A call to arms for NASCAR

FWIW, I have very little problem with any of the races I've watched this year. What I don't care for is announcers trying to be rock stars and the force feeding of whichever couple of drivers the networks choose to toss on a plate.

There's plenty of good , young drivers and a few wily veterans who seldom get seen or talked about. Instead, we're given constant updates and banter about some driver 24 laps down and barely making minimum speed. Well, they're not the only drivers who have fans watching races.

The other thing that irks me is Nascar's inconsistancy in dealing with rule infractions and muffling of drivers speaking their minds. What France is scared of I have no idea but he sure doesn't want those drivers stepping out of line to have an opinion that doesn't agree with his own. Inferiority complex, maybe?
 
#17D500winner said:
The other thing that irks me is Nascar's inconsistancy in dealing with rule infractions and muffling of drivers speaking their minds. What France is scared of I have no idea but he sure doesn't want those drivers stepping out of line to have an opinion that doesn't agree with his own. Inferiority complex, maybe?
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I understand why you would think that way about Nascar , because that is what you are forcefed on this and other forums . The truth of the matter is that Nascar has done little to enforce 'actions detrimental to the sport ' ,since 'boys have at it ' .When Newman said in a fit of anger that Nascar wanted someone else to win , or some silly thing , he deserved to be taken down because it was untrue and detrimental to the sport. As for inconsistancies crap , when you have Carl Long getting virtually the same penalty as your five time champion , you gotta be kiddin me . When you have popular drivers being put to the back of the field for speeding on pit road , no way Nascar can be accused of inconsistancy . In short , you cannot prove or disprove an old wives tale like that but I doubt that you would find a single driver or car owner that would back you up , in public or in private.
 
robbybee said:
I'm not so sure that it was the fans who were/are responsible for The Chase.
But whether you like it or not, the fact is that no driver outside the Top 10 in points, with 10 races to go, will EVER win the Championship. So, it's just no big deal - to me, anyway...
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Not pickin on ya Robbie but I really can't think of a time when anyone outside the top ten in points with ten races to go has Won a Championship? All the Chase does is put the Focus on the teams in contention for the Championship, good or bad.
 
ted@economy said:
Brad made it very clear that he didn't want to be turned into the wall by Tony for something that was unintentional. The fact that he was that afraid of retaliation , should prove to you that 'old school racing ' is alive and well out there.
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Exactly my point..NOONE wants to make waves.....lets just ride along and keep everyone happy
 
FlFlash said:
All the Chase does is put the Focus on the teams in contention for the Championship, good or bad.
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That's an interesting take on the chase flflash.

The present Chase format...

1) Resets points, which sometimes moves the regular season champ to a lower position.
2) Moves marginal teams closer to the dominant teams for the final 10 races.
3) Often turns the regular season into a boring 26 week test session.
4) Marginalizes the importance of running well over the full 36 race season.
5) Makes most drivers race safer, because 1 DNF kills your chance at a championship because there are just 9 races to make up for it.

The wildcard did moderate some of these issues, but regular season performance seems to still be less important than preparing for the Chase. It sure was fun watching Tony go all out, but it wasn't so much the chase format that dictated that strategy. It was the #14 team being so far behind and knowing they had to bet it all on every race, and it started with 2 risky fuel mileage wins.
 
We all have the option of not watching or attending what we don't like. And NASCAR doesn't owe any of us a damn thing. What we get from them in the form of (mostly free) entertainment far outweighs what we individually give them. I know many of us arm chair experts think we know how to fix what we perceive to be broken, but we don't have a clue as to what it takes to manage something as huge as NASCAR. At what point do we stop focusing on the few things that we don't like and focus on what we do? I'm not saying that anyone is out of line or that we shouldn't permit ourselves to grumble but I think we tend to lose sight of (and take for granted) the awesomeness and stability that NASCAR provides.

And there are things we can do to change things.

I wanted to have a chance to voice my opinions to NASCAR so I joined the Fan Council.

I wanted to more closely follow my driver throughout the race so I subscribed to Trackpass via NASCAR.com

I hate commercial interruption so I signed up for DIRECTV (and NASCAR In-Car before that) to get Hotpass.

We have options and things we can do to improve our NASCAR experience. It's just a matter of whether or not we take advantage of them.
 
FlFlash said:
Not pickin on ya Robbie but I really can't think of a time when anyone outside the top ten in points with ten races to go has Won a Championship? All the Chase does is put the Focus on the teams in contention for the Championship, good or bad.
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Flash, sorry if you mis-understood but that's what I meant. Not just in the era of the chase.
 
Okay FB you are in the running for Winning the Taking Qoutes out of Context Award!!! Congrats

My complete original post :
FlFlash said:
Not pickin on ya Robbie but I really can't think of a time when anyone outside the top ten in points with ten races to go has Won a Championship? All the Chase does is put the Focus on the teams in contention for the Championship, good or bad.
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And the discussion that it was relevant too:

ted@economy said: ↑
“I agree with you Andy . The fans wanted this stupid chase to make the racing better . It hasn't done that , at all . It just eliminates 31 teams from the competition.​
Robbie said: I'm not so sure that it was the fans who were/are responsible for The Chase.
But whether you like it or not, the fact is that no driver outside the Top 10 in points, with 10 races to go, will EVER win the Championship. So, it's just no big deal - to me, anyway...

Trying to pick apart my post and argue with me about things I was'nt discussing isn't going to work, you'll have to find entertainment elsewhere.
 
FenderBumper said:
That's an interesting take on the chase flflash.

The present Chase format...

1) Resets points, which sometimes moves the regular season champ to a lower position.
2) Moves marginal teams closer to the dominant teams for the final 10 races.
3) Often turns the regular season into a boring 26 week test session.
4) Marginalizes the importance of running well over the full 36 race season.
5) Makes most drivers race safer, because 1 DNF kills your chance at a championship because there are just 9 races to make up for it.

The wildcard did moderate some of these issues, but regular season performance seems to still be less important than preparing for the Chase. It sure was fun watching Tony go all out, but it wasn't so much the chase format that dictated that strategy. It was the #14 team being so far behind and knowing they had to bet it all on every race, and it started with 2 risky fuel mileage wins.
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robbybee said:
Flash, sorry if you mis-understood but that's what I meant. Not just in the era of the chase.
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I figured thats what you meant I was just clarifying. I have no problem with The Chase Everyone knows how it works at the start of the season and they know where they need to be at race 26. Since The Chase's inception I have yet to see a team in the Top Ten that did not have a season worthy of making it there.
However I'm an old fashioned guy and would rather see Racers race for The Win each week instead of worry over points and championships. I'm more impressed with a 5 Time Southern 500 Winner than a 5 time points champion ;)
 
FenderBumper said:
That's an interesting take on the chase flflash.

The present Chase format...

1) Resets points, which sometimes moves the regular season champ to a lower position.
2) Moves marginal teams closer to the dominant teams for the final 10 races.
3) Often turns the regular season into a boring 26 week test session. (Disagree)
4) Marginalizes the importance of running well over the full 36 race season. (Disagree)
5) Makes most drivers race safer, because 1 DNF kills your chance at a championship because there are just 9 races to make up for it. (Disagree)

The wildcard did moderate some of these issues, but regular season performance seems to still be less important than preparing for the Chase. It sure was fun watching Tony go all out, but it wasn't so much the chase format that dictated that strategy.(Disagree) It was the #14 team being so far behind and knowing they had to bet it all on every race, and it started with 2 risky fuel mileage wins.
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Carl Edwards: "No matter what points system they come up with, I can't think of one where everyone is going to go, 'Hell, let's just wreck!'"
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
Carl Edwards: "No matter what points system they come up with, I can't think of one where everyone is going to go, 'Hell, let's just wreck!'"
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It's a little annoying when people use the extreme as an example. Carl of all people should understand the difference between racing safe and putting it all on the line and taking chances.
 
buckaroo said:
One thing is for sure, as someone said, you ain't never going to get everyone to agree with anything. I read recently that a judge threw out a suit filed by retired NFL players, saying the NFLPA wasn't a union during the lock out and couldn't talk for the retirees. At the end of the story, the writer said something to the effect, NASCAR and the France family might have something right. One way or another, it's the only game in town at present and trying to get another stock car series up and running is all but impossible. Not even ARCA can compete with NASCAR on a national level. And of course the reason is coverage and sponsorship. Many here have only known the Cup series as being something that could be seen on TV each and every race. But it wasn't always that way. ESPN is responsible for the rise of NASCAR as we know it today because they are the ones who began to televise more and more races live. That is the most important thing, being televised nationally. Without that, NASCAR would be much like it was in the 70's, and for many older fans, much better. I can't say the France family is doing the best job, but I can say that if we put together a committee of just the members of this board to run the series, it wouldn't go anywhere. There is such a divide in the fan base as to what and where to take the series and how to get it done. While Brian France is the head of NASCAR, to think that he doesn't have the sport in it's best interest is just ludicrous. There are probably any number of advisors that he has to listen to as well as sponsors, owners and of course drivers, not to mention the fans.

I'm a huge NASCAR fan and watch all the races I can, but more and more of them have become races that I can't watch live because they have moved them to Saturday night and that is when the majority of the local tracks hold their races. I've told time and time again my problem with NASCAR so I don't need to rehash it now. But I do wish that we had the ability to see some of the best racing that isn't in the front, or cars that involve "special" people. When I'm at the track, I'm very seldom watching the leaders unless it's obvious that there is some great competition going on there.
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There you go...you have stated the main reason why Nascar is not exciting as it once was.."I'm very seldom watching the leaders unless it's obvious that there is some great competition going on there." The close racing at the front doesn't happen nearly as much as it once did, that is the main reason why Cup racing isn't as exciting any more, and it is the design of the car with excessive aero push that is at fault.
 
Mopardh9 said:
The close racing at the front doesn't happen nearly as much as it once did, that is the main reason why Cup racing isn't as exciting any more...
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I find this statement to be funny as hell. I don't have any idea what era you are referring to or which race that you are talking about , but if you want to pick a year or a race , we could take a look and see if what you believe is actually true .
 
OK so lets recap

The main requests in this thread.

No Aero Push,
Side by Side Racing,
Softer Tires,
Better finishes,


Yall are describing a short track series. Unless France family can pay to change the laws of physics the only place they are going to get all of this is to have an all short track series. Where 43rd starts the race a turn away from being a lap down. I'd watch it and be thrilled for it but it aint gonna happen cause in the eyes of NASCAR thats not where the "big boys" race...but whatever.
 
ted@economy said:
I find this statement to be funny as hell. I don't have any idea what era you are referring to or which race that you are talking about , but if you want to pick a year or a race , we could take a look and see if what you believe is actually true .
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How many close finishes have we had in 2011 and 2012, ones that weren't brought on by a late race yellow? I'm talking racing for the win, it is clearly evident that the racing isn't that exciting, if it was fans wouldn't be leaving the sport, ratings would be sky rocketing, and you wouldn't have people in this forum complaining about it.
 
ted@economy said:
I find this statement to be funny as hell. I don't have any idea what era you are referring to or which race that you are talking about , but if you want to pick a year or a race , we could take a look and see if what you believe is actually true .
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And the main reason it doesn't happen is once a car closes in on a car in front of them the aero issue rears its' ugly head. Sure back in the days of old you had guys lapping the field, but you also had cars that were able to pass each other a hell of a lot better than todays' spec car.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I think it was Oct 1994 at North Wilkesboro. Geoffrey Bodine won.

Link
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I remember that race well. Great race, and Bodine had a rocket. He started mid pack, and without the benefit of any caution flags, got the lead, lost time in the pits, and got it back. There was no beating him that day. At that point, NASCAR hadn't yet developed a propensity to use the caution flag to it's advantage. I remember someone cutting a tire and absolutely clobbering the wall early on, and they didn't wave the yellow.

I think sometimes people make the mistake, almost at NASCAR's insistence, of judging the quality of a race by the number of cars on the lead lap. Sometimes you can make a case that way, but often times, you can't.
 
Jameswnh said:
I think sometimes people make the mistake, almost at NASCAR's insistence, of judging the quality of a race by the number of cars on the lead lap. Sometimes you can make a case that way, but often times, you can't.
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Well said. "There's more cars on the lead lap. Why do you need to see a couple of cars racing for the win?'.

Some people drink the nascar cool-aid by the gallon.
 
I think for the aero push for the time being, make them run the air damn open and they've changed the side skirts already. The other, you guessed it....TIRES!!!
 
Thegroundpounder99 said:
I think for the aero push for the time being, make them run the air damn open and they've changed the side skirts already. The other, you guessed it....TIRES!!!
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Rip off the splitter, go to a roof spoiler and take out the rear window. That'll end aero push and make the cars look more stock.
 
Jameswnh said:
I think sometimes people make the mistake, almost at NASCAR's insistence, of judging the quality of a race by the number of cars on the lead lap. Sometimes you can make a case that way, but often times, you can't.
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A short track race with only four cars on the lead lap will be better than a 1.5 mile race with 30 cars on the lead lap anyday.
 
Jameswnh said:
I think sometimes people make the mistake of judging the quality of a race by the number of cars on the lead lap.
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What's even more infuriating to me, is a fan who will say that a sh!tty race was AWESOME!!! cause their favorite driver ended up in victory lane. Or on the opposite end of the scale, call an instant classic a waste of time because of their personal dislike for the winner.

Happens all the time...
 
basscatcher89 said:
OK so lets recap

The main requests in this thread.

No Aero Push,
Side by Side Racing,
Softer Tires,
Better finishes,


Yall are describing a short track series. Unless France family can pay to change the laws of physics the only place they are going to get all of this is to have an all short track series. Where 43rd starts the race a turn away from being a lap down. I'd watch it and be thrilled for it but it aint gonna happen cause in the eyes of NASCAR thats not where the "big boys" race...but whatever.
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Or we're describing a series that races at short tracks, not enormous stadiums that are designed to provide a corporate sponsor friendly and media friendly environment.
 
robbybee said:
What's even more infuriating to me, is a fan who will say that a sh!tty race was AWESOME!!! cause their favorite driver ended up in victory lane. Or on the opposite end of the scale, call an instant classic a waste of time because of their personal dislike for the winner.

Happens all the time...
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The Jimmie Johnson equation. Great race + win by dominate driver for 5 years - win by (insert favorite driver) = hissy fit.

Including the podium narrow-minded BS, the rate the race thread can be the most biased, lop-sided, temper tantrum on this forum. Even though it is fun to read sometimes :oops:
 
Mopardh9 said:
How many close finishes have we had in 2011 and 2012, ones that weren't brought on by a late race yellow? I'm talking racing for the win, it is clearly evident that the racing isn't that exciting, if it was fans wouldn't be leaving the sport, ratings would be sky rocketing, and you wouldn't have people in this forum complaining about it.
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So you're talking about two or three cars crossing the finish line in a photofinish . Not gonna happen . Once every five years ,maybe . You can go back in history , and that is not the mainstay of this sport . Side by side passing for position occurs all through the field , through the entire race and ,at the end , the best car will be out in front. Maybe by half a lap , who knows . That is why we watch , to see what is going to happen. You can't manufacture photo finishes , never could . As to people complaining on this forum , please . And as to people leaving this sport and ratings not skyrocketing , the sport is quite healthy compared to others and most of us are quite happy with it .
 
Mopardh9 said:
And the main reason it doesn't happen is once a car closes in on a car in front of them the aero issue rears its' ugly head. Sure back in the days of old you had guys lapping the field, but you also had cars that were able to pass each other a hell of a lot better than todays' spec car.
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If you are not seeing passing , you are not watching . In almost every race , the winner comes from somewhere near the back of the field , either from a bad qualifing position , pit stops or penalties . He is able to make his way up through the field , why can't others ? Listen to the race broadcast , when they say "Where did he come from?" and answer the question.
 
ted@economy said:
If you are not seeing passing , you are not watching . In almost every race , the winner comes from somewhere near the back of the field , either from a bad qualifing position , pit stops or penalties . He is able to make his way up through the field , why can't others ? Listen to the race broadcast , when they say "Where did he come from?" and answer the question.
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It's not really that there is no passing, it's just that it isn't shown so much unless it is at the lead of the pack. For those of you that attend any of these Cup events you certainly know what I am talking about. The race that you see at the track is far different than what is presented on television. The guy in the production truck doesn't look at the battle for 9th to be all that much of a story if it were lap after lap of Ambrose vs. Almirola but if you put Harvick vs. Busch in that same situation, you'll see it. It's selective.

As far as the winners coming from the back, 6.4 is the average starting position of race winners this season. Looking at the loop data the average running position of the race winners in 2012, outside of the two restrictor plate tracks, is under 10. These guys aren't coming from as far back as you might think. The cream always rises to the top but it's also running up top too.
 
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