article: How NASCAR can get fans to return and retain them

Ford 222 said:
Lol at anyone thinking playoffs and stages have cost NASCAR fans. If you like racing, none of that changes anything. Except give you 3 races in one.
Really laughable is blaming the points. Yeah because that’s ALWAYS so intriguing when attending and watching the race. Especially when by race 10 there were only 5 contenders.
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Stages and playoffs are exactly the reason why I lost interest. I like racing.
Scheduled breaks in competition and a stick n ball playoff format have no place in auto racing.
Lol at anyone that thinks everyone likes stages and playoffs.
 
Ford 222 said:
I hope it never increases in attendance or interest. Keep it as is as long as teams are able to get funding to race and nascar makes enough to sustain itself. Like it sooo much better going to a race as far as parking and hotel prices. And getting seats at tracks like Bristol. Who the hell wants more of those fad Jeff G and Dale Jr fans because that’s what you would be dealing with? No offense to real JG and DJr fans.
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Hey I was one of those fans! Jeff was my guy since grammar school and then Jr was my second fav. I’d get weird looks when I’d converse with other fans who my favorite drivers were. But I’m still around still being a fan. I just don’t have as big a horse in the race anymore
 
Snappy D said:
Hey I was one of those fans! Jeff was my guy since grammar school and then Jr was my second fav. I’d get weird looks when I’d converse with other fans who my favorite drivers were. But I’m still around still being a fan. I just don’t have as big a horse in the race anymore
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You’re not one of the people I was referring to then!
 
BobbyFord said:
Stages and playoffs are exactly the reason why I lost interest. I like racing.
Scheduled breaks in competition and a stick n ball playoff format have no place in auto racing.
Lol at anyone that thinks everyone likes stages and playoffs.
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Who said everyone? But if those things ruin your experience, uh, sorry!

Can’t see how a points system could possibly change your race day experience.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Unlike that 25 year old, you and I are jaded enough to no longer be as responsive to marketing. We've responded too many times to false siren songs to sail toward them any more. Even though we have more disposable income, we're far less likely to be swayed in how we dispose of it. Better to get a dollar from a kid with $100 than nothing from geezers with $10,000.
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I hear you as from my cold dead hands shall you pluck my Bounty Paper Towels:D
 
jws926 said:
It put's NASCAR in a tough spot, they need to start getting and retaining people under 50, heck, under 30 really.
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I sometimes wonder.....does golf even care? Older fan base I would assume. Never hear **** about attendance or viewship. Just wondering....NASCAR ****s themselves because they are benchmarking the NFL. They aren't the NFL, and never will be. Maybe something like golf is the more reasonable benchmark?
 
Ford 222 said:
I hope it never increases in attendance or interest. Keep it as is as long as teams are able to get funding to race and nascar makes enough to sustain itself. Like it sooo much better going to a race as far as parking and hotel prices. And getting seats at tracks like Bristol. Who the hell wants more of those fad Jeff G and Dale Jr fans because that’s what you would be dealing with? No offense to real JG and DJr fans.
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Ford 222 said:
Lol at anyone thinking playoffs and stages have cost NASCAR fans. If you like racing, none of that changes anything. Except give you 3 races in one.
Really laughable is blaming the points. Yeah because that’s ALWAYS so intriguing when attending and watching the race. Especially when by race 10 there were only 5 contenders.
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I definitely think you will get your wish as not only do I not see Nascar races increasing in attendance but I think we will see continued decreases. I would rather have higher attendance and a healthy series than lower attendance and an unhealthy series.

I don’t know anyone personally that quit watching Nascar because of stages as the ones I know had exited long before. The things that killed it for them was the chase and the CoT and I’m sure those things were the same for others too.

To a lesser extent some people I know felt that Nascar left them in favor of chasing new fans. The plan worked for a little while but then blew up. At the time the people I know that left ranged from late 20’s to mid 40’s
 
StandOnIt said:
IMSA, ARCA, and Nascar are owned by the same family if ya didn't know. Imsa's "full field" is 37 cars. Nascar is 38. Certain tracks they go to only have space for 40. IMSA has done well, run by Jim France who BTW is running it and Nascar now for who knows how long. But comparing the two in income or popularity or car count is another story. There isn't a racing series in the country that comes close. It's handy to hammer on for some that make a habit of those sort of things.
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Yep, knew all that. Obviously any growth in a smaller series would have to be phenomenal to approach Cup's popularity. It was the demographic breakdowns of each series (along with Indy and maybe drag) that I was wondering about. I don't know if anyone here can provide those.numbers.
 
Ford 222 said:
Who said everyone? But if those things ruin your experience, uh, sorry!

Can’t see how a points system could possibly change your race day experience.
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A point system won't run my race day, but it certainly affects following the sport over the entire season. I doubt few fans are able to attend more than a handful of races a season; the most I ever made was 8, the second most was 5.
 
Revman said:
I sometimes wonder.....does golf even care? Older fan base I would assume. Never hear sh!t about attendance or viewship. Just wondering....NASCAR ****s themselves because they are benchmarking the NFL. They aren't the NFL, and never will be. Maybe something like golf is the more reasonable benchmark?
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There are a whole lot more amateurs playing golf than racing cars. Also, golf sponsors tend to be companies trying to reach upscale customers, so they know they're after a relatively small audience.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I would rather have higher attendance and a healthy series than lower attendance and an unhealthy series.
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I'd rather have lower attendance and a healthy series. I'm still in the camp that thinks the series IS healthy, just not as robust as the boom years.

I'm not a very social guy but most of the people I know that left did so because their favorite drivers left for whatever reason. I'm talking way before Tony, Jeff, and Jr. Dale, Rusty, the Labontes, Mark, Alan, Davey, even Harry; drivers who were at their peak before or just at the beginning of the boom years.
 
Revman said:
I sometimes wonder.....does golf even care? Older fan base I would assume. Never hear sh!t about attendance or viewship. Just wondering....NASCAR ****s themselves because they are benchmarking the NFL. They aren't the NFL, and never will be. Maybe something like golf is the more reasonable benchmark?[/QUOTE

It seems with golf that when you turn 50 watching golf on TV becomes the thing to do. I am only being half serious but with Nascar the audience just keeps getting older. At some point a pipeline of younger fans in measurable numbers needs to be developed
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Charlie Spencer said:
Yep, knew all that. Obviously any growth in a smaller series would have to be phenomenal to approach Cup's popularity. It was the demographic breakdowns of each series (along with Indy and maybe drag) that I was wondering about. I don't know if anyone here can provide those.numbers.
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In the last year or so I have chatted with a couple of people that believe as long as Nascar is the top motor sport all is well. IDK what the thinking is behind that logic.
 
BobbyFord said:
Stages and playoffs are exactly the reason why I lost interest. I like racing.
Scheduled breaks in competition and a stick n ball playoff format have no place in auto racing.
Lol at anyone that thinks everyone likes stages and playoffs.
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I don't like grouping stages and playoffs together. 2 different things. 1 is 15 years old.

And of course not everyone will agree on everything, but I'll defend stages and current point system here:

They've acted as checkpoints to gauge entire race performance, and reflect that in the most accurate point system NASCAR has created imo. That addition, has allowed the playoffs to be less gimmicky until Homestead. The points advantage that carries over from the regular season makes it very tough to be ousted, before that point, depending on how dominating your season performance has been. In past playoff years, the regular season carry over was not enough, now it is rewarding.

Improved other aspects, Qualifying for stage 1 checkpoint, would still like to them add more reward for Pole position in the points imo.

The days of hanging back, go to work on your car all race long, and show up at the end are gone. Unless you're foregoing stage points as part of your race strategy for the win. Of course you can opt to do that, if that's how you want to run it, or your car requires that type of transformation to have a chance. It has introduced more strategy options into the race. I personally don't mind the stage end yellows, since we're seeing plenty of green flag run in all stages, especially stage 3.

I will venture a guess that you long lost interest before the addition of stages. I don't quite share your level of distaste for the playoffs exisitng, but I would prefer if they ran this point system without a playoff. I understand why they want it (guarantee Homestead, late season drama, talking points etc), not that that's a good thing. I'm just not a believer in 1 race deciding what is supposed to be a year long achievement imo.

For race day experience enjoyment at the track, I don't see how that worsens at all with either of those. If anything, I would lean on them being more of a positive for that. As for on track racing aspect, I would say both of those force the driver's to push harder for longer and put their nose into spots where they wouldn't have otherwise, if they could sit back and point race carefully.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
A point system won't run my race day, but it certainly affects following the sport over the entire season. I doubt few fans are able to attend more than a handful of races a season; the most I ever made was 8, the second most was 5.
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I used to follow every race and was eager to see how the points looked after each race. I don’t even care enough to know how the point system works let alone pay any attention to them these days. All I know is that if David Ragan wins the 500 he is in the playoffs.
 
BobbyFord said:
Stages and playoffs are exactly the reason why I lost interest. I like racing.
Scheduled breaks in competition and a stick n ball playoff format have no place in auto racing.
Lol at anyone that thinks everyone likes stages and playoffs.
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I like stages, spent to many years watching guys like JG (later in his career) not racing in the first half. The playoffs were OK in the beginning BUT NOW? I have to agree this 1 race champion is a farce.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I'd rather have lower attendance and a healthy series. I'm still in the camp that thinks the series IS healthy, just not as robust as the boom years.

I'm not a very social guy but most of the people I know that left did so because their favorite drivers left for whatever reason. I'm talking way before Tony, Jeff, and Jr. Dale, Rusty, the Labontes, Mark, Alan, Davey, even Harry; drivers who were at their peak before or just at the beginning of the boom years.
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I think the series is still healthy at present but a lot of that has to do with the current broadcast deal. If a similar broadcast deal is in the future all will be well for many years if not there will be pain.

Even though I think Nascar is still healthy there have been several troubling signs. From good teams closing down, being unable to find a title sponsor, teams having difficulty gaining and retaining sponsors, TV viewership plummeting to unforeseen lows etc.
 
Turtle84 said:
I don't like grouping stages and playoffs together. 2 different things. 1 is 15 years old.

And of course not everyone will agree on everything, but I'll defend stages and current point system here:

They've acted as checkpoints to gauge entire race performance, and reflect that in the most accurate point system NASCAR has created imo. That addition, has allowed the playoffs to be less gimmicky until Homestead. The points advantage that carries over from the regular season makes it very tough to be ousted, before that point, depending on how dominating your season performance has been. In past playoff years, the regular season carry over was not enough, now it is rewarding.

Improved other aspects, Qualifying for stage 1 checkpoint, would still like to them add more reward for Pole position in the points imo.

The days of hanging back, go to work on your car all race long, and show up at the end are gone. Unless you're foregoing stage points as part of your race strategy for the win. Of course you can opt to do that, if that's how you want to run it, or your car requires that type of transformation to have a chance. It has introduced more strategy options into the race. I personally don't mind the stage end yellows, since we're seeing plenty of green flag run in all stages, especially stage 3.

I will venture a guess that you long lost interest before the addition of stages. I don't quite share your level of distaste for the playoffs exisitng, but I would prefer if they ran this point system without a playoff. I understand why they want it (guarantee Homestead, late season drama, talking points etc), not that that's a good thing. I'm just not a believer in 1 race deciding what is supposed to be a year long achievement imo.

For race day experience enjoyment at the track, I don't see how that worsens at all with either of those. If anything, I would lean on them being more of a positive for that. As for on track racing aspect, I would say both of those force the driver's to push harder for longer and put their nose into spots where they wouldn't have otherwise, if they could sit back and point race carefully.
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I completely agree with your narrative. I think a lot of people quit Nascar because they found something else that does not demand so much time. If I could schedule a good fishing trip for every Sunday, I would be watching tape delayed races.:D
 
Turtle84 said:
I don't like grouping stages and playoffs together. 2 different things. 1 is 15 years old.

And of course not everyone will agree on everything, but I'll defend stages and current point system here:

They've acted as checkpoints to gauge entire race performance, and reflect that in the most accurate point system NASCAR has created imo. That addition, has allowed the playoffs to be less gimmicky until Homestead. The points advantage that carries over from the regular season makes it very tough to be ousted, before that point, depending on how dominating your season performance has been. In past playoff years, the regular season carry over was not enough, now it is rewarding.

Improved other aspects, Qualifying for stage 1 checkpoint, would still like to them add more reward for Pole position in the points imo.

The days of hanging back, go to work on your car all race long, and show up at the end are gone. Unless you're foregoing stage points as part of your race strategy for the win. Of course you can opt to do that, if that's how you want to run it, or your car requires that type of transformation to have a chance. It has introduced more strategy options into the race. I personally don't mind the stage end yellows, since we're seeing plenty of green flag run in all stages, especially stage 3.

I will venture a guess that you long lost interest before the addition of stages. I don't quite share your level of distaste for the playoffs exisitng, but I would prefer if they ran this point system without a playoff. I understand why they want it (guarantee Homestead, late season drama, talking points etc), not that that's a good thing. I'm just not a believer in 1 race deciding what is supposed to be a year long achievement imo.

For race day experience enjoyment at the track, I don't see how that worsens at all with either of those. If anything, I would lean on them being more of a positive for that. As for on track racing aspect, I would say both of those force the driver's to push harder for longer and put their nose into spots where they wouldn't have otherwise, if they could sit back and point race carefully.
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The tailgating is now the star of the weekend.
 
Team Penske said:
I completely agree with your narrative. I think a lot of people quit Nascar because they found something else that does not demand so much time. If I could schedule a good fishing trip for every Sunday, I would be watching tape delayed races.:D
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The people that I know that bailed didn’t like the changes and found other things they liked doing more. They have moved on for good unfortunately
 
Revman said:
I sometimes wonder.....does golf even care? Older fan base I would assume. Never hear sh!t about attendance or viewship. Just wondering....NASCAR ****s themselves because they are benchmarking the NFL. They aren't the NFL, and never will be. Maybe something like golf is the more reasonable benchmark?
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You know, good point, and that is not a bad benchmark to go after .
 
IanMcVittie said:
I like tailgating as much as anyone but I sure as heck am not going to drive 6-700 miles to a race to enjoy it.
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I don't get going someplace just to tailgate. Me, I'd rather have access to my own toilet and paper supply, know that the chicken salad was in the fridge until 5 minutes ago, and no hassles with traffic or police checkpoints.

But they're out there. My sister has Houston Texans season tickets. She said for the first few seasons, people without tickets would pay to park in the lots just to tailgate. The lots got so crowded that eventually they started checking for tickets at the gates; no tickets, no entrance to the lot.
 
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jws926 said:
You know, good point, and that is not a bad benchmark to go after .
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In some ways, that might be a more difficult benchmark. In terms of TV coverage, not even the Super Bowl swings the weight of the Masters. Augusta National tells CBS how few commercials they can run, and the network just rolls over and shows its belly.

I've often thought PGA golf has a lot in common with NASCAR. A different venue every week, sponsored events, participants are independent of the sanctioning body, participants are responsible for their own expenses, everybody plays everybody else most weeks, relatively new and questionable playoff systems, etc.
 
Here is another indicator of who is who with the mostly younger crowd and Nascar fans in general. (personalities) in the survey at the front.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I would rather have higher attendance and a healthy series than lower attendance and an unhealthy series.
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LOL. Off-season comedy? Your daily repetition of deathbed talking points says otherwise.
IanMcVittie said:
I used to follow every race and was eager to see how the points looked after each race. I don’t even care enough to know how the point system works let alone pay any attention to them these days. All I know is that if David Ragan wins the 500 he is in the playoffs.
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James Hylton started 602 cup races. He won two of them, and finished on the lead lap a total of seven times in his career. Seven lead lap results out of 602 races. As for your beloved points system, Hylton finished in the top four in season points eight times, including three times at second place in points.

There are many other examples of mediocre drivers/teams coasting to top points placings under the old system... because it severely under-rewarded wins and artificially propped up the mid-field journeymen. I agree with @Turtle84... the points system and championship format are convenient targets but are red herrings that have little to do with the decline of Nascar.
 
The fans want more variety in the tracks, and closer racing. Nascar under Brian lied, craw fished, alibied, expressed his love for short tracks but didn't do a damn thing until somebody with a brain Tony Stewart laid out the golden Egg for Eldora. Young Smith had to invest their hard earned money and 2 years of lobbying the hell out of the old regime to bring the fans the Roval at Charlotte. I don't know who's idea it was to do the All Star experiment, but I bet it didn't come from Brian France, and where did it happen? On a Smith track. And who is busting ass to bring us a short track at Nashville? The Smiths. Tell ya what, Mr "everything is on the table" Phelps better live up to his word. As long as there are a million reasons floating around about Nascar's loss of enthusiasm by some. I think the bag of lies that Brian was and is had to contribute some to it.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I don't get going someplace just to tailgate. Me, I'd rather have access to my own toilet and paper supply, know that the chicken salad was in the fridge until 5 minutes ago, and no hassles with traffic or police checkpoints.

But they're out there. My sister has Houston Texans season tickets. She said for the first few seasons, people without tickets would pay to park in the lots just to tailgate. The lots got so crowded that eventually they started checking for tickets at the gates; no tickets, no entrance to the lot.
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A buddy of mine has several sets of Colts season tix and a retired school bus that he has converted. The guy is a culinary genius and has the gift of hospitality. Tailgating with him is a dream.

Other than that I’m with you.
 
LewTheShoe said:
LOL. Off-season comedy? Your daily repetition of deathbed talking points says otherwise.

James Hylton started 602 cup races. He won two of them, and finished on the lead lap a total of seven times in his career. Seven lead lap results out of 602 races. As for your beloved points system, Hylton finished in the top four in season points eight times, including three times at second place in points.

There are many other examples of mediocre drivers/teams coasting to top points placings under the old system... because it severely under-rewarded wins and artificially propped up the mid-field journeymen. I agree with @Turtle84... the points system and championship format are convenient targets but are red herrings that have little to do with the decline of Nascar.
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Hiya, Lew, IDK all the reasons why Nascar is tanking but I do know that a bunch of my race buddies bailed due to the chase and CoT. I have never put those forth as reasons why Nascar is losing fans at an alarming rate but perhaps others have,

I’m really glad to know how much you like the current point system and I am confident you will also enjoy the 2019 rules. I suspect there will be some spiffy and spicy races!
 
StandOnIt said:
The fans want more variety in the tracks, and closer racing. Nascar under Brian lied, craw fished, alibied, expressed his love for short tracks but didn't do a damn thing until somebody with a brain Tony Stewart laid out the golden Egg for Eldora. Young Smith had to invest their hard earned money and 2 years of lobbying the hell out of the old regime to bring the fans the Roval at Charlotte. I don't know who's idea it was to do the All Star experiment, but I bet it didn't come from Brian France, and where did it happen? On a Smith track. And who is busting ass to bring us a short traNashville? The Smiths. Tell ya what, Mr "everything is on the table" Phelps better live up to his word. As long as there are a million reasons floating around about Nascar's loss of enthusiasm by some. I think the bag of lies that Brian was and is had to contribute some to it.
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I hope more track owners have the appetite to reconfigure as I really enjoyed the Roval. It would be a tough decision for owners given the money involved and NASCAR’s current state.
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't know who's idea it was to do the All Star experiment, but I bet it didn't come from Brian France...
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Actually, Brian France was the steadfast proponent of that combination of high drag, high downforce, and low horsepower. Throughout the brief (and successful... IMO) era of low downforce, BZF was the one calling for more pack racing, more lead changes, and cup rules that emulated truck rules.

I say this just in the interest of historical accuracy. Those who like the new rules don't have to give credit to Brian France. But if I dislike the rules as much as I expect I will, you can be sure I'll be blaming Nascar's Chief Addict for prematurely ending the great racing we have had for the last several years..:oops:
 
LewTheShoe said:
Actually, Brian France was the steadfast proponent of that combination of high drag, high downforce, and low horsepower. Throughout the brief (and successful... IMO) era of low downforce, BZF was the one calling for more pack racing, more lead changes, and cup rules that emulated truck rules.

I say this just in the interest of historical accuracy. Those who like the new rules don't have to give credit to Brian France. But if I dislike the rules as much as I expect I will, you can be sure I'll be blaming Nascar's Chief Addict for prematurely ending the great racing we have had for the last several years..:oops:
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I doubt if Brian knew what high drag, whatever was. I know he liked closer racing if you +could believe a thing he said, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that is what most fans want..as it is number two in this survey, and that also is a close cousin to #1 which is track variety and that includes more short tracks and road courses where those proponents aren't a factor and passing is possible.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I want you do whatever works best for you. If you don’t find it credible that I had friends who stopped watching Nascar due to the Chase and CoT I am fine with it.
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I stopped watching religiously in 2008 because of the COT. I'd say i watched 8-10 races from 2009-2013. Kyle Larson brought me back and a great 2014 season of racing hooked me again. This year may be enough to drive me away again with the new rules, but that remains to be seen. I find it absolutely believable that many of the fans no longer here left because of the COT, as it was soon after its introduction that we began to see empty seats at tracks.
 
Larsonfan1995 said:
I stopped watching religiously in 2008 because of the COT. I'd say i watched 8-10 races from 2009-2013. Kyle Larson brought me back and a great 2014 season of racing hooked me again. This year may be enough to drive me away again with the new rules, but that remains to be seen. I find it absolutely believable that many of the fans no longer here left because of the COT, as it was soon after its introduction that we began to see empty seats at tracks.
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That coincides with the death of Sr. also
 
Larsonfan1995 said:
I stopped watching religiously in 2008 because of the COT. I'd say i watched 8-10 races from 2009-2013. Kyle Larson brought me back and a great 2014 season of racing hooked me again. This year may be enough to drive me away again with the new rules, but that remains to be seen. I find it absolutely believable that many of the fans no longer here left because of the COT, as it was soon after its introduction that we began to see empty seats at tracks.
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I’m skeptical about the 2019 rules and I’m afraid they will just make more people leave and not add new fans.
 
StandOnIt said:
That coincides with the death of Sr. also
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The CoT was introduced because of Dale but its introduction came 7-8 years after he died. Nascar was at its zenith after Dale passed and was for a few years after.

The chase really offended a lot of longtime fans and the CoT finished a bunch more off. Things got so bad they had to use hair spray on some of the tracks.
 
IanMcVittie said:
The CoT was introduced because of Dale but its introduction came 7-8 years after he died. Nascar was at its zenith after Dale passed and was for a few years after.

The chase really offended a lot of longtime fans and the CoT finished a bunch more off. Things got so bad they had to use hair spray on some of the tracks.
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thinking that many fans didn't leave the sport after Sr. passed is nonsense.
 
Revman said:
I sometimes wonder.....does golf even care? Older fan base I would assume. Never hear sh!t about attendance or viewship. Just wondering....NASCAR ****s themselves because they are benchmarking the NFL. They aren't the NFL, and never will be. Maybe something like golf is the more reasonable benchmark?
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I've been doing research on Golf for my Masters thesis. I'm also an avid Golfer.

Golf saw a big decline from 2004 to about 2015, then the number of golfers taking up the sport began to match the number of golfers quitting due to old age or a lack of time. The main reason is that millennial have much lower incomes (on average) and much higher debt compared to their parent so they just can't afford to play. They also have a lot less free time than their parents did.
 
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