Discussion in 'NASCAR chat' started by StandOnIt, Feb 19, 2019.
Hmmm. Pontiac maybe?
This clock started ticking the day the RTA was established, IMO. I believe the teams have been getting shafted by NASCAR and the track operators for a long time, and fundamental revision of how the money gets split is way overdue. Compared to every other segment of the industry, team ownership is high risk and low reward at best.
I realize some people think the RTA is the invention of the Devil, but I haven't seen any persuasive rationale to support this knee-jerk reaction.
Here’s what the Dodge Charger and Challenger looked like in 1983.
We’ve come a long way.
I agree. The teams still fund the vast majority of their operations through sponsorships, and tracks continue to invest in upgrades and renovations costing well into the millions as ISC and SMI continue to report healthy income. The turnover in inventory seems like it's going to be substantial and without some help financially I'm sure some of the teams, especially lower down the grid, won't make it through the transition. If NASCAR really does end up with every track under one roof at some point then there's only more reason for it to happen.
I believe you are talking about the Pontiac Grand Prix 2+2, which was Pontiac's answer to the 1986
Monte Carlo SS Aerocoupe . There were a couple teams that had some success with it, notably Blue Max with Rusty Wallace, (Rusty got his first few Cup wins in one) but man, that car car was PAINFULLY ugly. It ran in NASCAR from the start of the 1986 season through 1987. The cars did not sell well and were completely ignored by car collectors until recently, where their sheer rarity began moving prices a little, but they have about 1/50th the interest that the Monte Carlo SS's have.
Actually the SS Aerocoupe and the 2+2 Aerocoupe were GM's answer to the aerodynamically superior Ford Thunderbird. And thus began the Aero Wars.
Sidenote: Oldsmobile teams used a sloping rear window Delta 88 coupe in many races in that era.
eh, it was one of the chapters at any rate.
Josh Hamilton on reddit tonight...
A rather interesting, I guess, take on shifting towards high downforce for Gen 7. Anyone see the engineering races disappear yet this season?
On OEMs and HP:
Funny how they suddenly care about the engines being relevant to their real life counterparts. When the sport was booming, the engine in Dale Earnhardt's Lumina was a far cry from the 130 horsepower 3.1L V6 in the street car.
Are they going to start using engines that are more manufacturer specific, like IMSA?
Haha. Some of these comments are cringeworthy at this point. If the goal is to eliminate or de-emphasize engineering, you essentially need to go spec with the chassis and bodies. Which is kinda the direction they are heading in. But none of that applies to 2018 or 2019, with the cars still being built independently within tolerances. Adding a ton of downforce to the formula doesn't equalize anything on the engineering front.
Not even sure what else to say to this nonsense anymore. It's embarrassing.
Times change, and situations change. Sometimes overwhelming success can be somewhat of a hidden curse, because it cause you or allows you to ignore things that you SHOULD have been paying attention to. Twenty years ago, NASCAR was in a position to dictate the terms. Now, not so much. The manufacturers are demanding race cars that have more relevance to what they are selling as a condition to being involved, and NASCAR is in little position to argue. This is a discussion that should have been taking place more than twenty years ago, so that we didn't get where we are now, but back then, NOBODY wanted to hear it. As I said repeatedly, Robert Yates, one of the "kings" of horsepower, was advocating smaller, less powerful engines at least as far back as the mid-90's but nobody was listening. Back in the early 70's when car owners often drove their own cars, and you could run a successful team out of a an old two bay gas station, Big Bill France was able to tell the manufacturers "don't let the door hit you on the way out". Today, the landscape is totally different, and the manufacturers have made demands, for better worse.
To answer the question, yes, I think NASCAR will move to something similar to the IMSA engine model, and I for one think that makes perfect sense and is a move probably10-15 years overdue. Grand Am put on terrific prototype races with very tightly regulated production based V8 engines going back 2003, so the road map has been out there for a LONG time.
it been a pretty simple formula so far. Make the cars have less downforce, and the big teams spend millions trying to gain pounds more. The way it is now in some cases they are trying to loose some or figure out how to balance it. Passing has been overall better this year with good numbers in the pack and for the leaders. I have a pretty good idea in the future 21 car they will go with the balance of performance formulas for the individual cars and probably have as many standardized parts as possible to help with the costs. IRS is almost a given and they will have a HP mark that the OEMS can achieve easily. I do wonder if it will become a clonish GT sports car IMSA like series.
Right. It’s why I laugh at so many people mad
about this package. While that spoiler could probably be a tad smaller, last year was very obvious with how much better the top 5 were over the rest of the sport. And even then Penske didn’t get going until the 2nd half of the season
This article is from a couple weeks back and features quotes from Ford Performance global director Mark Rushbrook regarding Ford's desires for the Gen 7 car. Heavy on street relevance, he mentions rack and pinion steering, IRS, closer body resemblance, and the dreaded H word (!). Not for 2021 or 2022, but this implies that Ford wants a move to hybrid engines down the line. Honestly that seems like a no-brainer from their perspective, as their entire fleet will be that before Gen 7 has run its course.
We get a bit of a glimpse of the Gen 7 car at the All Star Race coming up. Nothing from the article above are earth shaking IMO. Rack n pinion steering, independent rear suspension. Probably the biggest change is to try to make the cars more life like, but the Camaro and the Mustang aren't really that far off.
The All-Star Race will introduce Gen 7 parts such as a single-piece carbon fibre splitter at the front for stability, and radiator parts that exit through the bonnet instead of the engine, improving engine cooling.
Lol can’t we say hood instead of bonnet
Look at possible vents used for 2019 ASR to be testing for Gen 7 model
Ironically, David Wilson asked the question, "Why can't we have the number of manufacturers in NASCAR as we do GTD class in IMSA?"
That question is utter nonsense. One is a third rate participation series; the other is a top level destination series. Pyramids are always wider at the base than at the peak. And what it takes to compete at the base of the pyramid bears no resemblance to what's required at the peak. David Wilson knows this. He's talking trash.
So you're saying we can't have four or five manufacturers in Cup?
You may get 4 or 5 but they won't last because they want to be winners and wins are just to hard to come by. Lots of makes in the old days but those were drivers cars not manufacturers.
at the 1:39:00 mark of the clip. Mike Helton gets pretty specific about the Gen 7 car design and also explains why this years package is what it is.
2 hrs and 15 min. is more than I can take.
New hood vents and splitter seemed to get good reviews from the All-Star Race. Helton's comments on the HP levels make sense too. But I didn't hear him comment specifically on the downforce/drag. Is there a reason why that (big spoilers) would be attractive to an OEM or is that just in the interest of competition and close racing?
I heard him talk about the rear of the car being the place to work on as well, which I've thought for a while should be the case - for both road relevance (Mustang is sorely lacking compared to the road car back there) and competition (sideforce). I think it's good they're aiming to fix that too. Just not sure why we need big spoilers.
I heard Helton say the car will be new from the ground up, and it sounds like they are tailoring the platform with manufactured parts to keep the costs in line. 550 HP looks like what they are shooting for. I heard an Xfinity owner say big changes are coming to Xfinity and the Trucks also. Hopefully those two will become easier for single car teams to be competitive.
I like the direction they seem to be going in. If anything maybe another 100 HP which I think was the norm in the early 90's. I would like to see them make just enough changes that it would be possible for a new owner to start up Truck and Xfinity teams. Sponsors I suppose is the real question. They can cheapen up the cost of cars all they can but it would still take sponsors to make it happen.
Well, personally, this may not be popular, but I could see the Gen 7 engine being a 650 HP twin turbo or Supercharged V8
I don't much care what's under the hood as long as it responds promptly when the driver mashes the pedal.
The costs thing is something the teams brought on themselves, and resisted efforts last decade to cut costs.
The teams should get more of the TV money, but they shouldn't get money from NASCAR for the new cars. I just hope NASCAR makes it to where smaller teams can function. But, the RTA is every bit as lethal to startup teams as the costs are.
550 HP is just what they call a nominal figure. I guarantee if they dynoed anybodies motor in the top 5 it isn't 550 HP. I don't understand what the phobia is myself. They will probably measure the field, dock performance for some and add to other cars, doing the balance of performance thing. Like Helton said, he would like 1000 hp, but it's too expensive to do. Modern carmakers have mass produced engines that produce 550 Hp so it would be much easier and cheaper for anybody who wants to join the fray.
Following up on this...there are a bunch of different stories to unpack from this piece, but as far as NASCAR goes this is the significant bit - hybrids are now in play for the beginning of the Gen-7 car?
Mike Helton on Jr's show said designs are being made for possible hybrid use possibly in the future
Check out the responses on this thing. Best not go full electric anytime soon or ever.
Hybrids, not full electric, is under consideration. Here's the good news on hybrids...
The bad news on hybrids is, how are they gonna recharge the battery? I mean, usually the recharge comes from recovering kinetic energy from braking, right? But Nascar has almost done away with braking at most venues due to low power, high aero drag, and high aero downforce.
Maybe that leads to "more good news" on hybrids... a perfect rationale for returning to a rules formula with more power, less drag, and less downforce. I really *want* to believe that is where Nascar is going with Gen 7.
Yeah, that was a crack at all the responses that were worried it would affect sound, just the notion of a hybrid met a good wall of resistance. I am open to the hybrid, but also in the same camp that doesn't want it to affect the V8 sound throughout the race too much.
My understanding, is that it won't alter the sound of the internal combustion engine, it's only when the electric engine is activated will it go quiet. I don't know about the possibility of a dual system where both can be active at the same time, one cuts off the other cuts on? Correct? My question is when in the race are they wanting to use the electric? Or is it just a pr ploy by the manufacturers to try to sell more hybrid vehicles?
I'd be okay with them switching over to electric when they're going around under yellow (I think), since they cut on and off to save fuel as is. I wouldn't want them to be under electric coming down pit road or anything like that though. I just hope the powers at be understand the importance of the sounds.
That certainly is a hurdle for them if they can't get enough recharge from the kinetic on braking for the batteries at certain tracks. I imagine all of this opens up a new set of failures to worry about with the electrical system as well. Would take some time to iron out the kinks, like everything else.
They will just record the regular engines and then have the tape play while under electric power
and add speakers turning the cars into boom boxes.
They won't be running V8's anyways so it won't matter. This is the stuff DW was eluding too when he said he doesn't like the direction things are headed I'm sure. I can tell you I won't watch if they go full electric. Even with hybrids I'm very on the fence.
They're taking away every single thing that made cup cars unique. Powerful machines? Pffft.
In 10 years I better see Honda, Mazda, Nissan, etc. in this sport or else all this talk was just a bunch of bull****.
Back when F1 were running V8 hybrids with a KERS no one complained about the sound. In fact, those very cars are some of the ones fans remember most fondly when comparing to the current V6 turbo hybrid cars. Toyota's TS040, also with a V8, sounded pretty damn good too.
If they cut the downforce enough to get them to brake everywhere outside of Daytona and Talladega they could use a KERS. I don't see them running huge HP levels again but maybe they can get to something where they get 550-600 HP from the ICE and then 50-100 HP from the KERS.
Or if they opt not to go with a KERS, try to recover heat from the exhaust? That seems like the harder option at the time though.
It's a racing series -- are they trying to save gas?
So use enormous resources to develop, engineer, field, refine a new engine -- presumably to save fuel during a race?
If they want to save fuel then don't sell tickets, just have TV and online audience. Cut the season and schedule races for bare minimum travel by NASCAR haulers and Motorhome parades.
Logistics -- the fans, teams, vendors, broadcasters, etc -- is what matters for energy conservation if that's your thing...
I remain the only fan who doesn’t care how the cars sound. With my scanner headphones on, they all sound like MRN.
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