As of Nov17 Patrick meets with CGR

Kevin echoes what I've been say
dpkimmel2001 said:
HARVICK SAYS DANICA STARTED STOCK CAR CAREER AT A DISADVANTAGE


"You know, this is a conversation that I had with her," Harvick said. "I had 20 years on her when she started in a stock car. That is experience, and the things that come with that, you are never going to make up that ground. As long as I'm still racing, I'm going to be 20 years ahead regardless. I think it never is going to be easy to go from (IndyCars to NASCAR) if you are going to be at the top level of that sport for a long time because the cars are...

"I have never driven an IndyCar, but based on everything I've heard, the characteristics and how you drive them are 180-degrees different. It has been very hard for a lot of the open-wheel guys to come over here and drive these (3,300-pound) cars. It's the total opposite of everything they have been taught their whole lives.

In Harvick's opinion, the career path a driver chooses at an early age is a good predictor of performance in the respective disciplines.

"A lot of the kids we have coming up through our ranks now have been in stock cars since they were 12 or 13 years old," said the 2014 series champion. "It's much different. I think you have to pick a path. If you want to race open-wheel cars and do those things, it's probably going to be carts and into an open wheel series.

"There are very few people that have been able to do them both. Tony Stewart and (Juan Pablo) Montoya have done it the best in my opinion. Might be somebody else I am missing. But there have been a lot that have tried."

http://www.espn.com/jayski/cup/2018/story/_/id/22192362/tuesday-media-tour-notebook
Click to expand...

Kevin echoes what I've been saying all along. I doubt 98% of the Indycar garage would do any better than Danica has done under the same circumstances. Even Montoya was not particularly great in a stock car.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
A lot of people in here taking things extremely literal.

I agree regarding the false narrative about Danica having a major impact on the fan base of the sport. She didn't increase viewership for anything more then a couple races. Are there new fans that are Danica fans? Yes. Were they new to auto racing? Maybe. Did these people, males and females, boys and girls wake up one day and decide because Danica was now in NASCAR that they were going to be NASCAR fans? Highly unlikely. I would be willing to bet that 99% of Danica's fans were either fans of her in Indy Car (Mr. Excitement), were looking for a new driver to affiliate with (Again Mr.Excitement) or were introduced to the sport by their Mother or Father and latched on to Danica. Primarily for the little girls, they see a woman driver. Not just a woman driver, the only woman driver. Immediately it becomes relatable to them and she becomes their favorite. So did she create new fans? I would say at the very least it is debatable because a lot of her fan base were introduced by someone else. They didn't tune in just because Danica was this big media firestorm. At least not for any extended time frame.

She was good for the sport for a small period of time when she first came in. People were interested in if she could do it. Then she didn't and it was over before it even really got going. Now here we are in the same place we were when she started. The media was mostly NASCAR media, she didn't reach out to a base that was not already somehow affiliated with NASCAR and I would be willing to bet that less then 10% of her fan base are here once she is gone and that is fine, but I think her long term effect on the sport is irrelevant.

For the record, she is not in a good ride. That narrative needs to stop too. She will be a middle of the pack driver as she is in most every race she was in and I will predict she is out by mid point of the race.

From someone else's mess of course.
Click to expand...
Of course you didn't cover those already in the fan base that were about to leave but stayed because of her. You also didn't cover the number of new fans that are now wearing pink socks.
In other words your making assumptions using your own bias and any real facts to prove your point.
 
Formerjackman said:
Kevin echoes what I've been say


Kevin echoes what I've been saying all along. I doubt 98% of the Indycar garage would do any better than Danica has done under the same circumstances. Even Montoya was not particularly great in a stock car.
Click to expand...

There is truth to what Harvick is saying, but he is forgetting a few and painting with a broad brush. Harvick is correct that the older a driver switches disciplines, the more difficult it is to learn. Montoya transitioned at a later age than Danica, and FWIW stating the obvious, did so much, much more successfully.

http://racing-reference.info/driver/Juan_Pablo_Montoya

http://racing-reference.info/driver/Danica_Patrick

A.J. Allmendinger (335 starts, 1 win, 10 top 5s, 52 top 10s) has had more success. He was also a more accomplished Champ Car / IndyCar driver, so this isn't a great surprise. But he wasn't in Montoya's league, which few are, and he better proves that it can practically be done.

Robby Gordon (396 starts, 3 wins, 16 top 5s, 39 top 10s), far more successful, and he was a guy who hardly dominated the CART series when he was there.

We've done this before, not too long ago. I believe it may be accurate to state that roughly 50% of the IndyCar garage wouldn't do better in NASCAR. 98% is wishful thinking.

Tim Richmond, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Kasey Kahne and others I'm probably missing developed almost entirely in sprint cars and midgets before landing a major NASCAR ride. They didn't need to be in stock cars since age 12 to do it. Though obviously it is optimal. If Danica had been, she would have fared better.
 
gnomesayin said:
... Tim Richmond, Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Kasey Kahne and others I'm probably missing developed almost entirely in sprint cars and midgets before landing a major NASCAR ride. They didn't need to be in stock cars since age 12 to do it. Though obviously it is optimal. If Danica had been, she would have fared better.
Click to expand...
Tony Stewart was hardly a spring chicken when he climbed into a taxi cab. He'll be the standard to measure against for a successful transition.
 
Team Penske said:
Of course you didn't cover those already in the fan base that were about to leave but stayed because of her. You also didn't cover the number of new fans that are now wearing pink socks.
In other words your making assumptions using your own bias and any real facts to prove your point.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what this entire thread has turned into? A lot of pontification? There are no stats regarding this. She sells a lot of merch. That isn't an indicator of how many new fans she has created. I think I covered the new fans wearing pink socks pretty well. You guys act like drivers are what bring fans into motorsports. How many people do you know saw a race car driver in a magazine or on TV and said to themselves, "Now I gotta watch that!"? Stop it please. 99.9% or NASCAR fans were previously fans of the sport of auto racing in some fashion. They were introduced to the sport by someone else and then found a driver they either liked or could relate to. Driver's don't make fans, they keep them. That is why KyBu is so good for the sport and why it is funny that he doesn't get the marketing of the younger generation of drivers. You promote drivers to help keep the fan base and hope your product will do the same. Fans are more inclined to invest their time and money if they have a vested interest in a particular driver.

I would beg to differ regarding the amount of fans you think Danica kept around. Especially after the shine wore off and she was just another irrelevant driver in the twenties and before you think it is because of my bias I would argue that it doesn't matter who you are, when you do not perform people stop caring. Very few are able to weather the storm after you no longer are productive. For instance Bobby Labonte is a Champion and a pretty good driver and when he was running consistently in the 20's nobody said ****. For what it is worth Bobby was my favorite driver, but when it was over it was over and people stopped caring.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Isn't that what this entire thread has turned into? A lot of pontification? There are no stats regarding this. She sells a lot of merch. That isn't an indicator of how many new fans she has created. I think I covered the new fans wearing pink socks pretty well. You guys act like drivers are what bring fans into motorsports. How many people do you know saw a race car driver in a magazine or on TV and said to themselves, "Now I gotta watch that!"? Stop it please. 99.9% or NASCAR fans were previously fans of the sport of auto racing in some fashion. They were introduced to the sport by someone else and then found a driver they either liked or could relate to. Driver's don't make fans, they keep them. That is why KyBu is so good for the sport and why it is funny that he doesn't get the marketing of the younger generation of drivers. You promote drivers to help keep the fan base and hope your product will do the same. Fans are more inclined to invest their time and money if they have a vested interest in a particular driver.

I would beg to differ regarding the amount of fans you think Danica kept around. Especially after the shine wore off and she was just another irrelevant driver in the twenties and before you think it is because of my bias I would argue that it doesn't matter who you are, when you do not perform people stop caring. Very few are able to weather the storm after you no longer are productive. For instance Bobby Labonte is a Champion and a pretty good driver and when he was running consistently in the 20's nobody said sh!t. For what it is worth Bobby was my favorite driver, but when it was over it was over and people stopped caring.
Click to expand...
I think it is more than likely they changed the driver they were cheering to win and focused there. Lots of drivers have lost their shine however many of us secretly hope they will have a good run.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
You could make that case for most drivers and most sports. Almost all of us were introduced by someone else - relative, friend, etc.
Click to expand...

That is my entire point. Very few people are attracted to a sport at a regular watcher level because of a single person. Currently, Steph Curry may be the most attractive athlete because he is genuinely likeable in a sport that is booming with popularity amongst the youth. Even in that, most of the people that were attracted to Basketball because of him I bet are not every night watchers of the game.
 
aunty dive said:
The woman went from 730,000 Twitter followers to 1.8 million during her time in NASCAR. Not a single new fan among them. I guess they’re all there because yoga pants.
Click to expand...

You realize that people follow everyone on Twitter right? For instance there are a ton of people I follow on Twitter that are athletes, journalists etc. Not one of them made me a fan of the sport they play or write for.

I follow literally every driver on Twitter just because. I'm not a fan of the sport because of them. I bet you that an incredible amount of the increase came from the NASCAR community flicking follow on her twitter handle.
 
My entire stance on her is that the hype train has left and it was never what anyone ever thought it would end up being. She is a Polarizing enigma and a novelty act in the sport. Her impact has been grossly overstated and if you think for one minute that the "Danica Double" is going to spike the ratings or bring more fans to the sport, good luck. People no longer care because the shine is gone and has been gone for a long, long, time. There will always be people that want to see her do well and that is fine. In fact. if she would have won something, anything at any point it would have been huge for the sport, but it never happened. Did she bring in new fans? YES! Is that the answer you are looking for? I would not nor have I ever stated that she did not bring in new fans. The number however, is grossly overstated or at least grossly over perceived by people. On top of that the number of them that she brought in that stayed involved with the sport post bubble burst is most likely even lower.

I would have liked to see her do something, but she didn't and then the amount of noise from the media and the constant big deal that is made of someone who was a middling performer on the track became too much for some people. Add tot hat her awkwardness in interviews and her constant complaining about other people's messes etc and for some of us she was no longer endearing. I know KyBu is very similar, but he wins so he has validation when he speaks and he willingly takes on the role of the villain.

Here is to another top 25 finish.
 
I know when I went to the Las Vegas race last March (2017), I was impressed how many people were walking around wearing Danica gear. And it wasn't just kids or women, either. :idunno:
 
Excellent post by gnomesayin pertaining to drivers that had transitioned from Indycars to stock cars. A very informative and factual post. Add to his post the fact that A J Foyt and Mario Andretti both won the Indy 500 and the Daytona 500, you have two more examples of drivers making the switch successfully. Also, Donnie Allison completed all 500 laps in the 1970 Indy 500 to finish fourth. Johnny Rutherford won one of the qualifying races at Daytona, I'm thinking in 1963 driving for Smokey Yunick. And Kyle Larson, one of the current hottest NASCAR drivers, came from the open wheel ranks and still runs them. I think Harvick is probably right about sticking to one style, it's better over the long haul. But the most talented drivers can be successful in both. Add to that the old IROC series. The first four or five champions came from the open wheel ranks. So they adapted pretty quick to the full bodied cars. After Bobby Allison won the IROC title in 1980, it was about all NASCAR drivers winning it from that point on. With the exception of Al Jr. around 1988. Mark Martin owned that series.
 
mack said:
Excellent post by gnomesayin pertaining to drivers that had transitioned from Indycars to stock cars. A very informative and factual post. Add to his post the fact that A J Foyt and Mario Andretti both won the Indy 500 and the Daytona 500, you have two more examples of drivers making the switch successfully. Also, Donnie Allison completed all 500 laps in the 1970 Indy 500 to finish fourth. Johnny Rutherford won one of the qualifying races at Daytona, I'm thinking in 1963 driving for Smokey Yunick. And Kyle Larson, one of the current hottest NASCAR drivers, came from the open wheel ranks and still runs them. I think Harvick is probably right about sticking to one style, it's better over the long haul. But the most talented drivers can be successful in both. Add to that the old IROC series. The first four or five champions came from the open wheel ranks. So they adapted pretty quick to the full bodied cars. After Bobby Allison won the IROC title in 1980, it was about all NASCAR drivers winning it from that point on. With the exception of Al Jr. around 1988. Mark Martin owned that series.
Click to expand...

Don't make the mistake of comparing Indycar drivers of the past to anyone from the last 30 years or so. The cars that Foyt, Andretti and others in the day were SO different from the cars that came later that they share nothing but a name. In fact, guys like Foyt cut their teeth in roadsters, which of course were front engine cars. They also drove a wide variety of different cars on different surfaces, so they didn't get locked into one kind of driving style, and most of the big Indycar stars also drove in the USAC stock car series too, so they were not stock car novices. They were also primarily oval track racers. The competition was also MUCH different back then. When Mario won Daytona in 1967, you only had to beat maybe 5-7 guys, and he stepped into an absolute top tier Holman Moody car. Does ANYBODY think if Mario had tried the same thing in 1977, 1987, or 1997 the results would be ANYWHERE close to the same? The same goes for Foyt in 1972. Since the 1980's began, the majority of Indycar drivers have come from small low powered open wheel road course cars, and the difference is HUGE. Also, people like to paint Tony Stewart as an Indycar driver, but his entire Indycar career was 26 races, and he only ran the full schedule such as it was then twice, and he ran in an era of VERY diminished competition after the IRL split. Against the current crowd, he'd be lucky to get a podium. For whatever odd reason though, stock car drivers seem to be able to go drive Indycars fairly successfully.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pat
Formerjackman said:
Don't make the mistake of comparing Indycar drivers of the past to anyone from the last 30 years or so. The cars that Foyt, Andretti and others in the day were SO different from the cars that came later that they share nothing but a name. In fact, guys like Foyt cut their teeth in roadsters, which of course were front engine cars. They also drove a wide variety of different cars on different surfaces, so they didn't get locked into one kind of driving style, and most of the big Indycar stars also drove in the USAC stock car series too, so they were not stock car novices. They were also primarily oval track racers. The competition was also MUCH different back then. When Mario won Daytona in 1967, you only had to beat maybe 5-7 guys, and he stepped into an absolute top tier Holman Moody car. Does ANYBODY think if Mario had tried the same thing in 1977, 1987, or 1997 the results would be ANYWHERE close to the same? The same goes for Foyt in 1972. Since the 1980's began, the majority of Indycar drivers have come from small low powered open wheel road course cars, and the difference is HUGE. Also, people like to paint Tony Stewart as an Indycar driver, but his entire Indycar career was 26 races, and he only ran the full schedule such as it was then twice, and he ran in an era of VERY diminished competition after the IRL split. Against the current crowd, he'd be lucky to get a podium. For whatever odd reason though, stock car drivers seem to be able to go drive Indycars fairly successfully.
Click to expand...
I point to Tony only to show that it's possible to come to stock cars from a different background in the middle of your career and be successful. While he had limited time in Indy cars, his early years were in series and vehicles to prepare him for that style of racing, not the typical background typical to those aiming for a stock car career.

Yeah, the divergence of the cars in the various series since Mario and AJ's time makes it nearly impossible to jump around AND be competitive. The 'Memorial Day Double' is about as close as it gets these days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pat
OK, but aside from his little Indy diversion, Tony's background is the same as Jeff Gordon's or Kyle Larson's. Of course you're right that Tony was a little bit older than most drivers that have been able to successfully transition. Back to the original point, NOBODY has ever come from a background similar to Danica's and become a truly successful stock car driver. Montoya would be the closest, and granted he was better than Danica, but I am reluctant to call his stock car career a success. Montoya was also a successful F1 driver, meaning that at least theoretically he was in the top 1/10 of 1% of all drivers in the WORLD, although I think we can debate the notion that all F1 drivers are the best in the world. Since Jeff and Tony's exhibition runs were the closest we have ever been to a NASCAR driver in an F1 car, we have nothing to make a comparison to.
 
On oval tracks, rear-engine open wheel cars ride around on the right rear. NASCAR stock cars ride around on the right front.

Completely different things.
 
I gotta say that I think it is way more safer to try and put out a fire with gasoline then to talk about Danica Patrick. May the good lord help us all if she ever gets nominated for the HOF.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I agree with your post, but I'll raise the minor quibble that Jeff and Kyle's backgrounds weren't considered 'traditional' either.

Good points.
Click to expand...

Not traditional before about 1995, but mainstream, maybe even preferred now. I think Jeff showed that that mix of dirt/pavement open wheel cars works for future stock car drivers as long as you don't stay too long, especially on the dirt. We're still waiting for somebody to show us that Indy type cars or their feeder series are a recipe for success in a stock car. I still think that maybe if Danica had moved to stock cars by the time she turned 21, the results MIGHT have been somewhat better. The one irony of Danica is that despite her background, she really isn't a very good road racer, regardless of the car. That girl was BUILT for oval racing.
 
Formerjackman said:
OK, but aside from his little Indy diversion, Tony's background is the same as Jeff Gordon's or Kyle Larson's. Of course you're right that Tony was a little bit older than most drivers that have been able to successfully transition. Back to the original point, NOBODY has ever come from a background similar to Danica's and become a truly successful stock car driver. Montoya would be the closest, and granted he was better than Danica, but I am reluctant to call his stock car career a success. Montoya was also a successful F1 driver, meaning that at least theoretically he was in the top 1/10 of 1% of all drivers in the WORLD, although I think we can debate the notion that all F1 drivers are the best in the world. Since Jeff and Tony's exhibition runs were the closest we have ever been to a NASCAR driver in an F1 car, we have nothing to make a comparison to.
Click to expand...

Rather than this vague notion of what is true success, I'll point again to the drivers and numbers I cited. It isn't just Montoya. Allmendinger has by any measurable standard been much more successful. Robby Gordon was too.

I agree that Tony Stewart doesn't really fit in with the IndyCar / formula car convert class, and is more akin to the background of Jeff Gordon, Ryan Newman, Kasey Kahne, etc.

On the other hand, Danica had more success than Dario Franchitti did in his brief attempt at NASCAR. She managed better than Patrick Carpentier or Scott Speed. Better than some, considerably worse than others.
 
gnomesayin said:
Rather than this vague notion of what is true success, I'll point again to the drivers and numbers I cited. It isn't just Montoya. Allmendinger has by any measurable standard been much more successful. Robby Gordon was too.
Click to expand...

More successful yes, but not really successful. I LIKE AJ, but at some point I wonder how he keeps that ride. Take away road course numbers from all three, and there isn't a whole lot there, but yes, truthfully, they are all better drivers than Danica, but as you pointed out, she ran better than Dario, who is ALSO more talented than her. I think some people take to certain things better than others regardless of talent, but certain paths tend to help stack the deck in your favor. Rick Mears is one of my all time heroes, and even he admitted that he NEVER got comfortable, let alone being racy in the IROC cars.
 
Formerjackman said:
Don't make the mistake of comparing Indycar drivers of the past to anyone from the last 30 years or so. The cars that Foyt, Andretti and others in the day were SO different from the cars that came later that they share nothing but a name. In fact, guys like Foyt cut their teeth in roadsters, which of course were front engine cars. They also drove a wide variety of different cars on different surfaces, so they didn't get locked into one kind of driving style, and most of the big Indycar stars also drove in the USAC stock car series too, so they were not stock car novices. They were also primarily oval track racers. The competition was also MUCH different back then. When Mario won Daytona in 1967, you only had to beat maybe 5-7 guys, and he stepped into an absolute top tier Holman Moody car. Does ANYBODY think if Mario had tried the same thing in 1977, 1987, or 1997 the results would be ANYWHERE close to the same? The same goes for Foyt in 1972. Since the 1980's began, the majority of Indycar drivers have come from small low powered open wheel road course cars, and the difference is HUGE. Also, people like to paint Tony Stewart as an Indycar driver, but his entire Indycar career was 26 races, and he only ran the full schedule such as it was then twice, and he ran in an era of VERY diminished competition after the IRL split. Against the current crowd, he'd be lucky to get a podium. For whatever odd reason though, stock car drivers seem to be able to go drive Indycars fairly successfully.
Click to expand...

Good points, AJ winning Daytona in 1972 in the Wood bros ride, would be equal to winning it today in Penske equipment. The Wood bros stuff was top notch in those days. AJ and Mario to me personified the guys that could wheel just about anything, from a horse and buggy on up. Mario winning the 500 in 1967 always seemed like a bigger deal to me, considering Petty won 27 times that year, 10 in a row at one point. So the Hemi car was dominant for sure. But, as you mentioned, the Holman-Moody equipment was as good as there was. I guess there are drivers that adapt quicker, and some who never can get the hang of something new.
 
mack said:
I'm guessing two cars, tops. If they had trouble in the clash, and more in the 125, could make it hard to be in the 500.
Click to expand...
And likely GoDaddy is ponying up a fixed amount for one race with a large audience. Runnng the Clash, with its smaller TV audience, would have to come out of the team's profits, even if damage wasn't an issue.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
And likely GoDaddy is ponying up a fixed amount for one race with a large audience. Runnng the Clash, with its smaller TV audience, would have to come out of the team's profits, even if damage wasn't an issue.
Click to expand...

Better off to run a safe 125, a spot in the 500 is a done deal. stay in the draft, don't tear anything up.
 
Make senses, they probably only leased a few cars for the 500.
 
Kevin Harvick
Fan Marino: The 2018 Daytona 500 will be Danica Patrick’s last NASCAR race (yawn). Does she get too much promotion?

Kevin: Look, Danica survived off publicity, that’s how she got here. She was very popular and had the opportunity to come to NASCAR with sponsorships and made a lot of money; but, in the end, performance trumps the marketing tool. I think you now see that with the quality and the team she’s going to come back and run the Daytona 500 with. The opportunities are a lot less than what she had. I don’t think she gets too much publicity, she’s done things inside of a race car that no female has ever done; but when you are in sports, you must perform. Black, white, girl, boy, it doesn’t matter, at some point that performance is going to matter; in the end, I think that’s the road it went down with Danica.

https://johnwallstreet.com/kevin-harvick-on-daytona-busch-danica/
 
Call it ride buying, call it bringing a sponsor, call it just being different. They'll only get you so far for so long. She had a longer run at the top level than many others, and she's leveraged the popularity for a post-racing career.

Danica to Fox in 2019. :D
 
StandOnIt said:
Kevin Harvick
Fan Marino: The 2018 Daytona 500 will be Danica Patrick’s last NASCAR race (yawn). Does she get too much promotion?

Kevin: Look, Danica survived off publicity, that’s how she got here. She was very popular and had the opportunity to come to NASCAR with sponsorships and made a lot of money; but, in the end, performance trumps the marketing tool. I think you now see that with the quality and the team she’s going to come back and run the Daytona 500 with. The opportunities are a lot less than what she had. I don’t think she gets too much publicity, she’s done things inside of a race car that no female has ever done; but when you are in sports, you must perform. Black, white, girl, boy, it doesn’t matter, at some point that performance is going to matter; in the end, I think that’s the road it went down with Danica.

https://johnwallstreet.com/kevin-harvick-on-daytona-busch-danica/
Click to expand...
Most of this is true.

Ask Bubba about having his Xfinity ride swepped away while he was top 4 in points.

You must perform & have a generous sponsor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pat
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom