A call to arms for NASCAR

Smoke14 said:
Do you honestly believe that NASCAR and the France family are trying to destroy the sport so they will have to find other jobs?

Wake up Andy.
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The levels of critical thinking:
Stage One: The Unreflective Thinker
Stage Two: The Challenged Thinker Stage Three: The Beginning Thinker Stage Four: The Practicing Thinker Stage Five: The Advanced Thinker Stage Six: The Accomplished Thinker
http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/critical-thinking-development-a-stage-theory/483

Andy has consistently shown that he is perpetually stuck on level one. And I'm dead serious. Check out the link.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
It's not really that there is no passing, it's just that it isn't shown so much unless it is at the lead of the pack. For those of you that attend any of these Cup events you certainly know what I am talking about. The race that you see at the track is far different than what is presented on television. The guy in the production truck doesn't look at the battle for 9th to be all that much of a story if it were lap after lap of Ambrose vs. Almirola but if you put Harvick vs. Busch in that same situation, you'll see it. It's selective.

As far as the winners coming from the back, 6.4 is the average starting position of race winners this season. Looking at the loop data the average running position of the race winners in 2012, outside of the two restrictor plate tracks, is under 10. These guys aren't coming from as far back as you might think. The cream always rises to the top but it's also running up top too.
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Starting position is only one of three factors that I mentioned . Last week Jimmy Johnson's gas can left the pits , he was penalized and started at the back ,he drove up through the field , to what ? Third ? . That happens every week . Monday , I will give you 10 drivers who went from the back to the front .Either through penalty , qualifying position or bad pit stop , none of them will be effected by aero push . Or , if they are , noone will notice . They will simply drive from the back of the field to the front of the field . It won't be shown on tv , but once in a while a stupid announcer will say "Where did he come from ?"..answer , " From the back stupid."
 
Matthew2470 said:
The levels of critical thinking:
Stage One: The Unreflective Thinker
Stage Two: The Challenged Thinker Stage Three: The Beginning Thinker Stage Four: The Practicing Thinker Stage Five: The Advanced Thinker Stage Six: The Accomplished Thinker
http://www.criticalthinking.org/pages/critical-thinking-development-a-stage-theory/483

Andy has consistently shown that he is perpetually stuck on level one. And I'm dead serious. Check out the link.
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'

Keep chugging the Fool Aid, homie.

Brian France is a moron. Under Brian, the sport has made one bad decision after another. Removing IRP was a bad idea, but all Brian saw was money. Removing the Southern 500 was a bad idea, but all Brian saw was money (how's that second California race working out?). The made-for-TV Chase is a bad idea that makes 26 races irrelevant... I mean, drivers are even content with finishing second in the Daytona 500 if it helps them make the Chase instead of going for the win.

The only reason I don't say anything about the CoT is because it's a necessary evil that NASCAR, hopefully, will improve on.
 
robbybee said:
What's even more infuriating to me, is a fan who will say that a sh!tty race was AWESOME!!! cause their favorite driver ended up in victory lane. Or on the opposite end of the scale, call an instant classic a waste of time because of their personal dislike for the winner.

Happens all the time...
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My least favorite driver won the Indy 500 and I thought it was the best 500 I've ever seen but I do see your point. I think it's awesome when Mark Martin, Kevin Harvick or Brad Keselowski win.

Though, let's be honest, four of Harvick's wins came on last lap passes (three photofinishes) and so many others came with late race passes inside 5 or 10 to go, hence his nickname "The Closer".
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
'
Brian France is a moron. Under Brian, the sport has made one bad decision after another.
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So... You believe that Brian France is trying to destroy the very sport that HIS family founded and has made a living from for over half a century.

I think I just figured out who got into the Kool-Aid. ;)
 
OK, finally chiming in. Good thread, for the most part, with smatterings of NASCAR hatred thrown in for good measure (ahem..Andy)

One thing that I still believe, and have mentioned it before, is that America's love affair with the automobile has been over, and that is most definitely an added cause in the sport's downturn over the years. There used to be a buzz about new models coming out, and it used to be about winning on Sunday and selling on Monday. But now, even all the street cars look alike, and that hasn't helped.

Over-saturation, as mentioned, also hurts. Used to be a time when there was an excitement and anticipation for the race. Now, it's like "eh, I can watch another race any old time." Not sure who said there there should be even more races, and that if you didn't watch them all then don't, but that's the predicament that they're in now. There's so many races that more and more people are taking that approach, and the numbers are dropping everywhere as a result. Even I do that. If I'm gonna be out, I don't really care if I missed it r not anymore. And I love this sport.
 
Smoke14 said:
So... You believe that Brian France is trying to destroy the very sport that HIS family founded and has made a living from for over half a century.

I think I just figured out who got into the Kool-Aid. ;)
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Quit being a fool, you tried this last time and as I said, I believe Brian France is stupid enough to believe his ideas are working.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Quit being a fool, you tried this last time and as I said, I believe Brian France is stupid enough to believe his ideas are working.
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Brian France is no moron. He has key people in place that assists him in guiding where the sport is going. I would be willing to bet a months wages that every decision that is made gets carefully pondered before being implemented. I can also assure you that Brian would love to have every race sold out and fierce competiton for season tickets such as Bristol used to enjoy.

Get rid of your filters and let your mind grow.
 
ted@economy said:
Starting position is only one of three factors that I mentioned . Last week Jimmy Johnson's gas can left the pits , he was penalized and started at the back ,he drove up through the field , to what ? Third ? . That happens every week . Monday , I will give you 10 drivers who went from the back to the front .Either through penalty , qualifying position or bad pit stop , none of them will be effected by aero push . Or , if they are , noone will notice . They will simply drive from the back of the field to the front of the field . It won't be shown on tv , but once in a while a stupid announcer will say "Where did he come from ?"..answer , " From the back stupid."
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The gas can penalty put him to 13th,1 lap down and he finished 11th, 1 lap down. He didn't drive up through anything after that.

IMO, the #48 and #17 were the 2 best cars on the track but didn't get the caution they needed to overcome pit road mistakes. Such is life.
 
#17D500winner said:
The gas can penalty put him to the 13th,1 lap down and he finished 11th, 1 lap down. He didn't drive up through anything after that.

IMO, the #48 and #17 were the 2 best cars on the track but didn't get the caution they needed to overcome pit road mistakes. Such is life.
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Third may have been wishful thinking , I had him in the pool and got burned again . My point is that aero is being given far too much attention . The good cars will get to the front and the bad cars will get to the back . It's a level playing field .
 
Smoke14 said:
Brian France is no moron. He has key people in place that assists him in guiding where the sport is going. I would be willing to bet a months wages that every decision that is made gets carefully pondered before being implemenred. I can also assure you that Brian would love to have every race sold out and fierce competiton for season tickets such as Bristol used to enjoy.

Get rid of your filters and let your mind grow.
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Exactly. Andy does not demonstrate the ability to think critically which is why no one here seems to respect his opinions. And I'm not sorry for being brutally honest regarding what Andy posts here.
 
ted@economy said:
Third may have been wishful thinking , I had him in the pool and got burned again . My point is that aero is being given far too much attention . The good cars will get to the front and the bad cars will get to the back . It's a level playing field .
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So you made up a story to prove everyone wrong? :rolleyes:
 
Smoke14 said:
Brian France is no moron. He has key people in place that assists him in guiding where the sport is going. I would be willing to bet a months wages that every decision that is made gets carefully pondered before being implemenred. I can also assure you that Brian would love to have every race sold out and fierce competiton for season tickets such as Bristol used to enjoy.

Get rid of your filters and let your mind grow.
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How did Southern California work out? Oh, right, they're now trying the event in Atlanta now. The Labor Day Weekend race would be relevant if it was still held in Darlington (though I know it's not NASCAR's doing that they'll never go back there on Labor Day but it is NASCAR's doing that they moved that race to the L.A. market), now it's just another regular season race which will be overshadowed by the IndyCar race in Baltimore, again.

How's the Chase working out? If you deny that a large number of fans don't like it, then you are the one with filters. When asked about it, Brian France said he's never heard anyone say they don't like the Chase. REALLY?!

Everything's about money and, when it takes away from the overall product, a new gimmick is formed. The All Star Race is no longer a relevant idea -- it used to mean something to the drivers but now it's nothing more than a test session for the 600. $1 million? Please, the elite drivers make that each week with endorsements, sponsorship deals and etc.

The first gimmick was Green/White/Checkered finishes. Then it was the Chase. Then it was Double File Restarts "Shootout Style". Now, the gimmick is reconfiguring tracks with progressive banking (which, so far, has only improved the racing at one track).

Aside from Steve O'Donnell (NASCAR VP) whom I like, Brian France has surrounded himself with a bunch of yes-men who won't criticize his decisions. The NASCAR media (aside from the likes of Monte Dutton and Bob Diller) is surrounded with people who only know NASCAR racing and have likely never even seen the inside of a 3/8 mile bullring.

If you're fine with all that, alright, whatever floats your boat. Then again, I'm sure I'd probably enjoy the sport and their gimmicks more if my driver had won the championship solely because of a welfare, made-for-TV "playoff" points system gimmick.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
How did Southern California work out? Oh, right, they're now trying the event in Atlanta now. The Labor Day Weekend race would be relevant if it was still held in Darlington (though I know it's not NASCAR's doing that they'll never go back there on Labor Day but it is NASCAR's doing that they moved that race to the L.A. market), now it's just another regular season race which will be overshadowed by the IndyCar race in Baltimore, again.

How's the Chase working out? If you deny that a large number of fans don't like it, then you are the one with filters. When asked about it, Brian France said he's never heard anyone say they don't like the Chase. REALLY?!

Everything's about money and, when it takes away from the overall product, a new gimmick is formed. The All Star Race is no longer a relevant idea -- it used to mean something to the drivers but now it's nothing more than a test session for the 600. $1 million? Please, the elite drivers make that each week with endorsements, sponsorship deals and etc.

The first gimmick was Green/White/Checkered finishes. Then it was the Chase. Then it was Double File Restarts "Shootout Style". Now, the gimmick is reconfiguring tracks with progressive banking (which, so far, has only improved the racing at one track).

Aside from Steve O'Donnell (NASCAR VP) whom I like, Brian France has surrounded himself with a bunch of yes-men who won't criticize his decisions. The NASCAR media (aside from the likes of Monte Dutton and Bob Diller) is surrounded with people who only know NASCAR racing and have likely never even seen the inside of a 3/8 mile bullring.

If you're fine with all that, alright, whatever floats your boat. Then again, I'm sure I'd probably enjoy the sport and their gimmicks more if my driver had won the championship solely because of a welfare, made-for-TV "playoff" points system gimmick.
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If you use fabricated myths such as those written above when you report, I bet you are well liked by your employer, the National Enquirer.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Attacking the messenger, that's what people who can't debate do. :)
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Nope, calling it as he sees it. It's how you come across. Why do you thing you've been banned from a certain race track? There's truth, and then there's what you write when you're in attack mode. If you could write from a neutral position on something, you'd probably get more slack, but when your are 100% negative, attacked you will get.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Attacking the messenger, that's what people who can't debate do. :)
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You really are clueless when it comes to analyzing anything other than what you perceive to be on the surface. No one can debate anything with you because you don't have the ability to see things from any other perspective than what your own anger dictates.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Attacking the messenger, that's what people who can't debate do. :)
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I find myself agreeing with some of what you say from time to time, Andy. When you are level-headed and thoughtful you can make some very good and valid points. But when you go off your meds you are just effen scary, dude...
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The first gimmick was Green/White/Checkered finishes. Then it was the Chase. Then it was Double File Restarts "Shootout Style". Now, the gimmick is reconfiguring tracks with progressive banking (which, so far, has only improved the racing at one track).
.
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I kinda like this statement , but I don't get wether you are for or against these changes . They were obviously nothing to do with money ,except that they were done to create more fan intrest , so I don't even see how the statement relates to your post.
 
VaDirt said:
Nope, calling it as he sees it. It's how you come across. Why do you thing you've been banned from a certain race track? There's truth, and then there's what you write when you're in attack mode. If you could write from a neutral position on something, you'd probably get more slack, but when your are 100% negative, attacked you will get.
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I'm not terribly upset about being banned from that track. It's a move that hurt them more than it hurt me.

I'll respond to the rest later, I've gotta run.,
 
Miss Danica is just way to cautious as far as throwing this car in the corner and letting the banking hold her. She'lll run a few good laps then slow down. Then she catches someone from a second back but struggles to pass them because she's so afraid of wrecking. I understand that it's good to take care of your stuff but she's gonna get eaten alive unless she learns to attack this place.
 
Good thread starting to degrade into a passing contest.
 
Now she found something and gained .6 secs per lap. It's fun to watch her learn. And she just put a bumper to the 19 when he tried to chop her. Can't believe he saved it.
 
So she jumped from 22nd to 15th over the past few laps because of learning the track and not abusing her stuff.
 
Matthew2470 said:
Now she found something and gained .6 secs per lap. It's fun to watch her learn. And she just put a bumper to the 19 when he tried to chop her. Can't believe he saved it.
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I was watching he lap times too , she was turning laps equal to the leaders and managing to drop positions.She missed that wreck .
 
I don't hate Brian France. He is just like many CEOs that have quarterly profit tunnel vision.
But the mental red flags should have been in overdrive when when 1.50 miles were all Bruton Smith was building, a separate entity but Smith knew he would need NASCAR buy in for the dates, a missed opportunity.


2 mile tracks like California being built should have also had NASCAR screaming no as well, the potential for Restictor plate racing is to real. The France family has always had the power in the past, they obviously missed this inevitable result.


But the corporate culture has saturated the world, and not just racing, maybe a tsunami that was impossible to stop.
 
Matthew2470 said:
I can't wait to hear this. lol
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Here it goes.

RE:ODS, I don't feel the need to get in to everything that went down. ODS' side of the story is out there and it's fine if only one side is out in the air.

As for the rest, I'm entitled to my opinion. If you disagree with it, disagree with the opinion, don't attack the poster.
 
OK... Talk me into believing that was was Danica's fault. Dang it...
 
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