Is Hendrick Motorsports no longer a Super Team?

Seeing how there was only one Chevy in the top 10, I think its more of the car.

I agree HMS is extremely young now, but Bowman, Byron, and Elliott are all pretty smart guys when it comes to feedback. Bowman especially since he was testing a ton for Chevy and HMS, but I'm at the point where its just the car has been a wash in its first season.

I get it, Larson is a great driver, but is his feedback that good? Or are the cars that good off of the truck? I think its the latter, but I'm unsure at this point. HMS is not terrible, but extremely mediocre for them. Bowman, Elliott, and Johnson looked decent. They just lack outright speed because Gustafson has said of many of races, that HMS is consistent, just not fast. A driver can only give so much feedback when it comes working on the car on track if its not great coming from the shop.
 
Harvick talked last week about the switch to the Ford from Chevy. Sound easy right just change the front sheet metal. The motor didn't fit the frames they had, so they had to cut the fronts off of all their pre built frames. Then the steering gear they had didn't fit so they had to re build all of that, and then the balance was different and none of their previous notebooks on track data wasn't any good and they had to start from scratch. I can see where the car can be slowing them down and they don't have much in common with the old car, but I think it is also the driver team to some extent.
 
LJ7201 said:
We saw what happened when Danica was replaced by Armilrola right? SHR got faster as a whole, and Harvick said the notes and info from the whole team was better this year, which led to their improved performance. These days it takes 4 knowledgeable and experienced drivers giving good feedback, which HMS and HMS fans such as myself took for granted.

Byron's feedback and info affects Johnson's car and vice versa, and if it doesn't then they're behind in communication.
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Yeah, but the SHR crew chiefs realized the data from the #10 wasn't worth much. I would think by now Chad would recognize info that wouldn't help him.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, but the SHR crew chiefs realized the data from the #10 wasn't worth much. I would think by now Chad would recognize info that wouldn't help him.
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If Chad or any of the Hendrick teams don't have any decent race data worth a darn to start with, they have to race the cars at tracks first and then compare data. In the cup series, just being close gets you in the top 20's if you are lucky. They can tape them up and qualify decent, but in race trim they look pretty bad and hardly get better as the race wears on for the most part.
 
ok people,hendick also has a lot of new younger engineers just of of collage with no race experience.they will get better.larson is a driver that can win(and does in anything)just wait till the cars are better.
 
Formerjackman said:
I keep hammering on this repeatedly, but nobody seems to want to hear it. These four cars seem to qualify, race and finish almost on top of each other darn near every week. I don't think it's even debatable that Bowman has a lot more experience than Byron, Elliott is more talented than Bowman, and Johnson is way better than all three teammates. That tells me that most likely, at least three if not all four are getting close to the most these cars have to offer each week, and that isn't very much. My tractor goes 11 MPH flat out, and it wouldn't matter if Kyle Busch or Cory Lajoie was driving it, it ain't going any faster. If this were strictly a talent or feedback issue, I think we'd see a MUCH bigger spread in relative performance between the cars, but we don't. I think they're just maxed out with what they have to work with. Also, if you have been paying the kind of attention I pay to this team, this problem didn't start with the Camaro, and it didn't start with Byron and Bowman showing up. This gradual decline has been going on for quite some time, and Johnson's 7th championship might have temporarily masked the issue, but was there before then. I have been distressed about the overall performance of the HMS teams since Harvick came to SHR and whipped them with their own equipment.
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I have been saying the same thing. the cars all go about the same speed and even run about the same on the track. The problem isn't so much just HMS the problem is there is only 3 cars capable of winning outright on speed alone. I think they have found something the rest of the field does not have. When harry gant won 4 races in a row with a cambered rear end, did that mean the rest of the cars they raced against sucked? No, it just meant they had an advantage no one else had. I see this the same way. The interesting thing with the 78 car is they are fast on EVERY track. Heck they are fast even on road courses. in the recent past you would see certain teams be fast at short tracks or on certain tracks. this year we only see 3 cars really contending.

you can't say that HMS is the petty enterprises or junior johnsons and associates of the past. Those teams can trace their problems back to sponsorship drying up. HMS is one of the most well funded teams in the sport right now. The cars are just flat out terrible. they need to do something, the entire season is slipping away. They were terrible last year as well so its not all just a camaro problem.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Yeah, but the SHR crew chiefs realized the data from the #10 wasn't worth much. I would think by now Chad would recognize info that wouldn't help him.
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Exactly. Armilrola giving feedback is remarkably better than data that isnt of much use.
 
Revman said:
You make great points, but it is really hard for me to believe that Chevy has missed it this badly. ....the other issue is the Larson factor. Where is his speed coming from. He is driving your tractor 75 mph? Am I right?
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Rev, forget about Chevy, forget about the Camaro, forget about Larson. It's my contention this is a Hendrick chassis issue first and foremost, and thus effects Hendrick and Hendrick only. I'm not saying the new car body and the new rules and the new drivers don't make the issue more acute, but those are at most contributors to the problem, not the cause. The root of the problem predates ALL of these things. Heck, five YEARS ago, SHR was getting more out of the HMS equipment than HMS was. THAT my friend is the source of the problem.
 
Formerjackman said:
Rev, forget about Chevy, forget about the Camaro, forget about Larson. It's my contention this is a Hendrick chassis issue first and foremost, and thus effects Hendrick and Hendrick only. I'm not saying the new car body and the new rules and the new drivers don't make the issue more acute, but those are at most contributors to the problem, not the cause. The root of the problem predates ALL of these things. Heck, five YEARS ago, SHR was getting more out of the HMS equipment than HMS was. THAT my friend is the source of the problem.
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Okay, and be patient with me here if I am missing something....if SHR was getting Hendrick stuff 5 years ago, and doing more with it, doesn't this point to a driver/team issue than a car issue?
 
I don’t think Hendrick has been at the top of mountain since 14 when JG had 4 wins, Jr had 4 wins, JJ had 4 and KK had 1 win. It’s been a steady decline ever since....and this year I would say has been rock bottom so far.
 
BobbyFord said:
Larson proves the car is competitive.
Look somewhere else if you’re trying to explain the lack of performance in the Chevy camp.
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I would disagree to the extent that Dillon is the only Chevy driver to win this year, but do you get the sense he’s a threat to win each week? Do you feel that way about Larson? While Larson has been competitve, he hasn’t won. I have zero faith right now that Larson could beat the Big 3. I think both Chevy and HMS are out to lunch. I have zero faith ANYONE in the Chevy camp can beat the Big 3 in a fair race situation ( restrictor plate or fuel mileage race). It’s just not there across the board
 
I think HMS is struggling for several reasons, but I think it's temporary, and I don't really think the drivers are part of the problem. I don't think Chase is regressing, and I certainly don't believe Jimmie's ability just suddenly fell off a cliff. Obviously the cars just aren't as fast as they need to be, and there are a lot of factors they need to get figured out. I believe they will, it's just a matter of when. Hopefully sooner rather than later. I don't think their decline will end up at all like Roush or RCR. HMS will find their way back to the top eventually.
 
Snappy D said:
I would disagree to the extent that Dillon is the only Chevy driver to win this year, but do you get the sense he’s a threat to win each week? Do you feel that way about Larson? While Larson has been competitve, he hasn’t won. I have zero faith right now that Larson could beat the Big 3. I think both Chevy and HMS are out to lunch. I have zero faith ANYONE in the Chevy camp can beat the Big 3 in a fair race situation ( restrictor plate or fuel mileage race). It’s just not there across the board
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Larson overdrives and uses up a racecar.
If you think a fair race is a plate race or a fuel race then I seriously question your knowledge of the sport.
The Dillon boys aren’t qualified to be tire changers on the 42, let alone threats for a win on any given weekend.
Larson drives up front week after week. He’s a youngster with a big foot and he uses up the car early. If he could hire Matt Kenseth for a gas pedal coach he’d probably win every week.
It’s a convenience to place blame on the “new” car for the lack of performance for the bowtie crew but Larson proves that’s BS.
I don’t mind seeing Chevrolet lose races and it isn’t necessarily the car.
 
BobbyFord said:
Larson overdrives and uses up a racecar.
If you think a fair race is a plate race or a fuel race then I seriously question your knowledge of the sport.
The Dillon boys aren’t qualified to be tire changers on the 42, let alone threats for a win on any given weekend.
Larson drives up front week after week. He’s a youngster with a big foot and he uses up the car early. If he could hire Matt Kenseth for a gas pedal coach he’d probably win every week.
It’s a convience to place blame on the “new” car for the lack of performance for the bowtie crew but Larson proves that’s BS.
I don’t mind seeing Chevrolet lose races and it isn’t necessarily the car.
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My fault no need to question my knowledge, I was saying fair races excluding restrictor plate and fuel mileage. But you didn’t answer my question, you think Larson right now can drive by and beat one of the Big 3 to win a race? I agree with everything you said about Larson, he is up front. But IMO I’d bet he won’t win a race this season without a plate or fuel mileage until Chevy finds what they are missing.
 
BobbyFord said:
Larson overdrives and uses up a racecar.
If you think a fair race is a plate race or a fuel race then I seriously question your knowledge of the sport.
The Dillon boys aren’t qualified to be tire changers on the 42, let alone threats for a win on any given weekend.
Larson drives up front week after week. He’s a youngster with a big foot and he uses up the car early. If he could hire Matt Kenseth for a gas pedal coach he’d probably win every week.
It’s a convenience to place blame on the “new” car for the lack of performance for the bowtie crew but Larson proves that’s BS.
I don’t mind seeing Chevrolet lose races and it isn’t necessarily the car.
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Also if you feel Chevy people are saying it’s the car and you find that BS, what other Chevy driver do you think could win right now and beat the Big 3
 
FearThe4 said:
it seems these days they are in the same league as RCR but do you think they can get back to the top or is this what we can expect from them going forward?
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I think the garage has caught up to HMS AND with the lack of ability to finesse the cars (cheat a little) what put them ahead is no longer available. That could be the reason the 48 no longer rules.
All the other drivers are rookies so the feed back is not up to snuff.
Who are the leaders today????? The old timers, Kyle, Martin, Harvick and even Clint and they have the wins. The Fords are top ten but not winning cars except for Harvick and Clint and even then I say Harvick is the strongest Ford. Penske drivers are not working together.
 
Snappy D said:
Also if you feel Chevy people are saying it’s the car and you find that BS, what other Chevy driver do you think could win right now and beat the Big 3
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There’s only one driver in a Chevrolet right now; Larson.
Jimmie is an aging champion.
Which Chevy driver would you bet on for the next 5 years?
 
BobbyFord said:
There’s only one driver in a Chevrolet right now; Larson.
Jimmie is an aging champion.
Which Chevy driver would you bet on for the next 5 years?
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I thought we were debating the here and now?
 
I think NASCAR turned a blind eye for so long to HMS cheating in an effort to increase popularity and viewership.
It’s biting them in the ass as we speak.
I don’t mind what’s happening.
Some weekends I don’t watch. I didn’t watch a single race for two years.
I really don’t care what people think is wrong. The older I get, the less important NASCAR is.
I’m not a Chevy guy and I really don’t care why they’re not competitive.
 
9 fan for life said:
It’s the Camaro. Chevrolet’s ran a lot better last year.Yes they qualify good but under race conditions they suck.
There maybe 1 or 2 in the top ten after every race. They have a aero issue in my opinion. It really shows on the flatter tracks.
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Last years cars have nothing to do with this. The cars this year are different and the difference could be enough to take away tenths in speed. The big difference is the young drivers. Teams with older drivers are still up front. Its called smarts, unless your in a Penske / Roush Ford.
 
Maybe we’re seeing now that JJ can’t run with the big dogs on a level playing field.
It ain’t Chad and it ain’t Jimmie.
 
BobbyFord said:
I think NASCAR turned a blind eye for so long to HMS cheating in an effort to increase popularity and viewership.
It’s biting them in the ass as we speak.
I don’t mind what’s happening.
Some weekends I don’t watch. I didn’t watch a single race for two years.
I really don’t care what people think is wrong. The older I get, the less important NASCAR is.
I’m not a Chevy guy and I really don’t care why they’re not competitive.
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Jack Roush, is that you?
 
StandOnIt said:
If Chad or any of the Hendrick teams don't have any decent race data worth a darn to start with, they have to race the cars at tracks first and then compare data. In the cup series, just being close gets you in the top 20's if you are lucky. They can tape them up and qualify decent, but in race trim they look pretty bad and hardly get better as the race wears on for the most part.
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Could it be that the Crew Chiefs themselves are lost? In the past 4 yrs they really only had the 48. The others cars were mediocre.
 
Team Penske said:
Could it be that the Crew Chiefs themselves are lost? In the past 4 yrs they really only had the 48. The others cars were mediocre.
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I don't think so. Gustafson has been a successful CC for many years, Grubb is the best CC that the 5 (24) team has had in forever, and I think Ives is a really good CC with a bright future.

I really don't think HMS is struggling because of the drivers or crew chiefs.
 
Team Penske said:
Could it be that the Crew Chiefs themselves are lost? In the past 4 yrs they really only had the 48. The others cars were mediocre.
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The drivers are gone. Jeff retired, Jimmie is aging, JR sold merchandise but was never gonna be a threat for the weekend.
I think fans are grasping at straws while looking beyond the facts.
 
BobbyFord said:
The drivers are gone. Jeff retired, Jimmie is aging, JR sold merchandise but was never gonna be a threat for the weekend.
I think fans are grasping at straws while looking beyond the facts.
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Lol what does this even mean?

If you want to talk about facts, look at Elliott's stats this year compared to last year. Do you really think Elliott has regressed this badly in his 3rd season? Most drivers typically break out in their third year, so what has happened with Elliott? Is he the problem, or is it more likely that the car is the problem?
 
2 Sweet said:
Lol what does this even mean?

If you want to talk about facts, look at Elliott's stats this year compared to last year. Do you really think Elliott has regressed this badly in his 3rd season? Most drivers typically break out in their third year, so what has happened with Elliott? Is he the problem, or is it more likely that the car is the problem?
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I really don’t look at Elliott as a threat to win anything; Cup or Xfin. I don’t care why he is struggling. His dad, in the 9, was a Ford. Maybe that’s the problem, if you think it’s the car.
Larson would disagree, I’m sure.
 
BobbyFord said:
I really don’t look at Elliott as a threat to win anything; Cup or Xfin.
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LOL. Funny....

HH22774W.jpg


BobbyFord said:
I don’t care why he is struggling. His dad, in the 9, was a Ford. Maybe that’s the problem, if you think it’s the car.
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How many races did Bill win in this Ford?

2351204650_581275902f_z.jpg


BobbyFord said:
Larson would disagree, I’m sure.
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How many races has Larson won this year?
 
2 Sweet said:
LOL. Funny....

HH22774W.jpg




How many races did Bill win in this Ford?

2351204650_581275902f_z.jpg




How many races has Larson won this year?
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You can post any pics you want to support your position. Chase Elliott doesn’t have stellar stats in any series.
Your last name is not a guarantee of success in the Cup series as we’ve seen with Dale Jr.
 
BobbyFord said:
You can post any pics you want to support your position. Chase Elliott doesn’t have stellar stats in any series.
Your last name is not a guarantee of success in the Cup series as we’ve seen with Dale Jr.
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I think you're missing the point. Chase didn't regress as a driver this year. Jimmie hasn't forgotten how to drive a race car. The team is struggling with the cars right now, it's as simple as that.

Did you think Dale Earnhardt was washed up after 1992?
 
This is all conjecture by everyone, including me, but here’s my take. The new Camaro is not the equal of the other makes, and slipped a bit from last year. Larson’s team has figured something out to get speed out of it better than HMS. Elliot has run better than the other Hendrick entries, but cannot run consistently up front. None of the Chevys do, except for Larson. As the season has progressed you can tell they are making some progress, but so are the other cars. Stewart Hass was dominant early, but now they are just really good. The Toyota teams are strong, with Truex getting dialed in to compete with KDB.

Agree that HMS slipped back over the last couple of years prior to this change. Johnson hasn’t lost anything. The guy is in great shape and is still a cold burn competitor. The others are relative youngins in a sport that rewards disciplined experience on the track.
 
2 Sweet said:
I think you're missing the point. Chase didn't regress as a driver this year. Jimmie hasn't forgotten how to drive a race car. The team is struggling with the cars right now, it's as simple as that.

Did you think Dale Earnhardt was washed up after 1992?
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It ain’t the cars.
I’m not missing any point.
 
There's a lot of really smart people that designed, built, and work on and around these cars every day that say it's the car. Are we really going to call them liars and say no it's not?

We've seen what Chase Elliott does with decent race cars (see the playoffs last year), and obviously the name Jimmie Johnson speaks for itself. He may or may not be on the decline, but there's no doubt if he had good cars under him he'd easily be running near the front.
 
BobbyFord said:
You can post any pics you want to support your position. Chase Elliott doesn’t have stellar stats in any series.
Your last name is not a guarantee of success in the Cup series as we’ve seen with Dale Jr.
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He actually has better stats than a lot of top cup guys the last 2+ years. Blaney included, who gets all the praise. Just putting that out there.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
He actually has better stats than a lot of top cup guys the last 2+ years. Blaney included, who gets all the praise. Just putting that out there.
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People on here are blind to everything but the win column. I wonder does that make Chris Buescher better than Chase Elliott to them too.
 
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