'21 Generation 7 Car news

[Revman]

Probably right, and BOP sucks. When Steve Phelps appeared in the Dale Jr Download, I believe he was talking specifically about the new engine when he said something like... we are still using 1950's-1960's technology. When I heard that, my thought was... we'll probably see overhead cam V8's, maybe 4 liters or so. But now I see reference to blown or turbocharged motors, which I agree would require BOP... and I think that would be a slippery slippery slope.

This is my sentiment as well.

Danny bristled at the 1950's-60's technology....he said that there has been so much high tech evolution that while the basic idea is old, the development is very, very current and relevant.

 

[LewTheShoe]

Danny bristled at the 1950's-60's technology....he said that there has been so much high tech evolution that while the basic idea is old, the development is very, very current and relevant.

Rev, my view is that Nascar racecars use stone age architecture, but executed in a modern, highly sophisticated way. I think you are saying basically the same. But I think the OEMs want to move the stone age part forward a few decades... independent rear suspension for one, overhead cams for another. Just to eliminate the most obvious targets for ridicule. I'm OK with both... but I hope they don't open it up to 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder engines with BOP equivalence to V8s.

 

[gnomesayin]

I hope they don't open it up to 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder engines with BOP equivalence to V8s.

That sounds ghastly. That would be a huge departure and I don't get the impression that much divergence is where they're heading. I would think they want a unified compromise framework that they have reason to believe will be appealing to more manufacturers.

My concern is that they may be so taken with the idea of welcoming new OEMs that they will essentially guarantee close to equal performance via BoP adjustments. Some want this to become a "drivers' series", I liked that Toyota and Dodge had to work long and hard to claw their way into contention.

 

[LewTheShoe]

That sounds ghastly.

I agree. I hope Nascar doesn't go there. But it's exactly what Australian Supercars have done... V8 is no longer part of the name because 2.0 turbo fours are legal now IIRC. And Revman's post above specifically mentioned forced induction..

 

[Team Penske]

I think this will be the big swing to save the series. Hit or miss....anybody's guess. As @gnomesayin mentioned manufacturer relevance is probably a big piece of this. I like that part, but how relevant is anything with all of the talk about standardized parts? It's going to be interesting that is for sure.

When it comes to parts in the industry, every manufacturer of parts supply all car manufactures
so why should it be any different in racing? The new reality for Nascar is the days of big sponsors is over and they have to lower their costs to match what is available. Moving the decimal point to the left will make no difference regarding competitiveness.
Just look at the pit guns as an example. Once the wrinkles were ironed out, we are back to very competitive pit stops and no one is spending millions to build a gun.
I find the Gen 7 car at this point to be really exciting and hope they take Penske's advice.

 

[Team Penske]

Rev, my view is that Nascar racecars use stone age architecture, but executed in a modern, highly sophisticated way. I think you are saying basically the same. But I think the OEMs want to move the stone age part forward a few decades... independent rear suspension for one, overhead cams for another. Just to eliminate the most obvious targets for ridicule. I'm OK with both... but I hope they don't open it up to 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder engines with BOP equivalence to V8s.

I have no problem with modern engines. I understand the thrill of standing next to a big block and listen to the deep throat rumble. However they haven't made those engines in over 30 years and many people today have never heard that sound.
I can remember back 40 years ago when a 4 cyl engine kicked ass when up against a 350 CI engine tuned out to 375 HP.
BTW, one extra shift in the tranny can negate the big block AND make racing more interesting.

 

[StandOnIt]

I have no problem with modern engines. I understand the thrill of standing next to a big block and listen to the deep throat rumble. However they haven't made those engines in over 30 years and many people today have never heard that sound.
I can remember back 40 years ago when a 4 cyl engine kicked ass when up against a 350 CI engine tuned out to 375 HP.
BTW, one extra shift in the tranny can negate the big block AND make racing more interesting.

Probably be a good idea for some who love that sound to start recording the crank it up segments. As long as we are taking a WAG (wild ass guess) at what the future is going to be, The Ford guru has stated that he is excited because the cars are going to be closer to what a consumer can buy off of the show room floor. He also said he liked the changes that are happening underneath the car. Not much to read between the lines there if that continues to be true. I think the big three already in the series don't have much of a problem, they all have bodies and engines to use. Of course they will be in name only, nobody could possibly buy one from the show room floor. Anybody else that wanted in it would take a little to a lot depending on the brand. Dodge for instance. They almost have to compete if it is that easy. I think that is the goal for all involved

 

[Zerkfitting]

At the speeds they run the shape of the body is key. It has to be the same for everyone otherwise one design will be superior and that would create a problem.

 

[StandOnIt]

At the speeds they run the shape of the body is key. It has to be the same for everyone otherwise one design will be superior and that would create a problem.

if that happens with more realistic looking bodies, and it is almost impossible to see why it wouldn't in most cases, that is where the BOP (balance of performance) comes in. Back in the day, France Jr used to do that all of the time when the bodies were more show room looking. Pretty sure all of the tricks manufacturers pulled back in the day and many more by them and the teams will be coming when they open up that can of worms. Nascar is going to have their hands full and ya think there is plenty of whining about inspections? You ain't seen nothin yet.

 

[Revman]

When it comes to parts in the industry, every manufacturer of parts supply all car manufactures
so why should it be any different in racing? The new reality for Nascar is the days of big sponsors is over and they have to lower their costs to match what is available. Moving the decimal point to the left will make no difference regarding competitiveness.
Just look at the pit guns as an example. Once the wrinkles were ironed out, we are back to very competitive pit stops and no one is spending millions to build a gun.
I find the Gen 7 car at this point to be really exciting and hope they take Penske's advice.

Fabulous post. Thank you. Very well said. Great points.

 

[Revman]

Rev, my view is that Nascar racecars use stone age architecture, but executed in a modern, highly sophisticated way. I think you are saying basically the same. But I think the OEMs want to move the stone age part forward a few decades... independent rear suspension for one, overhead cams for another. Just to eliminate the most obvious targets for ridicule. I'm OK with both... but I hope they don't open it up to 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder engines with BOP equivalence to V8s.

Well said. I agree.

 

[StandOnIt]

Rev, my view is that Nascar racecars use stone age architecture, but executed in a modern, highly sophisticated way. I think you are saying basically the same. But I think the OEMs want to move the stone age part forward a few decades... independent rear suspension for one, overhead cams for another. Just to eliminate the most obvious targets for ridicule. I'm OK with both... but I hope they don't open it up to 2.5 liter turbo four cylinder engines with BOP equivalence to V8s.

If they get the screaming lil 4 bangers in the series huffing and puffing their way around the track it would make the show more interesting. I really don't think it would happen if the car weight is heavy enough. Yeah they would have the speed, but dependability could be a factor. I haven't heard anybody of importance talk about 4 bangers, or sixes for that matter. But I would say the 6's have a much better chance of being included. Corvette and Ford already have a 6 cylinder racing engine. I don't know about Toyota, I would imagine they have more than one, the Yota experts will know. Personally I hope they stay with the 8's thru out, but I am not making the decisions. Marketing wise, most fans have a four or a six under the hood if that matters somehow.

 

[ReturnTrip]

I'd take a bad ass 4 or 6 cylinder over a gimped V8. Wouldn't mind seeing a more modern V8 with a smaller displacement either. As long as they run them without plates everywhere but Talladega/Daytona.

 

[FLRacingFan]

Forced induction is a surprise to me, but almost certainly something they've taken away from discussions with manufacturers. Makes sense, I suppose. With how similar most road cars are nowadays the powerplant is probably the biggest single differentiator between most models - and in that same vein, why they're going more towards the pony car route over the cookie cutter sedans. I'm not sure turbos will go over too well with much of "the base", however.

 

[Acs]

I think this has been mentioned before, but a turbocharged engine could really bring the high line into play at a lot of tracks. Being able to keep the turbo spooled up will be a big advantage to those able to run the top. So if they do allow turbo engines, I sincerely hope it’s in the form of a single, large, laggy turbo and not two twins or a bi-turbo. That will really punish off-throttle time and create more passing...kinda like the low downforce package did at first.

 

[Acs]

My predictions on the Gen 7 car:
I think it's going to be mandated that the 3 OEM's take the same approach that TRD pioneered and that Ford has recently copied. It's clearly left Chevy in the dust. No more race teams manufacturing their own parts, everything will be produced and supplied by the OEM and cost controlled at that level. Teams will have the freedom to setup the car as far as shocks and such to their liking, but mounting and assembly is going to be tightly regulated to each OEM. I think NASCAR is going to mandate a spec chassis for all three makes and supplied by a 3rd party provider. It's pretty close to that already just that race teams get to build their own. Composite bodies are clearly the way to go and it makes it far easier to balance out the aero between makes while keeping distinctive profiles. Speaking of which, I really hope they make the greenhouse and overall profile closer to the street version of the car. Engines are another thing I see being supplied at the manufacturer level, as it already is for TRD and Ford, rather than built by the teams. Like the bodies, I see each OEM having a separate configuration, based more closely off the street vehicle, which NASCAR will again have to police balance of performance on. Chevy can retain their pushrod engine based on the LS, likely with a displacement advantage to compensate. Ford will want OHC's allowed so they can use the Coyote as their starting point. And Toyota might try for something smaller with forced induction, but I'm not that familiar with Toyota's sports cars. In all three cases displacement and power will be far lower than the 5.8 L monsters we have now.

 

[gnomesayin]

In all three cases displacement and power will be far lower than the 5.8 L monsters we have now.

Obviously, as now that they're choking 40% of the life out of them at most tracks in the name of entertainment, it's just silly not to build engines to the desired power levels.

A couple questions for you, as you've made several interesting points. The first is that for the turbo engines to possess an advantage using the high groove at various tracks, wouldn't that require there being a large differential in off-throttle time between the low line and high line? There isn't that much difference at most of the intermediates and up with the current package.

I know that Ford has become more unified and Toyota-ish in their approach, but is it really fair to say they are providing engines ala TRD? Roush Yates works closely with Ford Performance, but my impression was that they are still more independent than Toyota's program.

Finally, I'll just stick my neck out and state that I'll be shocked if NASCAR allows each manufacturer to build such divergent engines. I'll eat crow if wrong, but I believe the engine design will remain far more similar in terms of the basic framework than is being discussed here.

It'll be very interesting to see what directions this goes in.

 

[Ford 222]

Please just don’t bring back any tuner wings. So ugly

 

[Zerkfitting]

Please just don’t bring back any tuner wings. So ugly

I kinda liked the wings, I thought they were a better aerodynamic design than a flat piece of metal working like an air brake. I'm curious how the two designs affect the following car. They say clean air is king, I would think the wing is less turbulent.

When I see wings on street cars I have to laugh because they probably won't reach a speed where they are useful.

 

[Acs]

A couple questions for you, as you've made several interesting points. The first is that for the turbo engines to possess an advantage using the high groove at various tracks, wouldn't that require there being a large differential in off-throttle time between the low line and high line? There isn't that much difference at most of the intermediates and up with the current package.

I know that Ford has become more unified and Toyota-ish in their approach, but is it really fair to say they are providing engines ala TRD? Roush Yates works closely with Ford Performance, but my impression was that they are still more independent than Toyota's program.

Well for one, I also think the Gen 7 car is going to be less aerodynamic and have less downforce. Everything is based on the specific track in question though, for instance nobody is going to run the wall at Loudon because the turn radius isn't actually that much greater. But for most other tracks where it is, there will always be that relative difference in off-throttle time between the two lines, even if the total off-throttle time is reduced thanks to aero. Even with the current package drivers are still getting runs off the top because partially lifting for a split second is still worse than keeping it wide open. Heck, just putting wheel into the car period will put load on the engine and reduce RPM's, regardless of what the driver does with the gas pedal. Even at Daytona and Dega you can see the RPM's drop noticeably through the corners even though the pedal is pinned, and those are the largest radii turns in motorsport. All of this is to say that at whatever level of cornering speed NASCAR targets, a laggy, turbocharged, unresponsive engine is only going to magnify the difference between the two lines.

As far as Ford engines go, Roush has an exclusive deal with Ford performance to supply engines for every series Ford competes in North America, including NASCAR, IMSA, the WEC. So their relationship goes far deeper than just being the only ford engine supplier left in NASCAR. Even if they wanted to, nobody else can make a NASCAR engine with the blue oval on it. This is a good thing, IMO, because it's pretty much made all Ford teams big and small universally competitive at tracks where HP matters the most (IE plate tracks). Is it identical to what TRD does with Gibbs? I have no idea. But the engine program, combined with the new Ford Performance center I think has really raised the competitiveness of all Ford teams across the board. Chevy needs to keep up.

 

[StandOnIt]

IRS will be a game changer. Camber will be no problem as it is with a solid rear end on ovals. Wheel hop on road courses will pretty much disappear. And that brings on a whole different set of design parameters. It is a huge undertaking making the changes they are talking about doing. I can see why they are waiting another year to do engine changes.

 

[Team Penske]

Probably be a good idea for some who love that sound to start recording the crank it up segments. As long as we are taking a WAG (wild ass guess) at what the future is going to be, The Ford guru has stated that he is excited because the cars are going to be closer to what a consumer can buy off of the show room floor. He also said he liked the changes that are happening underneath the car. Not much to read between the lines there if that continues to be true. I think the big three already in the series don't have much of a problem, they all have bodies and engines to use. Of course they will be in name only, nobody could possibly buy one from the show room floor. Anybody else that wanted in it would take a little to a lot depending on the brand. Dodge for instance. They almost have to compete if it is that easy. I think that is the goal for all involved

The big 3 produced some very bad ass cars back in the early 90's and if you had the coin,
you could drive them on the street. Today there are cars in show rooms around the world that make the best "Nascar" car look like something made in a back yard garage.
I am all in favor of Nascar moving forward so that the car on the track with an extra $50,00 could be bought in a showroom "Special addition" cars should be available even though I could never own one.

 

[gnomesayin]

IRS will be a game changer. Camber will be no problem as it is with a solid rear end on ovals. Wheel hop on road courses will pretty much disappear. And that brings on a whole different set of design parameters. It is a huge undertaking making the changes they are talking about doing. I can see why they are waiting another year to do engine changes.

This and the rumors about possibly dropping a couple hundred pounds make me excited for the future of NASCAR road racing.

 

[StandOnIt]

This and the rumors about maybe possibly dropping a couple hundred pounds make me excited for the future of NASCAR road racing.

it could open it up for road race wringers to come race. That's always interesting, but the gap keeps getting wider for that to happen, they have a huge disadvantage trying to drive a truck arm Nascar barge. I hope they keep the 4 or five speed stick shift. Probably fighting a losing battle there, the manufacturers probably want the paddle shifters.

 

[Ford 222]

I kinda liked the wings, I thought they were a better aerodynamic design than a flat piece of metal working like an air brake. I'm curious how the two designs affect the following car. They say clean air is king, I would think the wing is less turbulent.

When I see wings on street cars I have to laugh because they probably won't reach a speed where they are useful.

Lol, very true. I’m sure they like the look, just like I like a hint of a spoiler on a car.

I think they got away from the wings because it was sending cars flying when they got turned around at high speeds. The roof flaps couldn’t compensate?

 

[StandOnIt]

The big 3 produced some very bad ass cars back in the early 90's and if you had the coin,
you could drive them on the street. Today there are cars in show rooms around the world that make the best "Nascar" car look like something made in a back yard garage.
I am all in favor of Nascar moving forward so that the car on the track with an extra $50,00 could be bought in a showroom "Special addition" cars should be available even though I could never own one.

I had a friend that had a limited edition Olds aero coupe in the 90's, had the long back window. badges, stripes and all. Came with a 305 smog motor. Pretty car but what a dog. The 80's were painful.

 

[Switchback]

I had a friend that had a limited edition Olds aero coupe in the 90's, had the long back window. badges, stripes and all. Came with a 305 smog motor. Pretty car but what a dog. The 80's were painful.

I know someone who still has his monte ss aero coupe. I thought the Mammoth back window was pretty ugly and yes, those motors were pooches.

 

[LewTheShoe]

Finally, I'll just stick my neck out and state that I'll be shocked if NASCAR allows each manufacturer to build such divergent engines. I'll eat crow if wrong, but I believe the engine design will remain far more similar in terms of the basic framework than is being discussed here.

You won't have to eat crow, I predict. V-8 engines, DOHC, 4.0 or 4.5 liters, and maybe a compressor or maybe not. And there will be a sizable increase in miles between rebuilds... three or four races... maybe more.

I'll eat crow if it's paddle shifters...

Return of the low downforce school of racing, with the added benefit of low side force... no dorsal fins, symmetrical left and right sides. The spin: we did what we had to do until we got this new car ready, but now we are ready!! (Dear God, please, please make this happen. Amen.)

Composite bodies, same basic shape for all brands, OEM-styled front ends, rear ends, and side styling cues. Parity demands this IMO.

IRS with zero rear steer geometry.

More control parts with specified part numbers, but I'm less sure the basic tube chassis will be a specified control part.

 

[gnomesayin]

Return of the low downforce school of racing, with the added benefit of low side force... no dorsal fins, symmetrical left and right sides. The spin: we did what we had to do until we got this new car ready, but now we are ready!! (Dear God, please, please make this happen. Amen.)

I think you're daydreaming, but I want to believe! Anything is possible, including abrupt reversals.

 

[LewTheShoe]

I think you're daydreaming, but I want to believe! Anything is possible, including abrupt reversals.

It's not daydreaming. It's a prayer. It's a leap of faith. It's like you're in Las Vegas playing blackjack, and the mortgage money is in the pot, and you've got sixteen and you say, "Hit me." LOL.

 

[Dr_B_UNC]

I think @Acs is on the right path here. To entice the OEMs and grow the sport, they need a reason to be there. Meaning make the cars more like their real cars (even if in body alone) like the Cup cars of the 80s. Make it more like F1 and sports car racing where the OEMs actually supply the parts and the teams tweak them. Make the greenhouses and body profiles match the street car. This may be heresy, but why not monocoque chassis/****pits? What about flat floor pans to negate some of that manipulation? LOSE THE SPLITTER. I also like the ideas of IRS mentioned above, as well as letting each OEM come up with its own engine. NASCAR went modern with EFI and a digital dash, why not go all in and allow paddle shifters? And if the move to reducing number of men over the wall was a true attempt at cost saving, why not join the rest of the racing world (well except F1) and go with hydraulic jacks and eliminate the jack man? I realize that I will now be labeled a heretic, but the product has to evolve to modern standards at some point or it truly is dead. "But muh V8 durka durka!" is no longer a valid excuse.

 

[StandOnIt]

I'm not a big fan of the OEM's turning the series into a F-1 spend a thon. Penske and Ganassi have said publicly, not behind closed doors their concerns about the cost of racing. So IMO Nascar is at a turning point. I think the car and how they spec it out cost wise will be the tell tale on how it is going to go. I think independent subs should be used for certain parts. It's worked in IndyCar.

 

[Ventisca]

If we're going to go down this Penske/Chip road then

First, NASCAR as Leader of the pack needs to answer the questions -- What is the "appropriate" resource/budget to go racing in Cup? How will it be audited and enforced? How much is too much? Should multi-car organizations have the same per car resource/budget (for the entirety of that race organizations) as single-car teams?

Perhaps NASCAR should approach the Team model the same way they approach pit crews -- you only get so many _________ to perform the task. Same with resources (eg. buying or fabricating parts, equipment). Operate all Teams on the same model. No loaded engineering staffs, builders, etc.; and place heavy sanctions on "black budgets" to produce special parts (like the Childers' Blade). Limit virtual modeling and testing as well as wind tunnel access to identical standards for all teams. All accounting out in the open. Otherwise, it's just the big boys convincing others to spend less, while they're still out-resourcing (OSS machines, wind tunnels, computer modeling, simulators, etc) the competition to enhance/refine or outright cheat their way to victory.

They took the specialized pit guns from the teams -- and went to a common standard. They pared down the over-the-wall crew. They know how to do this and have weathered the controversies of doing so.
https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/20389/nascar-mandates-nitrogen-powered-pit-guns

Or just keep it the way it is and stop talking/complaining about cost to run Cup as an issue. NASCAR deals with all of this and their attempt at "entertainment" seems focused on making rules to at least get the field stacked closer together by way of Rules Package -- even though the outcome still favors top organizations.

I'll be watching either way...

 

[StandOnIt]

I was talking about the car development costs and what Penske and Chip said publicly about the Gen 7 car. I fear letting the OEM's have too much control upsets the balance. At the start of Nascar Bill Sr. tried to keep them out, but it was impossible. So compromises have been made..I think they still should be. It's a tough thing to do, but lately the trend has been going in the F-1 direction under Brian France. So like I said it will be interesting to see how it goes. Jim France is very aware of costs/racing and has kept IMSA healthy, competitive and fairly affordable in that series.

 

[Zerkfitting]

I think they got away from the wings because it was sending cars flying when they got turned around at high speeds. The roof flaps couldn’t compensate?

If the leading edge was anchored and the trailing edge loose it could flip up like the roof flaps (Michael Waltrip suggested that years ago) but they might cause instability if they were loose and flapping in the turbulence, a better way could be developed.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

it could open it up for road race wringers to come race. That's always interesting, but the gap keeps getting wider for that to happen, they have a huge disadvantage trying to drive a truck arm Nascar barge. I hope they keep the 4 or five speed stick shift. Probably fighting a losing battle there, the manufacturers probably want the paddle shifters.

I must admit I have almost no concern with the mechanism used to shift.

 

[Team Penske]

I must admit I have almost no concern with the mechanism used to shift.

But it is fun to watch a driver break the shift lever off and try to fix it while driving.

 

[StandOnIt]

 

[machinistman3]

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/nascar-will-test-future-gen-7-car-tech-at-all-star-race

Read the comment section below the article. This is what the casual NASCAR fan thinks these days. The people in charge need to wake up and listen!

 

[FLRacingFan]

Teams want help from NASCAR to pay for new cars
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com...eagues-and-Governing-Bodies/NASCAR-fleet.aspx

NASCAR teams are asking the sanctioning body to help foot the bill for the major expense of building a new fleet of race cars, sources say, an unusual move that signals teams still believe the sport’s revenue distribution is out of balance.

In conjunction with NASCAR, teams plan to introduce a new car — dubbed the Generation 7 model — in 2021. Transitioning to the new car is expected to cost teams tens of millions of dollars in total, and they’re asking NASCAR and tracks to help defray that expense, according to sources.

While the request is not a direct ultimatum for NASCAR to give teams a greater slice of the sport’s media rights revenue, it reveals that teams still feel strongly that their business model needs to be altered for them to survive and succeed. Teams receive less than half of what tracks get in media rights revenue, and that has long been a source of discontent.

NASCAR’s media rights deals with Fox Sports and NBC Sports earn the sport a combined $820 million annually through 2024, with 65 percent of that revenue going to tracks, 25 percent to teams and 10 percent to NASCAR. It’s not clear how much the teams are asking the league and tracks to contribute to the changeover costs.

NASCAR and team executives declined to comment, citing the sensitivity of the topic. But sources confirmed that the ask has been made and that talks are ongoing. NASCAR has neither immediately embraced the idea nor outright rejected it so far, according to one source with direct knowledge of the matter.

NASCAR periodically changes its car models to keep up with technology and styling preferences by the sport’s manufacturers. The planned transition was announced earlier this year, but details have been scant, in large part because teams, manufacturers and NASCAR are still negotiating over the exact specs. However, the cars are expected to look more like the manufacturers’ street vehicles and built to be more conducive to creating exciting racing.

While long term the new models are designed to save teams money, it’s the initial investment to build the new fleet that has teams looking for help. Teams will have to spend heavily on research and development, and their current cars would become obsolete, and thus of little to no value.

NASCAR and its teams discussed the situation at their quarterly Team Owner Council meeting earlier this month. It’s not yet clear when the sides might announce more details for their plans with the new model.