Eric Jones to the #20 in 2018

rocket dawg said:
there is no way nascar goes to anyone's shop and see whats going on. Every 78 car can be a go jibbs team, how would anyone know? A single car team has enough room to be 2 teams over night. really, I mean really? and then dominate? is there a VIN on each car to track it? There is no way a 17th place car that switches brands goes from 17th to 1st. i aint buying it and neither do alot of people. "Association" my ass, explain association? explain any nascar decision in the last 10 years. Nascar does everything for ratings and sponsors and if they takes toyoders money ( which they love) just to get some new blood up front, well? 100% go jibbs racing and by the way I like Martin Truex, he's the only toyoder I like.
Click to expand...
your story might be more believable if you inserted Toyota instead of Gibbs, they are pumping 7.5 times more money into the series than the average sponsor. The 78 team is getting the "support". It appears to come with strings IMO. Barny Visser might lose support if he hires a driver on his own. Somebody like Haas says he probably will try to run 4 cars, he has the money and isn't beholding to anyone. Chevy will support 4 or 2 or whatever, they aren't into the hiring and firing like the Toyota bunch it looks like.
 
rocket dawg said:
there is no way nascar goes to anyone's shop and see whats going on. Every 78 car can be a go jibbs team, how would anyone know? A single car team has enough room to be 2 teams over night. really, I mean really? and then dominate? is there a VIN on each car to track it? There is no way a 17th place car that switches brands goes from 17th to 1st. i aint buying it and neither do alot of people. "Association" my ass, explain association? explain any nascar decision in the last 10 years. Nascar does everything for ratings and sponsors and if they takes toyoders money ( which they love) just to get some new blood up front, well? 100% go jibbs racing and by the way I like Martin Truex, he's the only toyoder I like.
Click to expand...
Its really hard to take anything you say seriously when you type things like"jibbs", and "toyoders", carry on with your hate for Toyota.
 
StandOnIt said:
your story might be more believable if you inserted Toyota instead of Gibbs, they are pumping 7.5 times more money into the series than the average sponsor. The 78 team is getting the "support". It appears to come with strings IMO. Barny Visser might lose support if he hires a driver on his own. Somebody like Haas says he probably will try to run 4 cars, he has the money and isn't beholding to anyone. Chevy will support 4 or 2 or whatever, they aren't into the hiring and firing like the Toyota bunch it looks like.
Click to expand...

IDK what Gene Haas "beholding" but I hope it belongs to him.

Does anyone know how much Toyota budgets for Nascar as opposed to GM and Ford? Does anyone know what the average sponsor spends on Nascar and does Toyota spend 7.5 times more? Does TRD call the shots as to which drivers are hired and fired. @Revman @Allenbaba if you have any info or links I could check out I would greatly appreciate it.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IDK what Gene Haas "beholding" but I hope it belongs to him.

Does anyone know how much Toyota budgets for Nascar as opposed to GM and Ford? Does anyone know what the average sponsor spends on Nascar and does Toyota spend 7.5 times more? Does TRD call the shots as to which drivers are hired and fired. @Revman @Allenbaba if you have any info or links I could check out I would greatly appreciate it.
Click to expand...

@Allenbaba would certainly know the numbers better than I, but David Wilson did say on Sirius/XM with Claire that the drivers are ultimately the team's business, but TRD does have input. IMO Toyota has invested in this series. I think that Roush's concern was that they would outspend everybody in terms of performance. Don't feel that this has happened. Toyota has always been very concerned about the perception of their participation.
 
Revman said:
@Allenbaba would certainly know the numbers better than I, but David Wilson did say on Sirius/XM with Claire that the drivers are ultimately the team's business, but TRD does have input. IMO Toyota has invested in this series. I think that Roush's concern was that they would outspend everybody in terms of performance. Don't feel that this has happened. Toyota has always been very concerned about the perception of their participation.
Click to expand...
I don't have numbers to prove it, but I believe Toyota does outspend GM and Ford, per car supported, and it worries me quite a bit. Toyota has expanded the role of the manufacturer by taking on several crucial functions that have traditionally been race team responsibilities... more of the nitty gritty design and engineering, young driver development programs, engine builder, subsidizing the truck team, and maybe more. These things shift costs from the teams to the manufacturer, and to the extent the teams pay Toyota for it, they are not paying full fare IMO. Jack Roush's early concerns have been proven valid at least partially.

This worries me because Nascar and the teams are becoming more and more dependent on the deep pockets of the manufacturers. In response to Toyota, Ford recently has increased their commitment and their expenditures, but for how long? And Chevrolet may be lagging behind, we don't really know. But if the Toyota business model costs more than the traditional Nascar model, that makes it easier for the factories to justify pulling out.

One thing I've learned from five decades of studying many forms of motor racing is this... the manufacturers *always* leave, sooner or later. We can't blame that on Toyota, but altering the business model to shift costs to the factories does hasten the day of reckoning, I believe.

The party is in full swing now, but when it ends the hangover will be severe and long lasting. If Ford leaves, that will make it easier for Chevy to leave, and vice versa. If history repeats, Toyota will leave Nascar like the Colts left Baltimore. That's just the way companies work, including Toyota and all the others.

And meanwhile, Nascar continues to rake in huge profits, ISC and SMI continue to rake in high profits as well, while the manufacturers and the race teams are getting squeezed tighter and tighter. That part ain't pretty.
 
I think Toyota just made the manufactures spending more controlled. Ford wrote checks to Roush/Yates for the engine development and really have no asset because of it. GM has HMS and RCR making engines but have no control of either. Yes Toyota has funds invested but they also control and can market the engines. In the long run all manufacturers have their brand on track but who gets most bang for their buck?
 
So far it sounds like the general feeling is that Toyota pours more resources into Nascar and demands more control over its teams(s) but no one can quantify this. The way I see it is if a manufacturer or sponsors want to outspend others then it is up to the others to either up their participation, make do with what they have or walk away.

As @Allenbaba said the problem is not a lack of sponsorship in Nascar more than it is the teams asks are far too high and not in line with what the market will currently bear. If the sponsors don't feel they can obtain a reasonable ROI they will remain on the sidelines and if Nascar's manufacturers feel the same way then they will opt out as well.

Provide a product or service people wish to purchase or consume and none of this ever becomes a problem.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I don't have numbers to prove it, but I believe Toyota does outspend GM and Ford, per car supported, and it worries me quite a bit. Toyota has expanded the role of the manufacturer by taking on several crucial functions that have traditionally been race team responsibilities... more of the nitty gritty design and engineering, young driver development programs, engine builder, subsidizing the truck team, and maybe more. These things shift costs from the teams to the manufacturer, and to the extent the teams pay Toyota for it, they are not paying full fare IMO. Jack Roush's early concerns have been proven valid at least partially.

This worries me because Nascar and the teams are becoming more and more dependent on the deep pockets of the manufacturers. In response to Toyota, Ford recently has increased their commitment and their expenditures, but for how long? And Chevrolet may be lagging behind, we don't really know. But if the Toyota business model costs more than the traditional Nascar model, that makes it easier for the factories to justify pulling out.

One thing I've learned from five decades of studying many forms of motor racing is this... the manufacturers *always* leave, sooner or later. We can't blame that on Toyota, but altering the business model to shift costs to the factories does hasten the day of reckoning, I believe.

The party is in full swing now, but when it ends the hangover will be severe and long lasting. If Ford leaves, that will make it easier for Chevy to leave, and vice versa. If history repeats, Toyota will leave Nascar like the Colts left Baltimore. That's just the way companies work, including Toyota and all the others.

And meanwhile, Nascar continues to rake in huge profits, ISC and SMI continue to rake in high profits as well, while the manufacturers and the race teams are getting squeezed tighter and tighter. That part ain't pretty.
Click to expand...
 
jws926 said:
Its really hard to take anything you say seriously when you type things like"jibbs", and "toyoders", carry on with your hate for Toyota.
Click to expand...
I dont mind "G" ibbs, its the 18 and 11 i have no use for. They have the personality of a grapefruit.
 
rocket dawg said:
yeah right
Click to expand...
It's true. Anybody involved in racing knows this. The chassis identification code. This one shows to be a kubu car from Sept. 2008 chassis # 600

3hBkaPM.jpg
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
IDK what Gene Haas "beholding" but I hope it belongs to him.

Does anyone know how much Toyota budgets for Nascar as opposed to GM and Ford? Does anyone know what the average sponsor spends on Nascar and does Toyota spend 7.5 times more? Does TRD call the shots as to which drivers are hired and fired. @Revman @Allenbaba if you have any info or links I could check out I would greatly appreciate it.
Click to expand...
I have no idea what the TRD numbers are. They seem to be a bit liquid (meaning sometimes they have to backstop a car, sometimes they decide not to). TRD has always believed in quality over quantity, so they'd rather spend more on fewer cars than the same amount they'd spend across many cars (Chevy). TRD does not call the shots on driver hires and fires. Like any good relationship, I'm sure a team would check with them first (which they do). And like any good relationship, I'm sure the teams weigh TRD's opinion heavily (which they do). But ultimately the team has the final say on their lineup. Without getting into specifics, if TRD did call all the shots, the Toyota driver lineups would look a bit different (both today and in the past). But the driver is ultimately up to the team, not them.
 
Allenbaba said:
I have no idea what the TRD numbers are. They seem to be a bit liquid (meaning sometimes they have to backstop a car, sometimes they decide not to). TRD has always believed in quality over quantity, so they'd rather spend more on fewer cars than the same amount they'd spend across many cars (Chevy). TRD does not call the shots on driver hires and fires. Like any good relationship, I'm sure a team would check with them first (which they do). And like any good relationship, I'm sure the teams weigh TRD's opinion heavily (which they do). But ultimately the team has the final say on their lineup. Without getting into specifics, if TRD did call all the shots, the Toyota driver lineups would look a bit different (both today and in the past). But the driver is ultimately up to the team, not them.
Click to expand...

I appreciate you taking the time and filling me in on what you know.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I don't have numbers to prove it, but I believe Toyota does outspend GM and Ford, per car supported, and it worries me quite a bit. Toyota has expanded the role of the manufacturer by taking on several crucial functions that have traditionally been race team responsibilities... more of the nitty gritty design and engineering, young driver development programs, engine builder, subsidizing the truck team, and maybe more. These things shift costs from the teams to the manufacturer, and to the extent the teams pay Toyota for it, they are not paying full fare IMO. Jack Roush's early concerns have been proven valid at least partially.

This worries me because Nascar and the teams are becoming more and more dependent on the deep pockets of the manufacturers. In response to Toyota, Ford recently has increased their commitment and their expenditures, but for how long? And Chevrolet may be lagging behind, we don't really know. But if the Toyota business model costs more than the traditional Nascar model, that makes it easier for the factories to justify pulling out.

One thing I've learned from five decades of studying many forms of motor racing is this... the manufacturers *always* leave, sooner or later. We can't blame that on Toyota, but altering the business model to shift costs to the factories does hasten the day of reckoning, I believe.

The party is in full swing now, but when it ends the hangover will be severe and long lasting. If Ford leaves, that will make it easier for Chevy to leave, and vice versa. If history repeats, Toyota will leave Nascar like the Colts left Baltimore. That's just the way companies work, including Toyota and all the others.

And meanwhile, Nascar continues to rake in huge profits, ISC and SMI continue to rake in high profits as well, while the manufacturers and the race teams are getting squeezed tighter and tighter. That part ain't pretty.
Click to expand...

This post is 100% exceptional. I agree. Originally, TRD wanted JGR to be the Toyota builder. That went to crap in 2012 as TRD took over when JGR was struggling with reliability. Originally, TRD didn't want to be in the driver development business, but then Larson got away. Now the program is at full song. Connected to the young talent is a place for them to hone their skills. Toyota subsidizes the Truck program as you pointed out. I am not sure that this all was part of the original business plan, but I have to agree with you that some of what Jack worried about is coming true. However, the way it all came to be was due to the bottom falling out of NASCAR, and Toyota's complete commitment to the series. They weren't just going to sit there, and watch it die. The other way to look at it is that Chevy and Ford had opportunities to fill in the gap, and again, as you stated, Ford is just coming to the part. IMO (and watch @StandOnIt crap himself on this), had Chevy and Ford upped their investment, there would have been less for Toyota to fill in....but those guys were trying to stay alive. I profoundly believe that Toyota wants what is best for the series. I profoundly believe that they are supporting the series because they feel that there is a need. I profoundly believe that they want other manufacturers to step up as well. Having said all of that, we need to be mindful of the sins of the Champ Car Series and manufacturer involvement which spiraled completely out of control. An interesting time indeed....
 
Revman said:
This post is 100% exceptional. I agree. Originally, TRD wanted JGR to be the Toyota builder. That went to crap in 2012 as TRD took over when JGR was struggling with reliability. Originally, TRD didn't want to be in the driver development business, but then Larson got away. Now the program is at full song. Connected to the young talent is a place for them to hone their skills. Toyota subsidizes the Truck program as you pointed out. I am not sure that this all was part of the original business plan, but I have to agree with you that some of what Jack worried about is coming true. However, the way it all came to be was due to the bottom falling out of NASCAR, and Toyota's complete commitment to the series. They weren't just going to sit there, and watch it die. The other way to look at it is that Chevy and Ford had opportunities to fill in the gap, and again, as you stated, Ford is just coming to the part. IMO (and watch @StandOnIt crap himself on this), had Chevy and Ford upped their investment, there would have been less for Toyota to fill in....but those guys were trying to stay alive. I profoundly believe that Toyota wants what is best for the series. I profoundly believe that they are supporting the series because they feel that there is a need. I profoundly believe that they want other manufacturers to step up as well. Having said all of that, we need to be mindful of the sins of the Champ Car Series and manufacturer involvement which spiraled completely out of control. An interesting time indeed....
Click to expand...

If I am Toyota and I am watching my flagship team build grenade motor after grenade motor I am having a come to Jesus meeting with someone. I completely agree with @Allenbaba about Toyota favoring quality over quantity as it make sense to me to pick 2 teams with 5-7 cars to concentrate on and leave the rest to the others.

I think it is in everyone's best interest, from the manufacturers, track promoters, teams and sponsors, to do what is in the best interest of the series.
 
Revman said:
This post is 100% exceptional. I agree. Originally, TRD wanted JGR to be the Toyota builder. That went to crap in 2012 as TRD took over when JGR was struggling with reliability. Originally, TRD didn't want to be in the driver development business, but then Larson got away. Now the program is at full song. Connected to the young talent is a place for them to hone their skills. Toyota subsidizes the Truck program as you pointed out. I am not sure that this all was part of the original business plan, but I have to agree with you that some of what Jack worried about is coming true. However, the way it all came to be was due to the bottom falling out of NASCAR, and Toyota's complete commitment to the series. They weren't just going to sit there, and watch it die. The other way to look at it is that Chevy and Ford had opportunities to fill in the gap, and again, as you stated, Ford is just coming to the part. IMO (and watch @StandOnIt crap himself on this), had Chevy and Ford upped their investment, there would have been less for Toyota to fill in....but those guys were trying to stay alive. I profoundly believe that Toyota wants what is best for the series. I profoundly believe that they are supporting the series because they feel that there is a need. I profoundly believe that they want other manufacturers to step up as well. Having said all of that, we need to be mindful of the sins of the Champ Car Series and manufacturer involvement which spiraled completely out of control. An interesting time indeed....
Click to expand...
I'll just correct the first part..

Gibbs wasn't having problems TRD took it away from him 2013 and THEY were having problems. They, Toyota changed the Racing guy out with Wilson in 2014. there it is. It's not a fairy tale


But the manufacturer-supported engine builder for Joe Gibbs Racing and Michael Waltrip Racing seems to have trouble come in bunches.
Gibbs drivers Matt Kenseth and Kyle Busch both had engine failures at Daytona, and then Toyota had two engines that needed to be replaced the following weekend at Phoenix (although one was an engine tuner error) prior to the race.
After the first two weeks of hiccups, it was clear sailing for the next few months, except for Clint Bowyer blowing an engine at California.

But at Charlotte last week, a valve spring knocked Kyle Busch out of the race and left him with a 38th-place finish.

Then at Dover Sunday, Kenseth had a valve spring failure. So did MWR’s Martin Truex Jr. Truex finished 38th and Kenseth 40th.

“Obviously we’re both the same engine manufacturer,” said Truex, who fell out of the top 10 in points after the engine failure. “It’s pretty disappointing.”

Joe Gibbs Racing owner Joe Gibbs said his teams would work with TRD, which took over engine-building duties for JGR and MWR this year.


http://www.sportingnews.com/nascar/...-dover-results-trd-joe-gibbs-racing-michael-w
 
StandOnIt said:
Gibbs wasn't having problems TRD took it away from him 2013 and THEY were having problems.
Click to expand...

Yeah, engines were blown right and left in 2013, but the JGR shop was struggling in 2011. At the end of that year, that is when the deal was done. TRD did not take anything from Gibbs. You think they would risk pissing out their flagship team? Gibbs came to TRD for help.
 
Revman said:
Yeah, engines were blown right and left in 2013, but the JGR shop was struggling in 2011. At the end of that year, that is when the deal was done. TRD did not take anything from Gibbs. You think they would risk pissing out their flagship team? Gibbs came to TRD for help.
Click to expand...
It will give TRD time to get it right. TRD, still trying to prove its worth to JGR and its fans, has had much better performance than the perception. If it could just time its engine problems with cars that don’t run well, the issues wouldn’t be so pronounced.
 
StandOnIt said:
It will give TRD time to get it right. TRD, still trying to prove its worth to JGR and its fans, has had much better performance than the perception. If it could just time its engine problems with cars that don’t run well, the issues wouldn’t be so pronounced.
Click to expand...

2015--Driver's Championship
2016--Manufacturers Championship

I don't like bait.
 
Skoalbandit33 said:
Some folks must not have realized that the plan all along was to have Erik Jones race with FRR short term prior to joining JGR. I never would have guessed that an organization allowing a driver's contract to expire would have turned into an indictment of the team, owner and manufacturer.
Click to expand...

1. Shocked that so many are surprised by this.
2. Shocked that so many think this is a big JGR screw job. This is big time motorsports. Big boy pants required.
 
Revman said:
1. Shocked that so many are surprised by this.
2. Shocked that so many think this is a big JGR screw job. This is big time motorsports. Big boy pants required.
Click to expand...

Are people not aware of the immense talent that Eric Jones is? why in the world would he keep Matt Kenseth over Eric Jones? honestly I'm also amazed
 
Watch your back.;) Kyle's finding new talent days might be over

“If you look at it now, that’s me, Denny, Daniel and Erik, so either myself or Denny are the next two out, if I continue to feed them through KBM as quickly as I have been, so we’re watching our backs,” Busch quipped. “That’s for sure.”
 
StandOnIt said:
Watch your back.;)

“If you look at it now, that’s me, Denny, Daniel and Erik, so either myself or Denny are the next two out, if I continue to feed them through KBM as quickly as I have been, so we’re watching our backs,” Busch quipped. “That’s for sure.”
Click to expand...

I mean he certainly doesn't think that his time at jgr could be over anytime soon? I really couldn't see that happening.
 
Fordracing7 said:
I mean he certainly doesn't think that his time at jgr could be over anytime soon? I really couldn't see that happening.
Click to expand...
you interpret it any way you like. Watching what happened to Kenseth is well documented, Gibbs knew he was gone but was telling the world Kenseth had a job.
 
Sometimes business sucks. Sometimes you have to make very difficult decisions.
But for the good of your team and your entire organization , you must make that hard decision.
People like Lombardi and Belichick have shown us that it is better to let that aging star go one year too soon rather than one year too late.
 
Fordracing7 said:
I mean he certainly doesn't think that his time at jgr could be over anytime soon? I really couldn't see that happening.
Click to expand...

Unless something totally unforeseen happened you would have to think Kyle has at least another 6 years with JGR.
 
Taco said:
IMO, old man Jibbs is a cut throat SOB. He smiles in public, but clubs baby Seals when no one is watching.
Click to expand...

I heard he once kicked the cane out from an old lady crossing the street and stole her purse.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom