew or used an air gun. I see the same five nuts as before.

Thanks.
surely you should know the difference between the two, you can count to five, you know what a lug nut is, you should know how to use Google and have reasonable reasoning skills to do a search between the two. Maybe you can spot the difference than just 5 lug nuts. By the way that is a conical shaped piece in the center that helps the pit gun socket find the nut on the wheel.
 

bigspud

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with the exception of a few spoilerites, almost everyone thinks the car is bad ass. Of course the D/F will never be right and neither will horsepower for some, but that is your basic Nascar fan, couldn't please em no matter what ya do.
i would be happy if they used real stock cars, just like they used to do.
not these iroc type crap wagons.
 

SpeedPagan

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This might come as a surprise but “run what you brung” were never stock cars. If they were, they lost.
Even back in the moonshine days, the cars were soup'd up so that they could outrun the police. I don't think there ever was an era where the cars were truly "stock."
 

KTMLew01

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Even back in the moonshine days, the cars were soup'd up so that they could outrun the police. I don't think there ever was an era where the cars were truly "stock."
Bigspud

We now have production cars available with 800+ hp right off the showroom floor. The problem with those cars for high-bank OVAL track racing is you would have to build a tubular frame to attach a-arms & ball joint attached spindles to the front end. Strut suspension just won't cut it for high lateral load. At least not economically enough. I know rally cars use them. But they ain't "stock" cars either.
 

SpeedPagan

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Bigspud

We now have production cars available with 800+ hp right off the showroom floor. The problem with those cars for high-bank OVAL track racing is you would have to build a tubular frame to attach a-arms & ball joint attached spindles to the front end. Strut suspension just won't cut it for high lateral load. At least not economically enough. I know rally cars use them. But they ain't "stock" cars either.
What is Bigspud?
 

Formerjackman

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So the pit stops might be slower. Who the frack cares about a 1.5 second slower stop. Same for everyone. I'll never understand people that select machinery based on aesthetics either. Some of you just can't be satisfied. They have been trying to "fix" the racing by changing the cars over & over last 15 years. If they are going to do it again how about starting with a clean sheet of paper. NOTHING should be off the table. Why stay stuck in 1950? I don't see the benefit. I've been watching since early 70's. They get one last chance to do things right for me.
I'm not suggesting that it matters one bit if the pit stops were slower, but you asked a question, so I answered it. I promise you that if NASCAR adopts this type of wheel, they WILL be constructed with better lugnut access. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "everything on the table". Can you offer some suggestions of what you think NASCAR should consider?
 

KTMLew01

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I'm not suggesting that it matters one bit if the pit stops were slower, but you asked a question, so I answered it. I promise you that if NASCAR adopts this type of wheel, they WILL be constructed with better lugnut access. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "everything on the table". Can you offer some suggestions of what you think NASCAR should consider?
I see some people saying don't use knock-off wheels/paddle shifters/has-to-be an V-8, etc. IMO...if they don't get this right this time the sport won't survive even at the current level. So many people under age of 40 don't see how the cars/racing is relevant. now. That isn't going to change unless some radical things are done. There should be at least six manufacturers in the sport running V-6 or Turbo 4 cyl. Maybe even all wheel drive. Has there been any official announcement on IRS? A little smoke but not much fire so far.
 

Formerjackman

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Even back in the moonshine days, the cars were soup'd up so that they could outrun the police. I don't think there ever was an era where the cars were truly "stock."
From 1949 to about 1962, the cars were INCREDIBLY stock. Most of the modifications were safety related, and certain modifications were eventually allowed, but often had to be a stock factory part, like the 1957 Chevys using 6 lug Chevy pickup truck hubs and rims for greater durability. Remember that at the first "Cup" race, Lee Petty borrowed somebody's street car, raced it and crashed it. The winner of that race was disqualified because it had modified read springs. Even in the late 60's the teams were still using stock body shells to construct their cars. Before that they were using complete running street cars. Richard Petty has talked many times about getting new Plymouths, and tearing out the carpeting and trim to start making them into races cars. The big change in stock car construction came in the mid-60's when Ford went to a unibody design for their intermediate sized cars. It was quickly found that even in modified form, these cars were hopeless, so NASCAR began allowing them to graft the front frame sections from full frame Ford models onto these cars.
 

Formerjackman

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I see some people saying don't use knock-off wheels/paddle shifters/has-to-be an V-8, etc. IMO...if they don't get this right this time the sport won't survive even at the current level. So many people under age of 40 don't see how the cars/racing is relevant. now. That isn't going to change unless some radical things are done. There should be at least six manufacturers in the sport running V-6 or Turbo 4 cyl. Maybe even all wheel drive. Has there been any official announcement on IRS? A little smoke but not much fire so far.
In my opinion, the single nut wheels are a no go because street cars don't have them, but more importantly it waters down a significant skill set that pit crews must have. I know the team owners would like to dumb down pitstops so they can hire just anybody to do the work, but at the highest level of motorsport, I want to see the most talented pit crews. In order to have a paddle shifter, you have to change to a totally different type of transmission. I suspect this indeed will come, but once again, you are dumbing down the skill level. If I had my way. they would still be using T-10 or Muncie type transmissions so we could see who REALLY has skill on the road courses. Any dolt can run a road course with a paddle shifter, and the current transmissions NASCAR use require only a little bit more skill. Regardless of my opinions, I'm sure paddle shift transmissions aren't too far off. If NASCAR goes back to stock type engines, it will be difficult enough for awhile to get the balance of performance right between the competing makes without bringing in the complexities of totally different engines and aspiration types. It may well come in the future, but there are only so many mountains you can climb at one time. If they insist on incorporating hybrid technology into these cars, you will likely get your all wheel drive wish. I'm not in favor of it, but I'm sure NASCAR doesn't care what I think. As far as I know, I thought IRS was a done deal.
 

Charlie Spencer

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surely you should know the difference between the two,
Well, I don't, and don't call me Shirley.
you can count to five, you know what a lug nut is,
That's why I said I see the same five lug nuts as the current wheels.
you should know how to use Google and have reasonable reasoning skills to do a search between the two.
I'm not sure what terms you would have me Google. "Street wheels vs. racing wheels" returned nothing but advertisements for chrome after-market. Nothing about which ones are easier or harder to change in a pit stop, or why.
By the way that is a conical shaped piece in the center that helps the pit gun socket find the nut on the wheel.
Okay, now that's useful information I didn't know. That's the kind of pit stop detail I was hoping for. Couldn't a raised hub be added to any proposed new 'street like' wheels?

If you don't want to answer, fine. But I looked again at the wheels in the Mustang photo you posted, and I honestly don't see why they'd be harder to change. Hit the nuts five times, take it off, put the new one on, hit the nuts another five times. If anything, I'd think having the nuts less recessed would make them easier to reach.
 
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Formerjackman

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Well, I don't, and don't call me Shirley.

That's why I said I see the same five lug nuts as the current wheels.

I'm not sure what terms you would have me Google. "Street wheels vs. racing wheels" returned nothing but advertisements for chrome after-market. Nothing about which ones are easier or harder to change in a pit stop, or why.

Okay, now that's useful information I didn't know. That's the kind of pit stop detail I was hoping for. Couldn't a raised hub be added to any proposed new 'street like' wheels?

If you don't want to answer, fine. But I looked again at the wheels in the Mustang photo you posted, and I honestly don't see why they'd be harder to change. Hit the nuts five times, take it off, put the new one on, hit the nuts another five times. If anything, I'd think having the nuts less recessed would make them easier to reach.

One of the issues is that the opening on the socket used on the impact gun has a rather large opening so that the crews don't have to be as precise when they hit each stud, in fact it's made to engage the lugnut while the socket is still spinning. It is also made to not get the lug nut stuck in the socket, even if it starts to round off, and can usually get one off even if it is rounding and has to eject the old nut out. The amount of engineering that goes into those pit sockets alone would blow most people's mind. That type of socket simply wouldn't fit down in those recessed holes, so you either change the socket or open that area of the wheel up, which is really not a problem.
 

KTMLew01

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One of the issues is that the opening on the socket used on the impact gun has a rather large opening so that the crews don't have to be as precise when they hit each stud, in fact it's made to engage the lugnut while the socket is still spinning. It is also made to not get the lug nut stuck in the socket, even if it starts to round off, and can usually get one off even if it is rounding and has to eject the old nut out. The amount of engineering that goes into those pit sockets alone would blow most people's mind. That type of socket simply wouldn't fit down in those recessed holes, so you either change the socket or open that area of the wheel up, which is really not a problem.
These guys are racers. They'll figure it out.
 

Mispeedway15

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In my opinion, the single nut wheels are a no go because street cars don't have them, but more importantly it waters down a significant skill set that pit crews must have. I know the team owners would like to dumb down pitstops so they can hire just anybody to do the work, but at the highest level of motorsport, I want to see the most talented pit crews. In order to have a paddle shifter, you have to change to a totally different type of transmission. I suspect this indeed will come, but once again, you are dumbing down the skill level. If I had my way. they would still be using T-10 or Muncie type transmissions so we could see who REALLY has skill on the road courses. Any dolt can run a road course with a paddle shifter, and the current transmissions NASCAR use require only a little bit more skill. Regardless of my opinions, I'm sure paddle shift transmissions aren't too far off. If NASCAR goes back to stock type engines, it will be difficult enough for awhile to get the balance of performance right between the competing makes without bringing in the complexities of totally different engines and aspiration types. It may well come in the future, but there are only so many mountains you can climb at one time. If they insist on incorporating hybrid technology into these cars, you will likely get your all wheel drive wish. I'm not in favor of it, but I'm sure NASCAR doesn't care what I think. As far as I know, I thought IRS was a done deal.
You think they’re unskilled in F1? Those are some of the most impressive pit stops I’ve ever seen
 

Charlie Spencer

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You think they’re unskilled in F1? Those are some of the most impressive pit stops I’ve ever seen
Interesting. I think F1 stops are the least impressive. Each man is dedicated to a single task . They're already in place when then car pulls in. As noted, they only have to worry about one nut per wheel. They don't have to get up before the car can leave, no responsibility for loose tires or equipment. There's no choreography at all. Heck, under current rules they don't even have to refuel the car. Everything possible has been done to eliminate human error.

The driver's part of the stop is impressive; he has a lot smaller area to put the car in than a stock car driver. The overall stops are indeed lightning fast but the don't impress me as much as stops that require multiple duties of each crewman. Stops impress me more when done well despite the chance for mistakes, not because that chance has been engineered out.

Sports car stops impress me more. Smaller crews, each man doing more, often making substantial repairs while remaining competitive, having to make a butt load of stops during the endurance races, and changing out drivers.

Just me, no big deal. I'm definitely not saying F1 crews aren't skilled.
 
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Formerjackman

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Interesting. I think F1 stops are the least impressive. Each man is dedicated to a single task . They're already in place when then car pulls in. As noted, they only have to worry about one nut per wheel. They don't have to get up before the car can leave, no responsibility for loose tires or equipment. There's no choreography at all. Heck, under current rules they don't even have to refuel the car. Everything possible has been done to eliminate human error.

The driver's part of the stop is impressive; he has a lot smaller area to put the car in than a stock car driver. The overall stops are indeed lightning fast but the don't impress me as much as stops that require multiple duties of each crewman. Stops impress me more when done well despite the chance for mistakes, not because that chance has been engineered out.

Sports car stops impress me more. Smaller crews, each man doing more, often making substantial repairs while remaining competitive, having to make a butt load of stops during the endurance races, and changing out drivers.

Just me, no big deal. I'm definitely not saying F1 crews aren't skilled.
I agree with your assessment. F1 pit stops don't impress me at all.
 

Mispeedway15

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Interesting. I think F1 stops are the least impressive. Each man is dedicated to a single task . They're already in place when then car pulls in. As noted, they only have to worry about one nut per wheel. They don't have to get up before the car can leave, no responsibility for loose tires or equipment. There's no choreography at all. Heck, under current rules they don't even have to refuel the car. Everything possible has been done to eliminate human error.

The driver's part of the stop is impressive; he has a lot smaller area to put the car in than a stock car driver. The overall stops are indeed lightning fast but the don't impress me as much as stops that require multiple duties of each crewman. Stops impress me more when done well despite the chance for mistakes, not because that chance has been engineered out.

Sports car stops impress me more. Smaller crews, each man doing more, often making substantial repairs while remaining competitive, having to make a butt load of stops during the endurance races, and changing out drivers.

Just me, no big deal. I'm definitely not saying F1 crews aren't skilled.
That’s wild. You have to be absolutely perfect on your stops in F1 and insanely quick. If you have to unscrew one big lock, rip the tire off, and put a new one on any slight bobble can be devastating
 

StandOnIt

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That’s wild. You have to be absolutely perfect on your stops in F1 and insanely quick. If you have to unscrew one big lock, rip the tire off, and put a new one on any slight bobble can be devastating
They haven't reduced the number of crewmen that pit the car making the stop much harder like Nascar has. I guess they are fine with controlled pit speed limiters 3 people to change one tire, and a crew of 20 to pit the car. I guess the main problem would be bumping into each other
 

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Was watching the Sonoma replay, and thinking about what the independent rear suspension might do to lap times on road courses. Gonna be fun.
 

wi_racefan

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When talking about reducing costs a lot of money could be saved if something was done with this new car to reduce the need of such highly skilled crew members. First thing that comes to mind to me is slowing the fueling process enough to increase pit time, thus reducing speed needed for tire changers.

Look much money is spent of pit crews. Pit crew coaches, training facilities, specialized pit equipment...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 

StandOnIt

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When talking about reducing costs a lot of money could be saved if something was done with this new car to reduce the need of such highly skilled crew members. First thing that comes to mind to me is slowing the fueling process enough to increase pit time, thus reducing speed needed for tire changers.

Look much money is spent of pit crews. Pit crew coaches, training facilities, specialized pit equipment...

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
it is already bring kicked around. With stand alone Xfinity and Truck races they are talking about going to ARCA style pitting. Cars line up in the same position they came in.
 

bigspud

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Bigspud

We now have production cars available with 800+ hp right off the showroom floor. The problem with those cars for high-bank OVAL track racing is you would have to build a tubular frame to attach a-arms & ball joint attached spindles to the front end. Strut suspension just won't cut it for high lateral load. At least not economically enough. I know rally cars use them. But they ain't "stock" cars either.
that 800 hp cant turn, a 500hp car that can turn is faster on an oval.
 

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Another cost cutting measure, phase out the pit crews, if only they could phase out the tire and fuel costs. Perhaps a renegotiation is in order.
 

Charlie Spencer

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That’s wild. You have to be absolutely perfect on your stops in F1 and insanely quick. If you have to unscrew one big lock, rip the tire off, and put a new one on any slight bobble can be devastating
I don't see how that's more costly than screwing up a stop in any other series. Each F1 crewman has fewer duties, fewer opportunities to make a mistake.

F1 pit stops are a set of individual acts; there's no teamwork. Carriers don't hand tires off to changers; nobody relies on someone behind the wall to catch a rolling tire or hand over a second can of gas; no one has to dodge around a fueler or a jack man; no one has to time their actions with the driver's so they can cross in front of the car while it's still moving into position.

Again, I'm definitely not saying F1 crewmen aren't skilled, but what they do strikes me as requiring a much less diverse set of skills than crewmen in other series. The stops as a whole are far less impressive.
 

StandOnIt

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I don't see how that's more costly than screwing up a stop in any other series. Each F1 crewman has fewer duties, fewer opportunities to make a mistake.

F1 pit stops are a set of individual acts; there's no teamwork. Carriers don't hand tires off to changers; nobody relies on someone behind the wall to catch a rolling tire or hand over a second can of gas; no one has to dodge around a fueler or a jack man; no one has to time their actions with the driver's so they can cross in front of the car while it's still moving into position.

Again, I'm definitely not saying F1 crewmen aren't skilled, but what they do strikes me as requiring a much less diverse set of skills than crewmen in other series. The stops as a whole are far less impressive.
now if they tried the same thing with 20 trained monkeys they would have something.
 

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that 800 hp cant turn, a 500hp car that can turn is faster on an oval.
Which was exactly my point. 500HP is fairly easily achieved with a V-6 or Turbo four cylinder. If you slow the cars down from say 190 at corner entry to even 170 the racing would improve. Plus the rock hard tires have to go.
 

StandOnIt

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Which was exactly my point. 500HP is fairly easily achieved with a V-6 or Turbo four cylinder. If you slow the cars down from say 190 at corner entry to even 170 the racing would improve. Plus the rock hard tires have to go.
If you are going to do that, why not just run the IMSA cars with Nascar decals on them. Not going to happen, V8's are Nascar's identity and the Nascar brass are saying they are staying with them.
 

Charlie Spencer

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now if they tried the same thing with 20 trained monkeys they would have something.
That shouldn't be too much trouble. Didn't Mikey says they were already trained to run a plate race? A pit stop should be a piece of cake, although you'd need a 21st one to sweep up the crap scared out when the car comes in hot.

EDIT: glad BZF isn't around to latch onto that idea. :rolleyes:
 

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If you are going to do that, why not just run the IMSA cars with Nascar decals on them. Not going to happen, V8's are Nascar's identity and the Nascar brass are saying they are staying with them.
If cutting costs is one of the top priorities, it makes ZERO sense to stray from the traditional small block V8's. We don't need DOHC turbo V6 hybrid engines revving to 12k.

The car/chassis is the problem that needs to be addressed, NOT the motor.
 

Charlie Spencer

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If cutting costs is one of the top priorities, it makes ZERO sense to stray from the traditional small block V8's. We don't need DOHC turbo V6 hybrid engines revving to 12k.

The car/chassis is the problem that needs to be addressed, NOT the motor.
That depends on the problem being addressed. If they're trying to make the cars more like the factory product, changing the power plant may make sense. Isn't that why 18" wheels are coming? It's not like there's a performance issue with the 15-inchers the teams already own.
 

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That depends on the problem being addressed. If they're trying to make the cars more like the factory product, changing the power plant may make sense. Isn't that why 18" wheels are coming? It's not like there's a performance issue with the 15-inchers the teams already own.
Changing the wheel style/size is an easy (cheap) enough change. If the manufacturers want it for aesthetic reasons, sure, go for it. As far as performance benefits, if it forces Goodyear to develop a tire that leads to better racing, great.

Developing a more complex (expensive) engine does nothing to help the product. Your average fan won't know/care about the difference. If anything, they might complain that the new engines don't sound as good. Would there be a performance benefit? I fail to see the reason for change, unless they are banking on Honda to join and those are the stipulations. Changing (and investing tons of $$$) just to appease a new OEM would likely alienate our current three manufacturers, so again, I don't see the benefit.
 
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