Hamlin and Busch Diqualified?

So per Bob Pockgrass on Twitter:

”After look at car at R&D, Michael McDowell has been docked 100 driver pts (and 100 owner pts) & 10 playoff points & crew chief Blake Harris suspended 4 races & fined $100K for altering seams/body filler. No additional penalties to 11/18 and no issues with the 47 at R&D center.”

So…the tape was a modification to the body but no penalties or fines for the golden boys, Toyota or the great Gibbs. Yet other alterations for the 34 team get an L2 penalty…..😡.

NASCAR will forever be ”wrestling on wheels”.
 
Daytripper said:
Kinda ridiculous that the 11and 18 didn't receive any further penalties. Not surprising though, typical nascar bull****.
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Not really, I think NASCAR has set a solid system in place.

You get caught at the track, you are DQ'ed, which is enough in this case. I was expecting more, but I think a DQ is plenty harsh enough for post-race infractions. Now, if you get caught at the R&D Center, that's a worst case scenario. Now you get the whole shabang because they are tearing down the cars completely.

To call this bias or BS is pretty silly. FRM got caught after the race which is even worse than getting caught at the racetrack. CC gets a nasty fine plus a four race suspension and you basically double the loss of points lost. Same reason why Brad was killed post Daytona.

The concept is still the same, don't get caught messing with this car.
 
Kiante said:
Not really, I think NASCAR has set a solid system in place.

You get caught at the track, you are DQ'ed, which is enough in this case. I was expecting more, but I think a DQ is plenty harsh enough for post-race infractions. Now, if you get caught at the R&D Center, that's a worst case scenario. Now you get the whole shabang because they are tearing down the cars completely.

To call this bias or BS is pretty silly. FRM got caught after the race which is even worse than getting caught at the racetrack. CC gets a nasty fine plus a four race suspension and you basically double the loss of points lost. Same reason why Brad was killed post Daytona.

The concept is still the same, don't get caught messing with this car.
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Period!
 
Kiante said:
Not really, I think NASCAR has set a solid system in place.

You get caught at the track, you are DQ'ed, which is enough in this case. I was expecting more, but I think a DQ is plenty harsh enough for post-race infractions. Now, if you get caught at the R&D Center, that's a worst case scenario. Now you get the whole shabang because they are tearing down the cars completely.

To call this bias or BS is pretty silly. FRM got caught after the race which is even worse than getting caught at the racetrack. CC gets a nasty fine plus a four race suspension and you basically double the loss of points lost. Same reason why Brad was killed post Daytona.

The concept is still the same, don't get caught messing with this car.
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Why does it matter where you get caught? That's where the bull**** is. I'm not saying it's biased, just that it's bull****.
 
Indeed, my point is that the JGR teams violated their car no less than what the 34 did…it was a modification to a factory part. Should not matter if the R&D found nothing more than what was confirmed. Yes a DQ of the race contains it’s own penalties, but where is the penalty to the team going forward? ZERO…not right and not fair. FRM loses crew chief for 4 races…who’s parked for the 11 & 18? NOBODY.

I guess Keebler elves put that tape on prior to the wrap…
 
Daytripper said:
Why does it matter where you get caught? That's where the bull**** is. I'm not saying it's biased, just that it's bull****.
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The R&D center can go further in depth and find offputting issues.

End of race inspection is not as scrupulous as the R&D center where they literally breakdown each randomly selected car one by one. Thus why the heavy penalty was enforced on the 34 because getting caught by the techs at the R&D center is the worst thing smoking right. Then it leads to the decision of what L1 to L6 penalty someone will receieve.

The end of race inspection is heavy in its own right as @Spotter22 described.

No points, DQ, and no pay. That's nasty in itself not receving prize money.

Why make a backwards business decsion for a team when not getting paid is bad enough? Charging them additional money would be horrible. However, if JGR did decide to protest the penalty, then that would open a different can of worms.
 
Kiante said:
The R&D center can go further in depth and find offputting issues.

End of race inspection is not as scrupulous as the R&D center where they literally breakdown each randomly selected car one by one. Thus why the heavy penalty was enforced on the 34 because getting caught by the techs at the R&D center is the worst thing smoking right. Then it leads to the decision of what L1 to L6 penalty someone will receieve.

The end of race inspection is heavy in its own right as @Spotter22 described.

No points, DQ, and no pay. That's nasty in itself not receving prize money.
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Again, I say somebody should be sitting out races as a result on both teams. The punishment in that regard is NOT equal.
 
Conover said:
Again, I say somebody should be sitting out races as a result on both teams. The punishment in that regard is NOT equal.
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It is equal.

Why should someone sit out if it was something was already dealt with? Those teams did not get paid for the weekend, does anybody realize how bad that is? Now, if JGR protested the penalty that would lead to those additional types of penalties given to the 34 team.

NASCAR basically gives the option to take a loss at the track or of you want to go further down the line, they will do that. However, that comes a cost of more than the post race penalties. JGR could say, "We will protest this decision."

If they do and lose the case, it will be the post race penalties PLUS additional damage done with losing the CC, fines, losing owners points and playoff points, etc.

This is the reason why JGR took the DQs on the chin, it was not worth protesting and compounding the issue.
 
I'm sorry, but drawing a distinction between infractions caught at the track and infractions caught at the R&D center is absurd and silly. I have been following this sport for more than forty years and can't explain the logic of it, imagine how it looks to the fans that don't obsess over every nut and bolt on the car the way many of us here do. NASCAR is it's own worst enemy with their inconsistent and often incoherent race control and enforcement of the rules. This stuff is not nearly as hard as they make it seem most of the time. The penalty for the 34 should have been EXACTLY the same as the 11 and 18, whether that is merely a Disqualification or that plus the money and point and suspension fines. Transparency and consistency would go a LONG way towards eliminating many of the knocks on this sport.
 
Kiante said:
It is equal.

Why should someone sit out if it was something was already dealt with? Those teams did not get paid for the weekend, does anybody realize how bad that is? Now, if JGR protested the penalty that would lead to those additional types of penalties given to the 34 team.

NASCAR basically gives the option to take a loss at the track or of you want to go further down the line, they will do that. However, that comes a cost of more than the post race penalties. JGR could say, "We will protest this decision."

If they do and lose the case, it will be the post race penalties PLUS additional damage done with losing the CC, fines, losing owners points and playoff points, etc.

This is the reason why JGR took the DQs on the chin, it was not worth protesting and compounding the issue.
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I am only aware of one or two instances in NASCAR history where somebody appealed a penalty and were assessed a stiffer penalty.
 
I’m aware. I didn’t comment on the equity of the situation. Now that we’re here, why would anyone be outraged by this kind of inconsistency?

It’s a feature, not a bug. 😇
 
Kiante said:
Like talking to brick walls.
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I rarely have reason to disagree with you, especially to take @Formerjackman's side.

Both teams were messing with standard body parts. Assuming the cited infractions are the same (and I admit I haven't checked), why should the punishment differ based on how you were caught?

"Your honor, the accused was caught with an ounce of pot by the local deputy sheriff. The prosecution suggest 30 days. The other suspect was caught with an ounce by a special FBI surveillance team. We suggest 8 to 10 years."

For the record, I'm not even suggesting JGR got off lighter because they're a large team or because Toyota is involved.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I rarely have reason to disagree with you, especially to take @Formerjackman's side.

Both teams were messing with standard body parts. Assuming the cited infractions are the same (and I admit I haven't checked), why should the punishment differ based on how you were caught?

"Your honor, the accused was caught with an ounce of pot by the local deputy sheriff. The prosecution suggest 30 days. The other suspect was caught with an ounce by a special FBI surveillance team. We suggest 8 to 10 years."

For the record, I'm not even suggesting JGR got off lighter because they're a large team or because Toyota is involved.
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Well, there's a backhanded compliment if I've ever gotten one....... :)
 
Formerjackman said:
I'm sorry, but drawing a distinction between infractions caught at the track and infractions caught at the R&D center is absurd and silly. I have been following this sport for more than forty years and can't explain the logic of it, imagine how it looks to the fans that don't obsess over every nut and bolt on the car the way many of us here do. NASCAR is it's own worst enemy with their inconsistent and often incoherent race control and enforcement of the rules. This stuff is not nearly as hard as they make it seem most of the time. The penalty for the 34 should have been EXACTLY the same as the 11 and 18, whether that is merely a Disqualification or that plus the money and point and suspension fines. Transparency and consistency would go a LONG way towards eliminating many of the knocks on this sport.
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Let me help you out, they were NOT exactly the same. The 11 and 18 were L-1 and the 34 was an L-2. Because YOU think they are the same is irrelevant because they know 100% more about the infraction then you. Its pretty simple.
 
Kiante said:
It's like lying and getting caught later on.

The reprecussions are usually worse in that circumstance.
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I'm sorry, but in the context of sports and competition, I don't think that argument holds even a drop of water. Golf is the ONLY sport I know of where players self report rules infractions. Was the 34 supposed to say "Hey, we ran the race, but we cheated, so just go ahead and penalize us"? If the hated Patriots win the Super Bowl on the last play of the game but there was an uncalled hold or pass intereference, do they they just forfeit the voluntarily game? People get WAY too much wound up over these infractions. EVERY team does it to some extent, there are no 100% legal cars, and you pay your money and you take your chances. This time three teams got caught. Big hairy deal. Take your penalty and move on. All I am asking for is the enforcement and the punishment to be consistent.
 
Spotter22 said:
Let me help you out, they were NOT exactly the same. The 11 and 18 were L-1 and the 34 was an L-2. Because YOU think they are the same is irrelevant because they know 100% more about the infraction then you. Its pretty simple.
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The L1 and L2 is a NASCAR distinction to justify their reasoning for making crap up on the fly, just like their rules by the minute loose tire in the pit calls and driving backwards down pit road calls. . The teams were basically trying to accomplish the same things for the same reasons. The rest is just minutiae.
 
Formerjackman said:
The L1 and L2 is a NASCAR distinction to justify their reasoning for making crap up on the fly, just like their rules by the minute loose tire in the pit calls and driving backwards down pit road calls. . The teams were basically trying to accomplish the same things for the same reasons. The rest is just minutiae.
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Thats nothing but your uninformed opinion, it has no factual basis because you do not know what evidence goes into making the final decision.
 
Spotter22 said:
The 11 and 18 were L-1 and the 34 was an L-2.
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As you point out, this would explain the substantial difference in the penalties... if it's true. Nascar published official reports that specify L-2 for Keselowski and also for McDowell, but I can't find a Nascar statement or report that Hamlin and Busch were L-1.

Where did you see a Nascar ruling or penalty report that these were indeed L-1?
 
Formerjackman said:
Panels that are not supposed to be modified in ANY way were modified. What more do you REALLY need to know?
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Its not what I need to know, its what you dont know. The Rules Committee had a reason why they wrote the penalties the way they are written and enforced and obviously they dont see it your way because you dont have their info. Unless you were on the Tech line at the track and at the tear down at the R&D building you dont know jack.
 
LewTheShoe said:
As you point out, this would explain the substantial difference in the penalties... if it's true. Nascar published official reports that specify L-2 for Keselowski and also for McDowell, but I can't find a Nascar statement or report that Hamlin and Busch were L-1.

Where did you see a Nascar ruling or penalty report that these were indeed L-1?
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I heard it on NASCAR radio during a discussion. I cant find it in print either
 
Kiante said:
It is equal.

Why should someone sit out if it was something was already dealt with? Those teams did not get paid for the weekend, does anybody realize how bad that is? Now, if JGR protested the penalty that would lead to those additional types of penalties given to the 34 team.

NASCAR basically gives the option to take a loss at the track or of you want to go further down the line, they will do that. However, that comes a cost of more than the post race penalties. JGR could say, "We will protest this decision."

If they do and lose the case, it will be the post race penalties PLUS additional damage done with losing the CC, fines, losing owners points and playoff points, etc.

This is the reason why JGR took the DQs on the chin, it was not worth protesting and compounding the issue.
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So front row is appealing their penalty, according to your logic they are going to get more penalties if they don't win the appeal.
 
Daytripper said:
So front row is appealing their penalty, according to your logic they are going to get more penalties if they don't win the appeal.
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Looking back, I may have mispoke on that. At worst it the penalties addressed will be upheld.

I'd have to talk to my peoples again to get the whole breakdown, my apologies on that.🤦🏾‍♂️
 
So depending on WHEN/WHERE it’s discovered after the race dictates how punishment is enforced or the degree of punishment? I can’t justify it unless I’m JGR fan or their drivers. But that’s just me. Seems pick and choosey AND inconsistent to me. But I’m just a fan.
 
as quoted from JGR director of competition:

“The added pieces were 2 inches wide and 5½ inches long with a thickness of 0.012 inches and installed under the wrap. This change in our build process was not properly vetted within our organization and we recognize it is against NASCAR’s rules."
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Thats the thickness of 3 sheets of standard copier paper, so still pretty thin. If its that important, how about next time we slap a samesize piece
of bearbond on during a pit stop to fix a scratch and call it a day.
 
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