As I've said several times, this is the equivalent of catch-up points that no other sport has implemented.
Caution clocks and timed races
- Thread starter dpkimmel2001
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As I've said several times, this is the equivalent of catch-up points that no other sport has implemented.
Simple Fan
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Other sports have drafts to help bad teams "catch up" by giving them early picks. They also have salary caps that are meant to keep teams on a level playing field. Everything NASCAR is doing is intended to produce a better race and is nothing new in the world of sports.
gnomesayin
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This is not an apt comparison. NASCAR's version of that is testing limits, restrictions to limit spending like the one-engine rule, the charter system with guaranteed money to all teams, etc. Those are off the track / field measures to promote competitive balance, and I mostly applaud those. After reading many discussions on these subjects, you don't seem to differentiate between that and what happens on the track / field during events. There is a major difference. If you need that other sport comparison, deliberately instituting cautions to make races more 'competitive' is actually the same concept as resetting the score at halftime or in the seventh inning or whatever.
My god. I can't believe we're having serious conversations about the possibility of a caution clock in cup. What's worse is they've apparently beaten enough of us over the head with it that some of us think it might be alright.
They just keep moving the goalposts further and further out, and it is wild to witness how many people just accept whatever they do and adjust to the new normal.
RacerrecaR
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I'm ok with timed races in the lower series, but keep them out of the Cup series. The easiest way to prevent races from running long is to quit throwing idiotic cautions for debris and minor car contact. Fix that issue and there will be no need for timed races.
Simple Fan
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You can interpret the caution clock how ever you please. All sports are different but everyone of them install rules make competition better. NASCAR is a lot different from other sports and the rules they apply to make for better competition are a more on track related rules. I have no problem with a caution clock, as I don't see it as a manipulation. They will still be racing once they go green again.
gnomesayin
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You've shifted here. You used an analogy to other sports that is not accurate. Now you're talking up how NASCAR is so different from other sports that comparisons aren't fair. I agree! I'm tired of discussing whether NASCAR should do this or that based on how we think it compares to football or basketball, rather than how it fits within the context of auto racing, which is what NASCAR is.
For people from a motorsports background, caution clocks are crap. Nothing the NFL does justifies them or has anything to do with it.
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Charlie Spencer
Road courses and short tracks.
You may not be the only one, but it looks like most are pessimistic.
Simple Fan
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No I did not say comparisons are not fair. I didn't shift either. My original comparison still stands firm. What I said was that NASCAR is different from other sports and they way they implement rules is more on track oriented but the comparison still stands as a rule meant to even the playing field. We agree that auto racing is different from other sports but the way NASCAR is governed is more comparable to other sports.
I can understand your distaste for a caution clock as it's not typical racing. I for one don't think it effects a race all that much as we already have cautions and some races could use a few more in my opinion. I was skeptical about the caution clock as well but after watching it in the Truck series this year I'm fine with it. Timed races are much worse as it would change teams strategy entirely and be a much different race.
gnomesayin
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You always do a good job of arguing your point of view. I mean that, because man, we could not be further apart, and I think you are arguing what is essentially inarguable.
This isn't true either. You're watching a racing series that races virtually spec cars with heavily restricted engines, and zillions of technical rules. Teams aren't allowed to test outside mandated NASCAR tests, the financial structure has been overhauled to guarantee more even revenue sharing. There are as many or more off-track rules in NASCAR to promote competitive balance than in professional team sports.
Some races "could use a few more". That is the crux of it all, and it's why we'll always be at odds. You see this as entertainment more than sport. Your arguments don't technically hold up, as it is literally the textbook definition of manipulation. If Kyle Busch is ahead by half a lap with 100 laps remaining at Bristol, and no caution flies, he is very likely to win the race. If a caution clock demands a yellow and a restart, his likelihood of winning goes down significantly. Let's at least establish what words mean. Cautions changes race outcomes.
What if they inverted the field during every caution? The leader is now in last place. That will create a lot more passes and excitement. Is that manipulation?
This isn't true either. You're watching a racing series that races virtually spec cars with heavily restricted engines, and zillions of technical rules. Teams aren't allowed to test outside mandated NASCAR tests, the financial structure has been overhauled to guarantee more even revenue sharing. There are as many or more off-track rules in NASCAR to promote competitive balance than in professional team sports.
Simple Fan said:
Some races "could use a few more". That is the crux of it all, and it's why we'll always be at odds. You see this as entertainment more than sport. Your arguments don't technically hold up, as it is literally the textbook definition of manipulation. If Kyle Busch is ahead by half a lap with 100 laps remaining at Bristol, and no caution flies, he is very likely to win the race. If a caution clock demands a yellow and a restart, his likelihood of winning goes down significantly. Let's at least establish what words mean. Cautions changes race outcomes.
What if they inverted the field during every caution? The leader is now in last place. That will create a lot more passes and excitement. Is that manipulation?
4tires17gals
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a halftime would be a good compromise
Matthew2470
It's not that serious
There was a time when I was adamantly against timed races but I have softened my stance. I think 2 hours for most races is plenty. It may even help with attendance since many people are reluctant to sit in the heat for several hours or take their kids. Hell, I might start going to races again if they are shorter.
Charlie Spencer
Road courses and short tracks.
That's why I recommend people take their kids to Xfinity races. They're shorter with more wrecks, so the kids are less likely to get bored. They're cheaper (even free for the kids again), so if they do get bored, you don't mind as much if you have to leave early.
If Cup races are shortened, they better cut the ticket prices correspondingly. I'm not paying the same for a race that runs around 2 hours as I am for the current 3 to 3.5 hours (or longer
).
dpkimmel2001
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I'm never going to pay to travel to a two hour race. I hope if it every comes to that they find someone to replace my unused ticket.
Simple Fan
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Thanks I guess I'll take that as a compliment. I don't think we are that far apart though. We do agree that NASCAR is different from other sports we just see the comparisons differentially. I agree with you about the off track rules NASCAR has but one of the differences that NASCAR has that other sports don't is the ability to have on track rules of such.
I also can see how you see it as manipulation. People also think the NFL manipulates games for offenses with PI penalties and other penalties. Plenty of other examples in other sports as well that people see as manipulation. Truth is these sports are governed by people that want to make the most entertaining product and will implement rules to do so. You can see it as manipulation if you want or enjoy the it for what it is. I for one would rather see Kyle Busch fight to win at Bristol rather than lap 30 cars and win by half a lap, if NASCAR can make that happen with a caution clock then why not. I'm enjoying our conversation though. and hope you are as well.
They could also make that happen by making every race five laps. Why not?
Simple Fan
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Because that would not be in the interest of making the product more entertaining. Like it or not that is NASCARs goal is to make the race entertaining
and produce a better race. Some might think that the way it was was entertaining enough but the people in charge make the decisions and we have to live with them. A 5 lap race would be fine if they were exhibitions mid week I think though. Could throw them on YouTube or Twitter or what ever place they could stream it but that's a different discussion.
gnomesayin
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I appreciate that you are a skilled debater, and I'd like to see what you would be capable of with some better material.
Honestly, I like auto racing so much that it ticks me off that the man who inherited NASCAR can basically be defined by the view you are expressing at times: racing itself is kinda boring, needs more excitement, anything we can do to punch it up is better because 'the product' needs to be more entertaining. That clown inherited a rapidly growing sport and under his leadership it became a rapidly contracting one. I won't necessarily state outright that correlation equals causation, but nobody can credibly argue that his strategies have made the sport more popular. His tenure can be summed up as self-loathing, and it's driven more people away than it has attracted.
We actually don't have to live with them as indicated in the continued lack of interest in the sport. I'm watching less NASCAR now than at any other time in my life.
FLRacingFan
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Not a fan of the idea that you can prepare too well and race too well that we need a welfare system to prevent large margins of victory. I don't want to see the All-Star Race every week.
Simple Fan
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Neither do I. I don't see the caution clock as that big of a deal that it would feel as gimmicky as an all star race. I thought that last year's all star race was pretty ridiculous to tell the truth though.
Simple Fan
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I appreciate that you are a skilled debater, and I'd like to see what you would be capable of with some better material.
Honestly, I like auto racing so much that it ticks me off that the man who inherited NASCAR can basically be defined by the view you are expressing at times: racing itself is kinda boring, needs more excitement, anything we can do to punch it up is better because 'the product' needs to be more entertaining. That clown inherited a rapidly growing sport and under his leadership it became a rapidly contracting one. I won't necessarily state outright that correlation equals causation, but nobody can credibly argue that his strategies have made the sport more popular. His tenure can be summed up as self-loathing, and it's driven more people away than it has attracted.
You both have good points. I'm not saying that the changes he makes are right in any way although I do think some are good for the sport. People losing interest and tuning out gives France and NASCAR more reason to make changes to get people back or gain a new audience. There is no going back that I see so it's either live with it and adjust or leave it like you suggested. Maybe if enough leave he'll cave in and resign.
I agree with what you're saying. I wouldn't have lost interest if he'd have left the sport alone. I've really struggled with the credibility of The Chase. Further mismanagement of the sport by gimmick implementation just drives me farther away. I'm pretty much done with the Truck Series, by the looks of the grandstands most people are also. I don't plan on watching any Nationwide Series races in 2017 and I'll probably only watch half of the Cup races.
I hope Brian France chokes on a chicken bone.
Matthew2470
It's not that serious
Replace you with 2 fans that would rather attend a shorter race? Seems like a win for NASCAR.
gnomesayin
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I would be fine with some races being approximately two hours. I'm a short track racing fan at heart, and that always illustrates for me that longer races aren't necessarily better races. Anyway, there is no way two hours would be their target. They'd be looking for a three hour event, and it makes sense that the TV networks would prefer more consistency on this front.
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dpkimmel2001
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It's all perspective. I've got to travel a minimum of 9 hours to the closest of NASCAR races. Most that I attend are more than a 1000 miles round trip. For me and my family, I don't see a return on investment on shorter races. I've got think that a lot of those RVers that are traveling much further than I do would see it the same way.
I have a tough time understanding the mindset that believes that fans will be attracted to a shorter race.
racingfan7
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It isn't going to Cup. Still would be better than fake debris cautions though really...
I'm alright with it in Trucks if it was 25 or 30 minutes.
dpkimmel2001
Team Owner
Maybe if they print a later 'Start Time' on your ticket vs. mine, we'd all be happy. I still get my money's worth of entertainment and you get your desired, shorter race. That, seems like a win for NASCAR.
I can't imagine anyone who attends races wanting them to be shorter. It's such an amazing experience. Even in races that don't have a lot of 'action,' you can follow your favorite driver; follow a back-marker trying to stay on the lead lap; observe the differing lines of drivers etc. On tv, where they don't generally follow stuff like I mentioned above, I can see where some get bored. I agree with @dpkimmel2001. If you want a shorter race, show up late.
dpkimmel2001
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I was starting to get worried but you've calmed my fears..... Someone gets it.
Team Penske
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I don't want shorter races, I don't think the timed races is for that purpose. Most races along with the TV commentary are 3 hours long. The Tv schedule determines when my recorder is done. I have missed the end of many races just because Nascar can't officiate a race any better. That is the time I want, 3 hours. They can do this by not throwing ridiculous cautions when some one scrapes the wall or a tire is lose behind the wall but off the road. All they need to do is red light pit road and if you cross the line you go to the garage for 5 laps. They need the penalty to be strong enough that teams won't gamble.
Now, is a 3 hr, time limit for racing? Rain delays and red flag stops should not be counted into the 3 hrs. IMO. However if your at the track, it wouldn't really matter what they do because your going to see it all. It only effects the TV time.
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Skoalbandit33
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You have hit the nail on the head several times in this thread but none more than when you spoke of entertainment versus sport. Nascar has steadily moved away from the world of sport with things like the free pass, wave arounds and misuse of the yellow flag so a caution clock is essentially legitimizing manipulation and promoting entertainment at all costs.
A while back I was bemoaning the manipulation free passes and wave arounds cause but I was shot down by a some people as they said those things may change the lap a driver finishes on but don't really alter the finishing order. Obviously the finishing order can change dramatically as drivers that were laps down have gone onto win races and others have gained multiple positions late in races due to Nascar charity.
IMO wise people do not attempt to justify Nascar's incongruities as it is attempting to defend the indefensible.
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We pull the RV 5,000 miles plus every summer to attend Nascar races and we sure as hell don't want shorter races. As @dpkimmel2001 and a few others on here know It's a full day's experience and the race is just a part of it. Leave the damn races alone for a change.
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Skoalbandit33
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I appreciate that you are a skilled debater, and I'd like to see what you would be capable of with some better material.
Honestly, I like auto racing so much that it ticks me off that the man who inherited NASCAR can basically be defined by the view you are expressing at times: racing itself is kinda boring, needs more excitement, anything we can do to punch it up is better because 'the product' needs to be more entertaining. That clown inherited a rapidly growing sport and under his leadership it became a rapidly contracting one. I won't necessarily state outright that correlation equals causation, but nobody can credibly argue that his strategies have made the sport more popular. His tenure can be summed up as self-loathing, and it's driven more people away than it has attracted.
The series was in decline prior to Brian assuming the helm but obviously the bloated little alkie and his minions did nothing to turn the ship around and likely hastened the demise.
You never want to provide a product or service to people with the attitude that they have to live with it because if you do so you will end up losing over half your customer base as Nascar has. Can you imagine if you took your car in to be repaired and it was not fixed properly and the owner of the business told you you had to live with it?
As I have said before shorter races would probably be better for the viewers at home but would suck for those in attendance. I know if I saddle up and head to Darlington it had better be for the Southern 500 and not the Southern 180 minute.
Simple Fan
First or Last
I agree and that's exactly what is happening in NASCAR or any other sport for that matter. Being a fan and a customer are different though, as a customer if anything like the scenario you mentioned was to happen there would be legal action I could take and make things right. As a fan if I go to a race and I didn't like one of the rules I wouldn't be able to take NASCAR to court and change that rule.
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Skoalbandit33
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I wasn't thinking in the legal sense but instead supplying your consumers with something they want to partake of again and again. Thirty two years ago someone at Coca-Cola thought that fixing something that wasn't broken was a good idea and "New" Coke was born. I actually liked it but the rest of the country rebelled and demanded that the original brew be returned and it was returned post haste.
The only way I know how anyone feels about Nascar is from this forum as I no longer know any fans in the real world. The things I don't care for about Nascar are the use of a common car, mandating items such as gear ratios and other items that take latitude and creativity away from crew chiefs, inconsistent officiating and constant rule changes, free passes, wave arounds, bogus cautions, the chase, races tracks without character and those that accentuate the aero problem etc. etc. Other than the chase I don't think the fans here give a toss about the other things I don't care for so agreement among the fans would be challenging.
For several years now the car Nascar uses and many of the tracks it races on have been incompatible unless you like watching the leader check out in clean air. Instead of implementing gimmicks that don't work why not address the problem seriously and take a look at the racing configurations and the car and anything else that would lead to the most cost effective way of restoring a car and track that promote good racing?
gnomesayin
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He took over in 2003. As best I can tell, NASCAR was growing during the first couple years and then began its decline around 2006. In-person attendance may have started falling earlier, but those first 4-5 years of the big new TV agreement were successful years.
MRM
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Caution clocks are a dumb idea. It's NASCAR admitting the only good parts of a race are the pit stops and the restarts.
I was always against timed races because that's what separated NASCAR from the other big racing series. I'm still against it, but some races could stand to be shorter. But reduce the number of miles, not cap it with a time clock.
I was always against timed races because that's what separated NASCAR from the other big racing series. I'm still against it, but some races could stand to be shorter. But reduce the number of miles, not cap it with a time clock.
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Skoalbandit33
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Oh for sure as overall things were still going well despite some minor cracks here and there. It was around that time that people in my circle of influence started pulling back and withing 5 years of Brian's stewardship 75% were gone and by the time 10 years had past they were all gone. Obviously my experience is not scientific but in general it correlates with Nascar's downturn.