Is Hendrick Motorsports no longer a Super Team?

Every Chevrolet driver is performing worse this year than last, Larson included.

Every Hendrick driver is struggling to find speed, and underachieving across the board.

But yeah, it's not the cars, it's all on the drivers. :rolleyes:

Maybe Richard Childress should have fired Dale Earnhardt after his extremely disappointing 1992 season. I mean he was 42 years old and finished 12th in points, he must have been washed up, it couldn't have possibly been the car that was the problem.....
 
2 Sweet said:
Every Chevrolet driver is performing worse this year than last, Larson included.

Every Hendrick driver is struggling to find speed, and underachieving across the board.

But yeah, it's not the cars, it's all on the drivers. :rolleyes:

Maybe Richard Childress should have fired Dale Earnhardt after his extremely disappointing 1992 season. I mean he was 42 years old and finished 12th in points, he must have been washed up, it couldn't have possibly been the car that was the problem.....
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Dale is dead and is irrelevant to this season
Chevy has crap drivers this year. Maybe they get better next year.
The best drivers aren’t in Chevrolets this year and people are flipping out.
I’m a Ford guy but my drivers are in Toyotas now. I don’t sweat it and I don’t offer excuses.
 
BobbyFord said:
Wins. How many wins?
Stats don’t mean ****t if there’s goose eggs in the win column.
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In a world where you don't have to win in order to be crowned champion, does it even matter?

Would you take Stenhouse, Buescher, or Dillon over Elliott if you were starting a race team? You wouldn't. But..."WINS!" they say. These guys have wins that did absolutely nothing for their careers, yet Chase and his goose egg damn near went to Homestead last year by only being bested by the eventual champion in average finish in the last 10 races.

Stats tell the entire story in sports, otherwise they wouldn't bother tracking them.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
In a world where you don't have to win in order to be crowned champion, does it even matter?

Would you take Stenhouse, Buescher, or Dillon over Elliott if you were starting a race team? You wouldn't. But..."WINS!" they say.
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I wouldn’t pull for Stenhouse, Buescher, Dillon or Elliott if they were the only cars out there.
 
BobbyFord said:
Dale is dead and is irrelevant to this season
Chevy has crap drivers this year. Maybe they get better next year.
The best drivers aren’t in Chevrolets this year and people are flipping out.
I’m a Ford guy but my drivers are in Toyotas now. I don’t sweat it and I don’t offer excuses.
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Missing the point once again.

Dale sucked in 1992 because the cars sucked. They fixed the cars the next season and Dale went back to winning championships. So yes, it's relevant to the discussion.

So you're saying that every Chevrolet driver got worse this year? Thay would be quite a coincidence, don't you think?
 
Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Kevin Harvick, and Jimmie Johnson are a testament to how important the cars are.

Jimmie can't win with ****, Clint couldn't, Martin couldn't, and Harvick couldn't. There are more examples of bad cars with capable drivers than bad drivers (danica) with capable cars. No way am I believing that Jimmie Johnson is getting lapped at Martinsville because he can't drive anymore.
 
2 Sweet said:
Missing the point once again.

Dale sucked in 1992 because the cars sucked. They fixed the cars the next season and Dale went back to winning championships. So yes, it's relevant to the discussion.

So you're saying that every Chevrolet driver got worse this year? Thay would be quite a coincidence, don't you think?
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Your point isn’t my point. I’m not missing anything.
Chevy doesn’t have the best drivers this year and I think that’s what you guys are struggling with.
 
BobbyFord said:
Your point isn’t my point. I’m not missing anything.
Chevy doesn’t have the best drivers this year and I think that’s what you guys are struggling with.
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If you think Harvick, Busch, and Truex are winning because they are the best drivers in the field, that's a fair opinion.

I think you could take all three of those drivers and put them on any Chevrolet team this season, and they would all be struggling to compete for wins. Just my opinion.
 
AdoubleU24 said:
In a world where you don't have to win in order to be crowned champion, does it even matter?

Would you take Stenhouse, Buescher, or Dillon over Elliott if you were starting a race team? You wouldn't. But..."WINS!" they say. These guys have wins that did absolutely nothing for their careers, yet Chase and his goose egg damn near went to Homestead last year by only being bested by the eventual champion in average finish in the last 10 races.

Stats tell the entire story in sports, otherwise they wouldn't bother tracking them.
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Elliott is better then Bobbyford is giving him credit for but at the same time Buescher, Dillon, and Stenhouse are all winners and champions in this sport. Not exactly scrubs
 
ReturnTrip said:
Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Kevin Harvick, and Jimmie Johnson are a testament to how important the cars are.

Jimmie can't win with sh!t, Clint couldn't, Martin couldn't, and Harvick couldn't. There are more examples of bad cars with capable drivers than bad drivers (danica) with capable cars. No way am I believing that Jimmie Johnson is getting lapped at Martinsville because he can't drive anymore.
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Its crazy that Bowyer is most successful driver behind the "big 3". This year has been a bizzare one tbh. To be honest, Bobby might have a point. In terms of the field, most teams are a Chevy chassis of some sorts. To be fair, Ford has the best balance of drivers in the field atm.

Keselowski, Logano, Ku. Busch, Harvick, Bowyer, Almirola, Menard, Blaney, and to a lesser extent Stenhouse. Ford has a balance of strong veterans, championship caliber, and youth.

Chevy has a LOT of young drivers if you really think about it, a ton of potential, but outside of Johnson as a whole in the Chevy camp... Who is successful and has been successful, In see where Bobby is coming from. Not to mention, Toyota has a small, but a stolid core with a company that pours the most money into the sport.

I see where Bobby is coming from, but the fact of the matter is that Chevy has not wrapped their heads around this car. Nobody has won, remember at the beginning of the season Larson and Elliott were close and the only decent runners. Its more of the fact CGR has found something the others have not quite yet. Wasn't long ago Toyota and Ford were going through rougher times, it happens.
 
BobbyFord said:
Your point isn’t my point. I’m not missing anything.
Chevy doesn’t have the best drivers this year and I think that’s what you guys are struggling with.
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Huh? Lol Jimmie Johnson is arguably the best ever and won a title just two years ago. The Camaro is hot garbage right now and teams are more dialed in than ever. Kyle Larson won 4 races last year and finished in the top 5 an outstanding 15 times. This year he is winless with only 6 top 5’s. Speaks volumes about how down the Camaro is compared to other teams
 
BobbyFord said:
Your point isn’t my point. I’m not missing anything.
Chevy doesn’t have the best drivers this year and I think that’s what you guys are struggling with.
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Except for JJ so how do we explain his pitiful performance. He should be challenging Harvick.
 
Snappy D said:
I would disagree to the extent that Dillon is the only Chevy driver to win this year, but do you get the sense he’s a threat to win each week?
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Anybody in any make or model can win a plate race. That's one of the things about them that some people like. It demonstrates nothing about a team's ability to win anywhere else, especially a mid- or lower-tier team.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Anybody in any make or model can win a plate race. That's one of the things about them that some people like. It demonstrates nothing about a team's ability to win anywhere else, especially a mid- or lower-tier team.
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And that is a very good reason to not tune in.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Anybody in any make or model can win a plate race. That's one of the things about them that some people like. It demonstrates nothing about a team's ability to win anywhere else, especially a mid- or lower-tier team.
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That was the whole point of what I was trying to say. Dillon is not a threat to win currently each week unless it’s at Daytona or Talladega
 
Snappy D said:
But you didn’t answer my question, you think Larson right now can drive by and beat one of the Big 3 to win a race?
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I think he would be nipping at their heels if he'd learn that sometimes you can go faster by going slower.
AdoubleU24 said:
In a world where you don't have to win in order to be crowned champion, does it even matter?
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You never had to win to be crowned champion.
ReturnTrip said:
Clint Bowyer, Martin Truex Jr., Kevin Harvick, and Jimmie Johnson are a testament to how important the cars are.
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I think it says more about how important teams are. For every driver you can cite who improved by switching manufacturers, there's a laundry list of drivers running the same make for other teams and going nowhere.
Stupid question: is there anything preventing Chevy from going back to the previous car? I'm asking a procedural question only, not based on assuming the car is or is not the problem.
 
It seems a personal bias comes across in certain posts and clouds an opinion. I dislike Toyota but in no way would I say that their car isn’t at the top right now and Kyle Busch isn’t the best in the game right now. I’d be lying to myself and disregarding what I see with my own eyes.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Stupid question: is there anything preventing Chevy from going back to the previous car?
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What has changed from last year to this year? The car itself only has a new front clip, they never changed the cars themselves.
The big difference is what Nascar changed for all the teams and manufacturers. They have now gone to "0" height meaning they no longer have a minimum height requirement. That means that every driver / CC had to deal with this. Harvick's team had no problem being better, they have the best CC in the garage. Kyle had no problem, they have the best driver in the garage.
Clint did OK because they mimicked Harvick's car and he can drive.
Now Cole Pern and Martin have found what they needed and so it is the Big 3 or top 4.
The #48 team has not found what JJ needs and so they are out of top 10. Maybe Chad refuses to change his methods or Jimmy just doesn't like this car.
Take away these cars and the whole garage is about the same with no one being a threat every week.
 
Revman said:
Okay, and be patient with me here if I am missing something....if SHR was getting Hendrick stuff 5 years ago, and doing more with it, doesn't this point to a driver/team issue than a car issue?
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In my opinion, no, but your point is plausible. I think it points more to an engineering issue where the basic building blocks were good, but the SHR engineers found a way to get much more out of it. I think there has been a steady decline in the engineering talent at HMS, and some of it is because some of them went to SHR, first because some were asked to, and others, seeking more opportunity. In my opinion, Rex Stump was a HUGE loss for HMS. Rex played a key role in every thing that HMS did from the mid-90's forward. (Remember T-Rex?) At this point, I don't even think the basic building blocks are all that good. It has been my observation over the years that when the crew chiefs get lost, you get inconsistency. When the engineers get lost, you are slow across the board. Back in the heydays of Indycar in the 80's and 90's when there were new chassis designs each year, you would see HUGE performance swings year to year with the same drivers and the same crew chiefs. When Penske built their own cars, some years they were absolutely unbeatable, and other years, they were so bad Penske would park them and buy a competitor's chassis. The drivers didn't get dumb all of the sudden, and the crew chiefs and team engineers didn't get dumb all of the sudden, but if your basic car is sub-par, it's hard to crutch your way around it.
 
Privateer said:
I'm sure Hendrick and his drivers are hating Larson at this point. If Larson wasn't doing what he was doing, they could make the "it's fully the car, none of the Chevys are performing" argument.
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Perhaps, but they would just be lying to themselves. The first step in finding solutions is being honest about the problems.
 
Team Penske said:
What has changed from last year to this year? The car itself only has a new front clip, they never changed the cars themselves.
The big difference is what Nascar changed for all the teams and manufacturers. They have now gone to "0" height meaning they no longer have a minimum height requirement. That means that every driver / CC had to deal with this. Harvick's team had no problem being better, they have the best CC in the garage. Kyle had no problem, they have the best driver in the garage.
Clint did OK because they mimicked Harvick's car and he can drive.
Now Cole Pern and Martin have found what they needed and so it is the Big 3 or top 4.
The #48 team has not found what JJ needs and so they are out of top 10. Maybe Chad refuses to change his methods or Jimmy just doesn't like this car.
Take away these cars and the whole garage is about the same with no one being a threat every week.
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All that's well and good, but it doesn't answer my question. If they wanted to, could Chevy go back to the old front clip?
 
Charlie Spencer said:
All that's well and good, but it doesn't answer my question. If they wanted to, could Chevy go back to the old front clip?
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We don't even know if the new cars have a different front clip than last years. My guess is if it's ANY different , it's minor. My guess is that the difference is. In how the 2018 rules and inspection package impact the chassis and maybe a little bit of how the new body effects that chassis. I kind of wonder if in the HMS case at least (Ganassi maybe not as much) that the cars were crutched to cover up some of their deficiencies and it sort of worked on the 2017 cars, but does not work at all with the 2018 cars. We were told that the front to rear balance on the Camaro was vastly different than the SS, and that in itself might be a good thing, but it may have thrown the HMS chassis for a loop, and sometimes if you get too far down one road, it's hard to go back, and even if you do, the competition that went the other way is MUCH further down that road. Stay with me for a little story about an engineering problem. In the mid-2000's all diesel truck manufacturers were faced with meeting a far more stringent set of pollution control standards imposed by the government. Every truck and engine manufacturer decided to implement the diesel exhaust fluid system (DEF) already in use in Europe EXCEPT Navistar. They decided to buck the trend and use a EGR valve only approach for it's supposed simplicity and lower operating cost. It sounded great, but after several years of failures and nearly bankrupting the company, Navistar was forced to admit that they couldn't make it work. By now, everyone else was several years ahead on the DEF system technology, and they had neither the knowledge or the money to quickly catch up, so they suspended the production of their own engines and began equipping their trucks solely with engines and emission control equipment including DEF from their competitor, Cummins Engine Co. If you go down the wrong road, it can take a LONG time to catch up.
 
I remember reading before the season started about how when they were designing the Camaro, they decided to put more emphasis on rear downforce. Could it be they focused on the wrong thing?
 
Kiante said:
most teams are a Chevy chassis of some sorts
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Uhmm...No...they are all based off of the Ford chassis from way back in the mid '60's.

Where did you get the ideal that they were based off of a GM chassis? The only allusion to GM is the old truck trailing arms.
 
Formerjackman said:
We don't even know if the new cars have a different front clip than last years. My guess is if it's ANY different , it's minor. My guess is that the difference is. In how the 2018 rules and inspection package impact the chassis and maybe a little bit of how the new body effects that chassis. I kind of wonder if in the HMS case at least (Ganassi maybe not as much) that the cars were crutched to cover up some of their deficiencies and it sort of worked on the 2017 cars, but does not work at all with the 2018 cars. We were told that the front to rear balance on the Camaro was vastly different than the SS, and that in itself might be a good thing, but it may have thrown the HMS chassis for a loop, and sometimes if you get too far down one road, it's hard to go back, and even if you do, the competition that went the other way is MUCH further down that road. Stay with me for a little story about an engineering problem. In the mid-2000's all diesel truck manufacturers were faced with meeting a far more stringent set of pollution control standards imposed by the government. Every truck and engine manufacturer decided to implement the diesel exhaust fluid system (DEF) already in use in Europe EXCEPT Navistar. They decided to buck the trend and use a EGR valve only approach for it's supposed simplicity and lower operating cost. It sounded great, but after several years of failures and nearly bankrupting the company, Navistar was forced to admit that they couldn't make it work. By now, everyone else was several years ahead on the DEF system technology, and they had neither the knowledge or the money to quickly catch up, so they suspended the production of their own engines and began equipping their trucks solely with engines and emission control equipment including DEF from their competitor, Cummins Engine Co. If you go down the wrong road, it can take a LONG time to catch up.
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Quick aside....that DEF/EGR system/DPF is the worst thing ever. The absolute worst. I pray for the day it goes away. Screw the EPA.
 
OldTimer said:
Uhmm...No...they are all based off of the Ford chassis from way back in the mid '60's.

Where did you get the ideal that they were based off of a GM chassis? The only allusion to GM is the old truck trailing arms.
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For many years, the front suspensions WERE based off the Ford design, but by the early 80's when front steer chassis and certainly by the late 90's when single mounting point boxed steel lower control arms finally died out, the front suspension bore a closer relationship to a GM suspension than to anything Ford. In fact, Bobby Allison was using a GM style setup years before anyone else and often winning with it. Unlike the GM style truck arm setup in the rear, the front is more generic than anything. About the ONLY un-GM like thing on the Cup car front suspension is that on a real GM car, the shock would be mounted inside the coil spring instead of going from the lower control arm to the frame. That sucks on a street car, and is totally impractical on a Cup car. I used to spend a LOT of time changing camber/caster shims on those upper control arms. The headers really heat the hell out of that stuff and make it extra fun to work with.
 
OldTimer said:
Actually have an old Bobby Allison car...it has the front set up based on the '72 + Torino. It was updated with a suspension based on the '80 Ford LTD.
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I have no idea which cars Allison used the GM style front end on, since he raced pretty much every make and model of car out there at some point during the 70's, but I know that he used it from time to time and he was an early advocate of front steer cars, which was pretty much a GM thing. It may have been based on what was even legal at any particular time. I know that the Mopars had to stay with leaf springs in the rear until either when the 1981 downsized cars came out or shortly before it, even though the Fords and GM cars had been using the GM style truck arms with coils for years. The guys over at The Randy Ayres NASCAR modeling Forum REALLY keep up on stuff like this and are an excellent source of information.
 
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