Better Racing Will Bring More Fans to Nascar

[AtomicPunk55]

There was some talk on another thread that the racing has been better in Nascar since sometime last year and the "build it and they will come" mentality will kick in and more people will start watching. Do you agree or disagree and for what reasons?

I think first off you have to define what good racing is and based on TV viewership and attendance the plate races are the most popular so evidently many people feel that good racing equals plate racing. Some people think short track racing is the panacea while others gravitate to road courses. There may be a group that love the cookie cutters too for all I know.

I don't think the type of races held at current Nascar tracks will increase TV ratings because my opinion is that traditional American motorsports no longer capture the imagination of people the way they did in decades past. In other words you could have finishes like Busch and Craven at Darlington each week and it wouldn't improve ratings. Something like that showing the last lap and a half might be very popular on Youtube though. IMO there will always be a market for Nascar so I am not suggesting it is dying but just on its way to becoming smaller. Smaller is not synonymous with poor quality bad racing either.

 

[sdj]

This is so subjective on a person by person basis, take @AndyMarquisLive , he would have every one of the 36 races held at Martinsville if he could get his way.

I for one really like the mix of racing venues across the country. To me this makes the creme rise to the top in actual professional driver ability more so than any other racing series in the world.

Good racing is what ever you call it as a fan. Lot's of lead changes, rough rubbing racing, plate racing, road course racing, 1/2, 1 and 1.5, 2.5 and 2.6 mile tracks all produce their on unique races and outcomes.

If they will get the commercials under control and show more of the field running on TV, that would help.

To be honest, if it was not for a DVR, I would not watch the whole race, ever, unless I am at the venue.

 

[Spotter22]

You're right, better racing wont do it. Its better now than its ever been and the crowds have dwindled. We can argue all day long about why, but not about the on track competition.

 

[AtomicPunk55]

This is so subjective on a person by person basis, take @AndyMarquisLive , he would have every one of the 36 races held at Martinsville if he could get his way.
I for one really like the mix of racing venues across the country. To me this makes the creme rise to the top in actual professional driver ability more so than any other racing series in the world.
Good racing is what ever you call it as a fan. Lot's of lead changes, rough rubbing racing, plate racing, road course racing, 1/2, 1 and 1.5, 2.5 and 2.6 mile tracks all produce their on unique races and outcomes.
If they will get the commercials under control and show more of the field running on TV, that would help.
To be honest, if it was not for a DVR, I would not watch the whole race, ever, unless I am at the venue.

Good points as who knows how many answers you would get if you asked 10 people to define good racing. I agree with you about commercial and other interruptions in Nascar as live races are unwatchable to me so I DVR all of them so I can skip through all the things that have no value to me. Another problem for me is that many Nascar races are on during good weather and I like to be outside doing things.

You're right, better racing wont do it. Its better now than its ever been and the crowds have dwindled. We can argue all day long about why, but not about the on track competition.

For sure as Brian France has said the racing has never been better and there are forum members that really like it too. Being good doesn't necessarily mean being popular and being bad doesn't mean being unpopular as is the case with the golden arches.

 

[HoneyBadger]

This is so subjective on a person by person basis, take @AndyMarquisLive , he would have every one of the 36 races held at Martinsville if he could get his way.

I for one really like the mix of racing venues across the country. To me this makes the creme rise to the top in actual professional driver ability more so than any other racing series in the world.

Good racing is what ever you call it as a fan. Lot's of lead changes, rough rubbing racing, plate racing, road course racing, 1/2, 1 and 1.5, 2.5 and 2.6 mile tracks all produce their on unique races and outcomes.

If they will get the commercials under control and show more of the field running on TV, that would help.

To be honest, if it was not for a DVR, I would not watch the whole race, ever, unless I am at the venue.

I like variety but there are too many bigger tracks and not enough smaller tracks or road courses. 27 races are at ovals a mile or bigger, and 13 of those are at 1.5-mile tracks. Up until this year, the playoffs consisted of five1.5-mile tracks as well as one short track, one plate track (the only track that doesn't belong in the playoff IMO) and three one-mile tracks. I'm not sure where there's enough variety in that.

If you replaced Martin Truex, Jr. last year with, I don't know, Joey Logano or Denny Hamlin, this forum and most of NASCAR Nation would be saying that the championship proved the schedule is stale. I don't mean it as a knock on Truex at all - he flat dominated at the tracks that made up half of the playoff and dominated during the season at the tracks that made up an overwhelming majority of the schedule. And he did run well at the road courses and short tracks as well.


More importantly ... I really wish the Truck Series would go back to the way it was when it was formed. 200-250 lap races at bullrings across America with a halfway break. And shake up the XFINITY Series to where it's a mix of companion races w/ Cup and standalone short track and road course races.

Go back to running XFINITY any week Cup is off, or on Sundays when Cup runs Saturday night, at tracks in markets that don't have Cup races. Attract those Cup guys to come run those standalone XFINITY races as well so fans who have never gotten to see their favorite drivers race can get the chance to.

 

[Towmater]

I went to the Indy 500 a couple of years ago. Seat near the start finish line with the pits right in front of me. I was bored to death 1/2 through the race and I am in my 50's. Why? Every 45 to 50 seconds is when the cars zipped by for about 3 seconds. The rest of the time I was watching it on a large screen TV hanging from the stands on the other side of the track. I left at the mid way point to beat the traffic and to go back to my hotel to get ready for the drive home the next morning. I made it back to my hotel and watched the finish on TV. I was more comfortable, and was able to keep up with the race much better than I could have at the track.

I think the above might explain why the Brickyard race is down so much in attendance. It wouldn't mater how good the racing got. The track is too big to see it.

 

[Formerjackman]

I went to the Indy 500 a couple of years ago. Seat near the start finish line with the pits right in front of me. I was bored to death 1/2 through the race and I am in my 50's. Why? Every 45 to 50 seconds is when the cars zipped by for about 3 seconds. The rest of the time I was watching it on a large screen TV hanging from the stands on the other side of the track. I left at the mid way point to beat the traffic and to go back to my hotel to get ready for the drive home the next morning. I made it back to my hotel and watched the finish on TV. I was more comfortable, and was able to keep up with the race much better than I could have at the track.

I think the above might explain why the Brickyard race is down so much in attendance. It wouldn't mater how good the racing got. The track is too big to see it.

Interesting that would say that, because in my opinion, the Indy 500 has NEVER been more exciting as far excitement right to the end. Nearly ALL of them have been in absolute doubt right down to the last lap, and some have had last lap changes for the lead. Of course that plays into EXACTLY what I want to see when I watch a race; close competition, a LOT of passing for the lead and in the pack, and a finish that goes down to the wire. That was my only complaint about the Phoenix race. It was great right down to the last 15 laps or so, when it became crystal clear that nobody had ANYTHING for the 4 car.

 

[joe h]

1. The wrong drivers are dominant. If Larson and chase had a weekly rivalry, the ratings would be increasing.
2. The days of rubbin and tire donuts on the door panel, are long gone.
3. The kids are boring and there is an appearance that few drivers are even fighting for positions.
4. Over a third of the schedule is on the same track. It is like watching the patriots beat up on the browns week after week.
5. If you’re not a harvick, truex, Busch, Johnson fan, the last 17 years have mostly sucked.
6. Tv coverage doesn’t even try, I can get better shots with my iPhone sitting in the top row of turn one of any track, minus Indy of course. The commentary is atrocious, especially the hacks at nbc, the commercials run endlessly, which doesn’t matter anymore, since nothing is happening 99% of the time.
7. I think chase busting and the fact Wallace will continue the 43 midpack tradition, plus the lack of excitement, has killed the sport for me. After following 17 years of juniors lackluster performance, I’m not wasting another 15 years watching someone rack up ten wins, if they’re lucky.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

I went to the Indy 500 a couple of years ago. Seat near the start finish line with the pits right in front of me. I was bored to death 1/2 through the race and I am in my 50's. Why? Every 45 to 50 seconds is when the cars zipped by for about 3 seconds. The rest of the time I was watching it on a large screen TV hanging from the stands on the other side of the track. I left at the mid way point to beat the traffic and to go back to my hotel to get ready for the drive home the next morning. I made it back to my hotel and watched the finish on TV. I was more comfortable, and was able to keep up with the race much better than I could have at the track.
I think the above might explain why the Brickyard race is down so much in attendance. It wouldn't mater how good the racing got. The track is too big to see it.

I've been telling people this for years, that the track is a lousy place to see any race. However, the I500 is a different critter from all other races in the US. Like the Kentucky Derby, it's one of those events attended by large numbers of people who don't care about the sport involved. They're just there for the 'spectacle', the 'event'. Very little about it is reflective of motor sports in the US as a whole.

Interesting that would say that, because in my opinion, the Indy 500 has NEVER been more exciting as far excitement right to the end. Nearly ALL of them have been in absolute doubt right down to the last lap, and some have had last lap changes for the lead. Of course that plays into EXACTLY what I want to see when I watch a race; close competition, a LOT of passing for the lead and in the pack, and a finish that goes down to the wire. That was my only complaint about the Phoenix race. It was great right down to the last 15 laps or so, when it became crystal clear that nobody had ANYTHING for the 4 car.

Towmater didn't say IndyCar racing wasn't exciting. He said the track configuration at Indianapolis prevented him from seeing it. NASCAR races there have the same problem. The track just isn't spectator friendly. It doesn't matter how good the racing is when you can't see it.

 

[dpkimmel2001]

And here, I loved everything about attending races. I didn't know I was wrong until today.

 

[TexasRaceLady]

And here, I loved everything about attending races. I didn't know I was wrong until today.

Same here, dpk. Me and 100,000 of my closest friends. Always had a grand time at a race.

 

[HoneyBadger]

1. The wrong drivers are dominant. If Larson and chase had a weekly rivalry, the ratings would be increasing.
2. The days of rubbin and tire donuts on the door panel, are long gone.
3. The kids are boring and there is an appearance that few drivers are even fighting for positions.
4. Over a third of the schedule is on the same track. It is like watching the patriots beat up on the browns week after week.
5. If you’re not a harvick, truex, Busch, Johnson fan, the last 17 years have mostly sucked.
6. Tv coverage doesn’t even try, I can get better shots with my iPhone sitting in the top row of turn one of any track, minus Indy of course. The commentary is atrocious, especially the hacks at nbc, the commercials run endlessly, which doesn’t matter anymore, since nothing is happening 99% of the time.
7. I think chase busting and the fact Wallace will continue the 43 midpack tradition, plus the lack of excitement, has killed the sport for me. After following 17 years of juniors lackluster performance, I’m not wasting another 15 years watching someone rack up ten wins, if they’re lucky.

Some valid points here. I don't think Chase Elliott's a "bust" but I don't think he's going to be what the media expects him to be. I still say multiple wins each year, once he finally gets that monkey off his back, and maybe a few championships. But he's not going to be Dale, Jeff, Jimmie, Bill and King Richard all rolled into one superhuman driver. I really feel bad for him with the expectations the media has laid out.

It's WAAAYYYY too soon to judge Bubba. The entire Chevrolet contingent is running poorly right now. Once things improve, Wallace will be a top-25 guy, maybe top-20. If he overperforms in that car, I would not be surprised if he ended up in the #1 or #31 or something.

 

[dpkimmel2001]

Same here, dpk. Me and 100,000 of my closest friends. Always had a grand time at a race.

I can recall moments from almost every race that I've attended over the years. I can't say the same about the ones that I watched from my couch.

 

[AtomicPunk55]

I did not care for the Brickyard in person but I didn't mind the open wheelers. I started watching the Indy 500 again a couple of years ago and really liked it and I might try and catch some other Indy Car races this year too.
What I would really like to see is the X and cup cars run at IRP and I know the track capacity is only 30K but IMS doesn't get much more then that and the race would be much better, IMO.

Same here, dpk. Me and 100,000 of my closest friends. Always had a grand time at a race.

About me and about 35K of my closest friends at the Brickyard nowdays.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

And here, I loved everything about attending races. I didn't know I was wrong until today.

Same here, dpk. Me and 100,000 of my closest friends. Always had a grand time at a race.

Note that I'm talking only about Indianapolis. The moment I most frequently recall about being at IMS was how I couldn't see squat, especially compared to the view at IRP the nights before. I've been to at least nine other tracks and would go back to all of them.

 

[AtomicPunk55]

Some valid points here. I don't think Chase Elliott's a "bust" but I don't think he's going to be what the media expects him to be. I still say multiple wins each year, once he finally gets that monkey off his back, and maybe a few championships. But he's not going to be Dale, Jeff, Jimmie, Bill and King Richard all rolled into one superhuman driver. I really feel bad for him with the expectations the media has laid out.

It's WAAAYYYY too soon to judge Bubba. The entire Chevrolet contingent is running poorly right now. Once things improve, Wallace will be a top-25 guy, maybe top-20. If he overperforms in that car, I would not be surprised if he ended up in the #1 or #31 or something.

I have a feeling when it all shakes out Byron will be head and shoulders above all the young guys. I can't prove this but I see something that tells me he will be very good.

 

[Formerjackman]

About me and about 35K of my closest friends at the Brickyard nowdays.

I have been to every single Brickyard, and even though it sucks as a venue, as a native Hoosier that fell in love with the Indy 500 at age 7, just being there is special to me. But, I also get why others don't feel that way. And yes, I am STILL pissed about what NASCAR did to IRP. For several years, we went to all three races, and the races at IRP were often the best part of the weekend.

 

[AtomicPunk55]

I have been to every single Brickyard, and even though it sucks as a venue, as a native Hoosier that fell in love with the Indy 500 at age 7, just being there is special to me. But, I also get why others don't feel that way. And yes, I am STILL pissed about what NASCAR did to IRP. For several years, we went to all three races, and the races at IRP were often the best part of the weekend.

I loved seeing the midgets and silver crowns at IRP. My favorite Brickyard was when I sat directly across from the pits as it was really interesting to me. The worst one I saw was from a suite as it was worse than watching from home.

 

[HoneyBadger]

This is so subjective on a person by person basis, take @AndyMarquisLive , he would have every one of the 36 races held at Martinsville if he could get his way.

That doesn't sound so bad.

 

[Towmater]

Towmater didn't say IndyCar racing wasn't exciting. He said the track configuration at Indianapolis prevented him from seeing it. NASCAR races there have the same problem. The track just isn't spectator friendly. It doesn't matter how good the racing is when you can't see it.

You picked up on what I was relaying. If I'm interested in seeing a NASCAR race at the track then I'll buy tickets to Bristol. I can see the entire race, cars, racing,..whatever while I am in the stands. Indy on the other hand is so freaking big that you can't see turn 3 if you are standing in turn 2. I enjoyed building memories with my family at the 500. When it is the 125th running I will return. That way my son will have been at the 100th and the 125th. I hope he lives long enough to go to the 150th, and 175th running.

 

[TexasRaceLady]

Indy is about the only track I wouldn't go back to --- as others have said, you really can't see diddly.
Every other track I've been to -- I'd be back in a heartbeat.

I can recall moments from almost every race that I've attended over the years. I can't say the same about the ones that I watched from my couch.

Same here. In particular the fall race at Charlotte one year when it rained buckets. Me and my 2 girlfriends, soaking wet and walking in ankle deep water.
Had a blast.

Have to add: When I went to The Brickyard, did the whole week. Did ALL the races at IRP --- greatest week at the race track I've ever had.

 

[Formerjackman]

I loved seeing the midgets and silver crowns at IRP. My favorite Brickyard was when I sat directly across from the pits as it was really interesting to me. The worst one I saw was from a suite as it was worse than watching from home.

Our seats are just south of the start finish line, so we get to see the pit action and the victory lane stuff.

 

[Formerjackman]

That doesn't sound so bad.

I'd certainly vote for four races a year there, I don't think that would suck at all.

 

[gnomesayin]

No, I don't think what I consider to be the best racing NASCAR has to offer will "bring more fans" in a meaningful way. That's not what moves the needle for mass audiences. Stars and narratives do. In hindsight if they had moved sooner to fix the on-track product rather than piling on gimmicks, perhaps the losses of longtime fans that has occurred could have been stemmed. That is purely speculative.

I was more interested in having a discussion about whether the recent races that feature fewer cautions, harder to drive cars with the reduced downforce, increased tire wear, and alternate strategies that play out over the long green runs are in fact an improvement, independent of whether it impacts the Nielsen numbers. I'm interested in ratings and attendance too from a business standpoint, but it's not everything.

By the way, races at Daytona and Talladega have always been among the most popular events on the schedule, before and after the plates. The Daytona 500 is the Daytona 500, and would be the biggest race of the year if they covered the surface with dirt or ran the roval. It's legacy and narrative that makes events "big" beyond a hardcore central fanbase, not the mechanics or rules of the game.

 

[Charlie Spencer]

Back to the original topic, I'm with those who think the quality of the racing by itself isn't going to bring people to the sport. The crowds and casual interest of the late '90s and early '00s are gone. They were nice, but they're not necessary for the sport to survive. I think NASCAR will continue to be a viable sanctioning body and its Cup series will remain the premiere racing series in the US for at least another couple of decades.

The Daytona 500 is the Daytona 500, and would be the biggest race of the year if they covered the surface with dirt or ran the roval.

Gosh but I'd love to see either of those options tried, along with any other options that can safely remove the plates.

 

[Spotter22]

No, I don't think what I consider to be the best racing NASCAR has to offer will "bring more fans" in a meaningful way. That's not what moves the needle for mass audiences. Stars and narratives do. In hindsight if they had moved sooner to fix the on-track product rather than piling on gimmicks, perhaps the losses of longtime fans that has occurred could have been stemmed. That is purely speculative.

I was more interested in having a discussion about whether the recent races that feature fewer cautions, harder to drive cars with the reduced downforce, increased tire wear, and alternate strategies that play out over the long green runs are in fact an improvement, independent of whether it impacts the Nielsen numbers. I'm interested in ratings and attendance too from a business standpoint, but it's not everything.

By the way, races at Daytona and Talladega have always been among the most popular events on the schedule, before and after the plates. The Daytona 500 is the Daytona 500, and would be the biggest race of the year if they covered the surface with dirt or ran the roval. It's legacy and narrative that makes events "big" beyond a hardcore central fanbase, not the mechanics or rules of the game.

Yes I think its a vast improvement with all you mentioned and the stages combined. If we want to get the TV ratings up we would have to move in a different direction. Imagine Bowman Gray and the antics there, then transfer that to the Cup Series every weekend. TV numbers through the roof.

 

[TexasRaceLady]

I was more interested in having a discussion about whether the recent races that feature fewer cautions, harder to drive cars with the reduced downforce, increased tire wear, and alternate strategies that play out over the long green runs are in fact an improvement, independent of whether it impacts the Nielsen numbers.

For me, the racing with these changes has been an improvement. I love the "thinking out of the box" pit strategies played by the teams.

 

[4tires17gals]

The best way to improve racing is to reduce the speeds of the cars.

 

[sdj]

The only time I saw Nascar at Indy was the first year they went there, I was close by on business and went to a practice, couple of us sat where they enter turn one. It was fun, but, I care not to see one live there cause you can not see worth a crap and it's pretty much follow the leader etc. If they canned Indy, it would be fine with me.

Now I have been to Nascar races in Daytona, Homestead, Atlanta, Dega, Charlotte and Bristol, I will go back to any of them (except Homested at this point, never say never though) for a race. Nothing is better than live racing at the track with a headset to keep up with the goings on.

 

[sdj]

The best way to improve racing is to reduce the speeds of the cars.

 

[TexasRaceLady]

Yes I think its a vast improvement with all you mentioned and the stages combined. If we want to get the TV ratings up we would have to move in a different direction. Imagine Bowman Gray and the antics there, then transfer that to the Cup Series every weekend. TV numbers through the roof.

I can only go on what I see around here within the prime demographic that everyone is after for ratings. And around here, it's not the dirt cars that I saw all the time in East Texas, it's the "fast and furious" type little cars doing their best to impress you with the noise and the useless little wings on the back.

 

[joe h]

If nascar truly wanted to fix this mess, the very first thing they have to do is eliminate half of the cookie cutters, right now. I don’t care if they reconfigure them, or just bulldoze them, but half of them needed to go a decade ago. Next, give us a car that looks like a damn street car. It isn’t like these ugly boxes they have now are producing the style of racing anyone is craving, so at the very least give us something that looks more like the imsa gt class, or better yet, something closer to drifting or rally.

A bottle of nitrous would also be cool to see.

 

[Formerjackman]

The best way to improve racing is to reduce the speeds of the cars.

I would LOVE to see a serious attempt at that, even if it was just done as an experiment. Just as an example, the pole speed at Michigan is a good 40 MPH higher than it was when I first went there. In my opinion, the actual racing since then has only gotten worse.

 

[AtomicPunk55]

I can only go on what I see around here within the prime demographic that everyone is after for ratings. And around here, it's not the dirt cars that I saw all the time in East Texas, it's the "fast and furious" type little cars doing their best to impress you with the noise and the useless little wings on the back.

My friend's grandson must have bought 50 erector sets for the wing he has on his little hod rod. We laugh about it but not in front of him as he is proud of his ride and we all had our time.
I wonder if Nascar of the future will use little 4 cylinder cars on a variety of different tracks. Some of the tracks I like the best have the slowest speeds so going super fast is not an issue to me.

 

[sdj]

If nascar truly wanted to fix this mess, the very first thing they have to do is eliminate half of the cookie cutters, right now. I don’t care if they reconfigure them, or just bulldoze them, but half of them needed to go a decade ago. Next, give us a car that looks like a damn street car. It isn’t like these ugly boxes they have now are producing the style of racing anyone is craving, so at the very least give us something that looks more like the imsa gt class, or better yet, something closer to drifting or rally.

A bottle of nitrous would also be cool to see.

They are trying to change up with the Roval race in September at Charlotte. I think if that does as well as I feel it will, some other tracks may try it also on a second date race.

 

[DIDIT]

In response to the original question, will better racing bring more people...I say no. We have our hardcore fans, we are the ones that complain about the cookie cutter tracks, we also know about downforce, tire wear and pit strategy. I think what made NASCAR boom was all the casual fans jumping on board because it was the in thing to do. Honestly, I don't know one hardcore fan from 15 years ago that still does not folow NASCAR. I know a lot of the casual fans that have moved on.

Another example that it is just not about the racing was the Indy cars at Texas a few years back. I am not sure I have ever seen better racing than what they put on...but still the stands were mostly empty.

I enjoy all kinds of racing, heck I even enjoy watching tourist drive go carts.

 

[HoneyBadger]

No, I don't think what I consider to be the best racing NASCAR has to offer will "bring more fans" in a meaningful way. That's not what moves the needle for mass audiences. Stars and narratives do.

Here's one of the biggest problems though. NASCAR still revolves around Dale Earnhardt and, until we fix that and get the sport out of his shadow, we can't make it about the current stars.

Here's the rub ... the current fans aren't going to let go and there isn't a generation of new fans to replace them.

 

[sdj]

Another example that it is just not about the racing was the Indy cars at Texas a few years back. I am not sure I have ever seen better racing than what they put on...but still the stands were mostly empty.

Indy car does not market their product very well. I live 87 miles from St. Petersburg, Fl. and I saw or heard nothing about this last event. The only reason I knew it was going to happened, was on this forum.

 

[MRM]

The younger generation could care less about cars and racing them. How often do you see someone under 30 that drives something really fixed up to shake the ground (Hondas with loud mufflers don't count)? That translate to falling attendance. It's no different at the short tracks. Working with several tracks in my area, it's a challenge to get younger people to come to a race that aren't already associated with it through family or friends.

 

[AtomicPunk55]

Here's one of the biggest problems though. NASCAR still revolves around Dale Earnhardt and, until we fix that and get the sport out of his shadow, we can't make it about the current stars.
Here's the rub ... the current fans aren't going to let go and there isn't a generation of new fans to replace them.

Interesting theory and if true very alarming as if you are 21 years old you don't remember watching Dale race.

The younger generation could care less about cars and racing them. How often do you see someone under 30 that drives something really fixed up to shake the ground (Hondas with loud mufflers don't count)? That translate to falling attendance. It's no different at the short tracks. Working with several tracks in my area, it's a challenge to get younger people to come to a race that aren't already associated with it through family or friends.

If you attend a muscle car show and you are 55 you are probably the youngest person in the place.