Enough Is Enough Full Season Championship.

FLRacingFan said:
Blaney was the first driver to win from beyond the top six seeds since playoff points were implemented, and even that required wins in two of the first three rounds, so they’ve made the format much more palatable. Quite frankly, it rewards regular season performance better than a good number of the other major American sports do at the moment. Still not ideal, but they eliminated the total lottery aspect that existed from 2014-2016. Newman shouldn’t have even sniffed the ‘14 championship.
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The last race of the season being a winner take all or who finishes the highest never sat well with me. I’d probably stomach this all better if the last 3 races were a “Championship Round”. I’d say just go back to Top 10 in points make a Chase For the Cup with a points reset around Darlington, add more emphasis on points for winning a race, let things play out as organically as possible with the 10 drivers…Simple. No more stages, constant points resets after each round, eliminations, playoff points, stage points and any other jargon needed.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
The last race of the season being a winner take all or who finishes the highest never sat well with me. I’d probably stomach this all better if the last 3 races were a “Championship Round”. I’d say just go back to Top 10 in points make a Chase For the Cup with a points reset around Darlington, add more emphasis on points for winning a race, let things play out as organically as possible with the 10 drivers…Simple. No more stages, constant points resets after each round, eliminations, playoff points, stage points and any other jargon needed.
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I have had to bend my brain and force myself to enjoy the regular season because it isn't too screwed up points wise, but the second part of the season when they start hyping the playoffs is another story.
I have never got over not being able to look at the standings and simply know what a driver needs to do to advance if possible to a higher or lower position.
60 points for winning all of the stages, the race, and a spot in the playoffs is another lottery gimmicky type of deal.

Winning the last lottery race leaves a bad taste in my mouth simply because by the time many of the 4 get there, not all of the 4 deserve to be there.
The points confusion that the playoff gimmicks create points wise, the playoffs completely obscure the fact that the best car has to race three lesser cars who have the opportunity to win the championship in one race.
 
StandOnIt said:
the playoffs completely obscure the fact that the best car has to race three lesser cars who have the opportunity to win the championship in one race.
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While the other 30-plus drivers have to tap dance around them to avoid being accused of interfering with the championship.
 
StandOnIt said:
I have had to bend my brain and force myself to enjoy the regular season because it isn't too screwed up points wise, but the second part of the season when they start hyping the playoffs is another story.
I have never got over not being able to look at the standings and simply know what a driver needs to do to advance if possible to a higher or lower position.
60 points for winning all of the stages, the race, and a spot in the playoffs is another lottery gimmicky type of deal.

Winning the last lottery race leaves a bad taste in my mouth simply because by the time many of the 4 get there, not all of the 4 deserve to be there.
The points confusion that the playoff gimmicks create points wise, the playoffs completely obscure the fact that the best car has to race three lesser cars who have the opportunity to win the championship in one race.
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Yeah, the simplicity of it all is what I miss as well. One of my favorite things to do as a kid was before Sunday’s race the Chicago Tribune Sports Section would have a little preview feature on that day’s race with the Winston Cup Points Standings located in the article. I would read that day’s preview while scanning the points thinking “hey that driver is moving up or hey that driver is having a few wood weeks or wow that guy is 5th, he’s having a good season”. Nostalgic I know, but just simple little things are lost now as Jeff Burton is screaming at me about playoff points from July on.
 
In Nascar one bad pit stop in the last lottery race, a flat, damage, back marker problems, you are pretty much done for the whole season. It just doesn't work even with all of the playoff points, stage points, winning the round whatever.
Just race the damn cars, best record ups and downs for the season wins the championship.
 
StandOnIt said:
So you are trying to say that 4 cars with varying records racing in the last race for the championship isn't as much of a lottery than the lottery it is?
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I don’t like the winner-take-all singular championship race, but the path to get there is much tougher than it previously was. There’s really no way a Newman ‘14 type would happen again because playoff points carry real significance. MTJ didn’t finish better than 17th in the first six playoff races last year and still made it to the round of 8 off the back of his playoff point accumulation. Newman was able to do what he did because he was effectively on even ground with guys like Gordon or Keselowski at the resets.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I don’t like the winner-take-all singular championship race, but the path to get there is much tougher than it previously was. There’s really no way a Newman ‘14 type would happen again because playoff points carry real significance. MTJ didn’t finish better than 17th in the first six playoff races last year and still made it to the round of 8 off the back of his playoff point accumulation. Newman was able to do what he did because he was effectively on even ground with guys like Gordon or Keselowski at the resets.
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Buddy, they can keep rigging it up and fudging here and there putting lipstick on a pig, but it is still a four car lottery for the win where the best car in the season has to race 3 others who weren't as good.
 
StandOnIt said:
Buddy, they can keep rigging it up and fudging here and there putting lipstick on a pig, but it is still a four car lottery for the win where the best car in the season has to race 3 others who weren't as good.
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I agree that, once you get there, anything and everything can happen in a one-race championship event. I’m saying that the path to get there has gotten tougher and the caliber of the final four you see each year since is much stronger than it previously was, which reduces the likelihood of a Mickey Mouse champion.
 
Jorge De Guzman said:
There are actually a group of fans that arnt as old as I am that only know the Chase and Playoff formats. The full season points system train left the station in 2003 and will never be becoming back. I really dont understand why folks clamor for it's return, its a humongous waste of time that accomplishes nothing.
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IMO the guy in the video was just throwing out ideas and opinions of how things could be. I’m not sure it accomplishes anything or even if it’s supposed to. We all know the the networks dictate to Nascar about how things will be so a season long championship will never happen again. I like hearing opposing viewpoints too.
 
StandOnIt said:
I have had to bend my brain and force myself to enjoy the regular season because it isn't too screwed up points wise, but the second part of the season when they start hyping the playoffs is another story.
I have never got over not being able to look at the standings and simply know what a driver needs to do to advance if possible to a higher or lower position.
60 points for winning all of the stages, the race, and a spot in the playoffs is another lottery gimmicky type of deal.

Winning the last lottery race leaves a bad taste in my mouth simply because by the time many of the 4 get there, not all of the 4 deserve to be there.
The points confusion that the playoff gimmicks create points wise, the playoffs completely obscure the fact that the best car has to race three lesser cars who have the opportunity to win the championship in one race.
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I just got off the phone with Jeff Burton and he was adamant that every point matters🤣
 
AlTerego said:
Many times drivers are in cars that cannot win so they scrape together the best finish possible. Most of the drivers know if they have a realistic shot at a win shortly after they unload.
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Of course but the ultimate goal of every racer is to be in a position to win. In any endeavor, you have to strive for the best possible outcome even if it’s not a win.
 
This is just my personal experience so take it for what it’s worth. A lot of people I used to go to races with stopped following after the implementation of the chase and the CoT finished the rest of them off.

My opinion is that NASCAR felt that running off the old fans wasn’t going to be a big deal because the wine & cheese crowd would make up for them. They did for a while until they took their wine & cheese elsewhere.

I had high hopes for Nascar when Jim France took over but he’s turned out to be and older version of his nephew. Despite everything I still watch cup whenever it is on and I enjoy most of the races.
 
AlTerego said:
This is just my personal experience so take it for what it’s worth. A lot of people I used to go to races with stopped following after the implementation of the chase and the CoT finished the rest of them off.

My opinion is that NASCAR felt that running off the old fans wasn’t going to be a big deal because the wine & cheese crowd would make up for them. They did for a while until they took their wine & cheese elsewhere.

I had high hopes for Nascar when Jim France took over but he’s turned out to be and older version of his nephew. Despite everything I still watch cup whenever it is on and I enjoy most of the races.
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A lot of things happened from 2006-2010 that caused NASCAR's rapid descent. To blame it on one thing is silly.

This all happened at around the same time:
  1. The Chase
  2. Car of Tomorrow
  3. Talladega Nights
  4. Super Jimmie's Reign of Terror
  5. The Great Recession
  6. The sudden decline in Fox's coverage.
  7. ESPN putting out the worst product imaginable for TV coverage.
  8. Tireghazi at the 2008 Brickyard 400
  9. Dale Earnhardt, Jr's long winless droughts
  10. Old school veteran drivers retiring.
 
AlTerego said:
This is just my personal experience so take it for what it’s worth. A lot of people I used to go to races with stopped following after the implementation of the chase and the CoT finished the rest of them off.

My opinion is that NASCAR felt that running off the old fans wasn’t going to be a big deal because the wine & cheese crowd would make up for them. They did for a while until they took their wine & cheese elsewhere.

I had high hopes for Nascar when Jim France took over but he’s turned out to be and older version of his nephew. Despite everything I still watch cup whenever it is on and I enjoy most of the races.
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Well Nascar was on the air waves saying that that had crossed a line, that was too far. IMO, this whole playoff format nonsense has crossed a line with Dillon. Band aid after band aid Nascar slaps on with no end in sight. I'm not going to quit watching either, but the corporation racing for the masses experiment isn't working.
 
The Nature Boy said:
Of course but the ultimate goal of every racer is to be in a position to win. In any endeavor, you have to strive for the best possible outcome even if it’s not a win.
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True, but I think Nascar has put so much emphasis on winning by fudging up the points system that this is what they got. Driver one Dillon, and also Logono who lost his mind over getting playoff points mostly. :idunno:
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
A lot of things happened from 2006-2010 that caused NASCAR's rapid descent. To blame it on one thing is silly.

This all happened at around the same time:
  1. The Chase
  2. Car of Tomorrow
  3. Talladega Nights
  4. Super Jimmie's Reign of Terror
  5. The Great Recession
  6. The sudden decline in Fox's coverage.
  7. ESPN putting out the worst product imaginable for TV coverage.
  8. Tireghazi at the 2008 Brickyard 400
  9. Dale Earnhardt, Jr's long winless droughts
  10. Old school veteran drivers retiring.
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My opinion was just based on the group I used to hang with. One thing I never figured out was why the recession would have negatively impacted broadcast ratings. I understand how it would impact race attendance but not in home viewing. If anything you’d think all broadcast ratings would increase because people stayed home instead of going out.

Jimmie’s excellence never bothered me as watching him and Chad perform was a treat. I doubt we’ll ever see sustained excellence like that again.

Brian France probably turned off a lot of people as running NASCAR may have been his birthright but he clearly hated the job and maybe even auto racing. I can’t remember the driver (Truex maybe) who was getting the championship trophy from Brian and it was awful. He looked coked up or maybe he was just drunk again. It was a bad look for sure.
 
AlTerego said:
One thing I never figured out was why the recession would have negatively impacted broadcast ratings.
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I think the quality of coverage negatively impacted TV ratings.

I'm shocked nobody's done a YouTube video of how bad the overall coverage was for those three years.

Fox's coverage declined rapidly from 2007-2009. That's when they started with the cartoon groundhog, the silly nicknames, and generally dumbing their coverage down. IMO, that had a lot to do with that Talladega Nights movie. I honestly think they catered to the casuals who didn't start watching NASCAR because of that movie.

Then there was ESPN and the plethora of broadcast controversies and issues. Missing race endings, races moving from ABC to ESPN2, missed restarts, a VERY uninspired booth, terrible broadcast gimmicks that took away from the broadcast (you can SEE THE AIR with ESPN Draft Track), Suzy Kolber and Brent Musburger. ESPN got A LOT better during that run, especially from 2011 on out when they finally put Allen Bestwick in his rightful place.

TNT was pretty terrible too. But they had a phenomenal pre-race show, had the candid commentary of Kyle Petty and Wally Dallenbach, and treated fans like adults. But TNT had a lot of issues too. (Those three races with Ralph Sheheen in the booth were amazing though, top-notch commentary booth.)
 
For anyone who even remotely thinks NASCAR would eliminate the playoffs...it ain't gonna happen. Actually I can see it further developing into more gimmicky competition to where each weeks race during the entire season will count towards some type of mini championship...
Don't forget we have this coming in 2025 and probably more in the future.

an in-season tournament for TNT Sports’ five-race segment of next year’s schedule has the promise of intrigue and subplots to the yearlong championship hunt. With 32 drivers in an elimination-style bracket format, it’s a form of the NCAA Tournament’s March Madness that has its own offshoot. Call it NASCAR’s Midsummer Madness.
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DIDIT said:
For anyone who even remotely thinks NASCAR would eliminate the playoffs...it ain't gonna happen. Actually I can see it further developing into more gimmicky competition to where each weeks race during the entire season will count towards some type of mini championship...
Don't forget we have this coming in 2025 and probably more in the future.
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A way will be eventually figured out how to tie that into a playoff berth or extra bonus playoff points. Rest assured.
 
DIDIT said:
For anyone who even remotely thinks NASCAR would eliminate the playoffs...it ain't gonna happen. Actually I can see it further developing into more gimmicky competition to where each weeks race during the entire season will count towards some type of mini championship...
Don't forget we have this coming in 2025 and probably more in the future.
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Anyone who is mad about the TNT In-Season Tournament thank James Dennis Hamlin for this experiment.

In all honesty, of all the gimmicks, this one doesn't bother me. The NBA, WNBA and College Basketball all have in-season tournaments. And NASCAR itself has had in-season tournaments of its own, though not as radical as this.
 
I have always railed against the Chase and Playoffs even though they produce some level of interest. As someone else said, racing is not a playoff sport. None of the other major sanctioning bodies have a playoff.

Last year, the Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series implemented something similar. The final race at Eldora was like NASCAR's race at Phoenix - highest finisher of the final 4 won the championship. The problem was the points leader had dominated the series. He won 17 or 18 races and had around a 500-point lead over second place. But he bent something on the car after hitting a rut and the car was not competitive. The driver that dominated the season was not the champion. A lot of fans were furious. That series has now made it a 3-race series. I'm not sure how that's going to work.

People may counter what happened there by saying players get hurt and it changes the team. True, but they can bring out a backup and you never know when somebody plays out of their mind (see Timmy Smith with the Redskins in 1987). In racing, they won't let you roll out a backup car during the race.

I'd still like to go back to a 36-race schedule and the most points determines the champion. But that ship has sailed.
 

The fact that NASCAR's IST is five races, altogether, and on one single network should help with that.

Regardless, thank Denny.
 
MRM said:
I have always railed against the Chase and Playoffs even though they produce some level of interest. As someone else said, racing is not a playoff sport. None of the other major sanctioning bodies have a playoff.

Last year, the Lucas Oil Late Model Dirt Series implemented something similar. The final race at Eldora was like NASCAR's race at Phoenix - highest finisher of the final 4 won the championship. The problem was the points leader had dominated the series. He won 17 or 18 races and had around a 500-point lead over second place. But he bent something on the car after hitting a rut and the car was not competitive. The driver that dominated the season was not the champion. A lot of fans were furious. That series has now made it a 3-race series. I'm not sure how that's going to work.

People may counter what happened there by saying players get hurt and it changes the team. True, but they can bring out a backup and you never know when somebody plays out of their mind (see Timmy Smith with the Redskins in 1987). In racing, they won't let you roll out a backup car during the race.

I'd still like to go back to a 36-race schedule and the most points determines the champion. But that ship has sailed.
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Exactly, we get that possibility every year now. Nascar has made the points system so complicated that almost no one can follow it unless a person is really paying attention. I had nothing against Blaney, but there was no way the 12 car had the best record last year.
 


The NASCAR tournament could be interesting. There’ll be a lot going on and it could get overwhelming on the broadcast side, but it might be a good way to liven up the summer lull before the stretch run to the playoff.
 
The "win and you're in" mantra is a good one and a way to generate interest. But it shouldn't apply to someone not in the top 30 in points. That person is taking a spot away from a person having a better season and more deserving.
 
MRM said:
The "win and you're in" mantra is a good one and a way to generate interest. But it shouldn't apply to someone not in the top 30 in points. That person is taking a spot away from a person having a better season and more deserving.
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Yeah but there are so many band aids on top of band aids for me anyway. With todays cars, the way they have engineered them to be built for close even racing. I don't see why they can't cut the crap and invent a fair points system that most of us drivers/fans can follow. All of this hype, smoke and mirrors isn't attracting a hoard of fans to Nascar.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
The important question is, who called whom?
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I’ll fess up. I butt dialed him
AndyMarquisLive said:
I think the quality of coverage negatively impacted TV ratings.

I'm shocked nobody's done a YouTube video of how bad the overall coverage was for those three years.

Fox's coverage declined rapidly from 2007-2009. That's when they started with the cartoon groundhog, the silly nicknames, and generally dumbing their coverage down. IMO, that had a lot to do with that Talladega Nights movie. I honestly think they catered to the casuals who didn't start watching NASCAR because of that movie.

Then there was ESPN and the plethora of broadcast controversies and issues. Missing race endings, races moving from ABC to ESPN2, missed restarts, a VERY uninspired booth, terrible broadcast gimmicks that took away from the broadcast (you can SEE THE AIR with ESPN Draft Track), Suzy Kolber and Brent Musburger. ESPN got A LOT better during that run, especially from 2011 on out when they finally put Allen Bestwick in his rightful place.

TNT was pretty terrible too. But they had a phenomenal pre-race show, had the candid commentary of Kyle Petty and Wally Dallenbach, and treated fans like adults. But TNT had a lot of issues too. (Those three races with Ralph Sheheen in the booth were amazing though, top-notch commentary booth.)
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I used to love the honesty of Kyle & Wally. They weren’t negative about Nascar but just told things how they were. You bring up good points about the TV coverage. My all time favorites were Ned, Bob & Benny. I thought they had fun but presented Nascar as a sport.

FOX cartooned things up and the coverage suffered. Then they seemed to go on some sort of austerity program and things really suffered. I thought hiring Harvick as a commentator was a great idea but Boyer makes things worse. He’s not funny or informative.

NBC’s coverage is better IMO but I’ve never warmed up to Letarte. Burton sounds like his privates are in a vise and it appears to grow tighter as the race goes up on.

Even after saying all that I’m really grateful. I have YouTube TV so all the Nascar programming is available in hi def and you can pause or rewind etc. Also it is very unlikely that I will ever be able to go to the track and see a race again. So even if the coverage is uneven and sometimes bad it’s my lifeline to the sport.
 
AlTerego said:
I’ll fess up. I butt dialed him


I used to love the honesty of Kyle & Wally. They weren’t negative about Nascar but just told things how they were. You bring up good points about the TV coverage. My all time favorites were Ned, Bob & Benny. I thought they had fun but presented Nascar as a sport.

FOX cartooned things up and the coverage suffered. Then they seemed to go on some sort of austerity program and things really suffered. I thought hiring Harvick as a commentator was a great idea but Boyer makes things worse. He’s not funny or informative.

NBC’s coverage is better IMO but I’ve never warmed up to Letarte. Burton sounds like his privates are in a vise and it appears to grow tighter as the race goes up on.

Even after saying all that I’m really grateful. I have YouTube TV so all the Nascar programming is available in hi def and you can pause or rewind etc. Also it is very unlikely that I will ever be able to go to the track and see a race again. So even if the coverage is uneven and sometimes bad it’s my lifeline to the sport.
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I blame Talladega Nights. I really do.

Everything got cheesed up after that movie came out.
 
The Nature Boy said:
If you had a nickel for every time a NASCAR fan called something a “gimmick” or “lottery,” you would have enough money to buy a charter.
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Maybe 2-3 charters! For whatever reasons the networks have demanded gimmicks & they write the checks so it’s their call.
 
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