Revman
Toyota Gazoo Racing North America
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2014
- Messages
- 15,377
- Points
- 1,033
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Ehh, I'm not really debating any of that. I was challenging your assertion that Harvick and Bowyer were never threats to win championships.
You could make a case against Bowyer, 'cause 2012 was pretty much the Brad and Jimmie show. He was a little less than a full race back going into Phoenix, but Jimmie ended up finishing 32nd that day. He could easily have made up some ground there and had at least an outside shot at the title if not for that meddling Jeffy.
Harvick was definitely a threat to win it in 2010, though. He led the points for a good portion of the season, had the highest average finish of all the Chase drivers (5.8 in the Chase and 8.7 for the whole season), and had a shot at the title going into Homestead along with Hamlin and Johnson.
I say we can at least scratch Harv off your list.
R
ramfan9
Guest
That has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard.....Jeff "got into his head" and "owned" him. What a joke. Why would a guy who is normally so challenged on restarts be in Kasey's head? If anyone ever got "owned" on a restart it would have to be Kasey owning Jeff last August at Pocono with that move that Gordon said "took his breath away." What was in Kasey's head was a buch of difefrent things including trying to figure out how hard to push knowing he was likely going to run out of gas and how hard Jeff ran him prior to the caution in which case Kasey did a hell of a job holding him back and trying to save fuel. The day ended up as good as it could have for Kasey all things considered. He was in an impossible situation.
R
ramfan9
Guest
Ehh, I'm not really debating any of that. I was challenging your assertion that Harvick and Bowyer were never threats to win championships.
You could make a case against Bowyer, 'cause 2012 was pretty much the Brad and Jimmie show. He was a little less than a full race back going into Phoenix, but Jimmie ended up finishing 32nd that day. He could easily have made up some ground there and had at least an outside shot at the title if not for that meddling Jeffy.
Harvick was definitely a threat to win it in 2010, though. He led the points for a good portion of the season, had the highest average finish of all the Chase drivers (5.8 in the Chase and 8.7 for the whole season), and had a shot at the title going into Homestead along with Hamlin and Johnson.
I say we can at least scratch Harv off your list.
We could go on and on but until this year Championships just boiled down mostly to who had the least bad luck of the top tier teams. There are probably at least 10-15 guys every year who perform well enough to win a championship but of those guys who has the least misfortune is who usually comes out on top. That's why I think championships are overrated. Winning can be overrated too. I think all a driver can really do is try to be a top 10 every week, Everything else is so dependent on so many other factors that are out of their control. Hopefully this new format will change some of that as DNF's don't kill you until the last round but imagine this: Bill Elliott famously cut a tire while leading on the last lap at Homestad on the final lap of his full time driving career. Imagine if he were one of the final four in the hunt for a title and he LITTERALLY lost the championship because of a cut tire.....that would be a hard pill to swallow.
R
ramfan9
Guest
Agreed....my nephew is a huge Biffle fan and he was so frustrated to hear that Biffle resigned with RFR. Biffle got his start in NASCAR too late...I believe he was already 30 or older for his rookie cup season. If he had come earlier and been with a better team he could have won multiple titles by now. Kasey got his start early enough but has been through so much turmoil throughout his career that he has never been able to be settled anywhere. The only stability he had were his first 3 years and his thrid year - 2006 - also happened to be the year he rattled off 6 wins. Since then nothng but changing teams and makes of cars. He's barley gotten settled at HMS and no he has to hear he may be out. Maybe that's why I like Kasey...seems like we're the same person. I can never buys a break either....LOL
Marcingak
Team Owner
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2013
- Messages
- 1,656
- Points
- 493
Right before the last restart even Gordon's crew chief said that whoever gets out in front wins.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
Ehh, I'm not really debating any of that. I was challenging your assertion that Harvick and Bowyer were never threats to win championships.
You could make a case against Bowyer, 'cause 2012 was pretty much the Brad and Jimmie show. He was a little less than a full race back going into Phoenix, but Jimmie ended up finishing 32nd that day. He could easily have made up some ground there and had at least an outside shot at the title if not for that meddling Jeffy.
Harvick was definitely a threat to win it in 2010, though. He led the points for a good portion of the season, had the highest average finish of all the Chase drivers (5.8 in the Chase and 8.7 for the whole season), and had a shot at the title going into Homestead along with Hamlin and Johnson.
I say we can at least scratch Harv off your list.
I understand where you are coming from, but I was going by championships, and for what ever reason, bad breaks, this year, pit crew from hell, he hasn't got one...yet. I was not ruling him out for a championship this year, but I was saying Kahne isn't even close, he is points racing just trying to get in and I think he will get in, but I don't think he will last long in the eliminations, whereas Harvick, if he gets a few good breaks and I believe he has some coming, might get one this year.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Kahne is up to 9th in year-to-date driver rating now, the results aren't always there though (Darlington, Pocono, Daytona) and he'd also be solidly in the Chase if it weren't for the silly point-per-position system we have.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
He would've ran out of gas trying to defend Gordon anyways.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
I still think he should've taken his 3M sponsorship to MWR. Wasted opportunity.
StandOnIt
Farm Truck
woah gees, not the pit of hell. give him a break, Toyota's are not the answer, just ask Kenseth. after Carl "the media star" leaves, biffle and company will step up. Jack is going to circle the wagons and put a boot up their A$$es.
R
ramfan9
Guest
Just so you know it was said on NASCAR Racehub AGAIN last night by Bob Dilner that it still appears that Chase Elliott is headed to the 24 in 2016 which seems to indicate that Jeff is still leaning toward retirement after 2015....hell he may retire THIS year if he wins a championship so your statement is pretty far off base. HMS has 2 seats to fill with Jeff's retirement nearing and I am sure Rick is trying to figure out a way to have both Chase and Kasey.
Lazyking
Over the Cassill we go
Kahne will win the pocono race
R
ramfan9
Guest
Bold prediction...sure hope you are right. Seriously though...you'd think with all the other HMS drivers locked in that the focus would go to the 5 to make sure it's up to speed. Still really annoying that Jimmie won the 600 with Kasey's set up. Maybe it's time to return the favor.
Lazyking
Over the Cassill we go
It may be bold but the team seems to have things together now,
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Kenseth had one of his best seasons ever last year. All three JGR drivers are still in the top 10 in driver rating, Bowyer is 11th, and even Vickers is close behind Biffle. RFR doesn't have the speed on the intermediates anymore and it will be years (if ever) before they do again. Biffle is old and he should've gone to race for Mikey's TRD-backed team rather than finishing out his career with a decrepit owner and a dying organization.
R
ramfan9
Guest
More crap all over NASCAR.com about the 5 next year and Chase Elliott's future. I am amazed by how many are so positive that Chase will be in the 5. Like I have said all along I won't sit here and pretend that I know what is goingto happen as Chase taking the 5 is possible but the more I read the less likely it seems and this is why: It was said just last week again on Racehub that indications are that Chase is headed to the 24 in 2016 and that is inside information that does not just come out of thin air. Combined that with the fact that Gordon has always said that he NEVER planned to race well into his 40's AND there is more on Jayski today that his back continues to bother him. ALSO, according to the article on NASCAR.com Chase's plans are already decided just not public yet. HMS would have no reason to not just announce now that Chase is in the 5 for 2016 and make it known that Kasey will be a free agent. They have also not gone out of their way to say what Chase's plans are for 2015 when we KNOW he will NOT be in the 5 for 2015 no matter what. This leads me to believe that all hinges on Gordon. I personally believe he has already informed Rick that he is retiring either after 2015 or 2016 and that is what is holding up the announcment on Chase's 2015 plans. This also combined with the fact that Chase is tied to NAPA as primary sponsor and Farmer's just signed on to be primary of the 5 through 2017 and they really like Kasey since they came onboard with him at HMS. I think that nothing is being announced yet including Kasey's contract extension because it will let the cat out of the bag on Gordon's retirement and he does not want it made public yet and let's face it - Gordon has earned whatever he wants at this point including when is retirement is announced. No matter what happens though I wil say this - If Chase does take the 5 I really don't feel like it's due to Kasey's performance. He runs up front consistently enough and that's all that matters. His results would be much better if not for some bad luck. If he's out it's just because Chase may very well be the future of the sport and if Gordon is NOT retiring there is just no where else to put him and HMS does not want to let him get away.
Greg
2014 RF YAHOO CHAMP Your leader
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2011
- Messages
- 23,999
- Points
- 1,033
So I am to believe 6 time just enjoyed more luck? I dont think so.
He has a 24% chase win percentage, and three times as many chase wins as the next highest chase winners. You can call it a lot things, but luck isnt one of them.
pudge
When Nothing Goes Right....Go Left
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 2,525
- Points
- 243
this reads of a poor Kasey post, he no different than other drivers out there. Yates was to bring him up in cup, and this was when Yates was top dog motor wise, and poor Kasey done nothing but wreck and was fired. not much has changed since then except he gets a win here and there with wrecks in-between. bottom line he's just average, and average drivers do get replaced.
R
ramfan9
Guest
Jimmie is the exception to the rule. There is no arguing against what he has accomplished but to say luck has nothing to do with it is borderline ignorant. We all remember the "Golden Horseshoe" comment. Jimmie is one of the greats regardless of luck but in order to have as much go right as he has had luck has to be a contributing factor here and there.
R
ramfan9
Guest
You are obviously biased against him for some reason. When he was with Yates their engines were good but they were at their end their time as a TEAM and that is why they don't exist anymore. If all he did was wreck how come Ray decided to build his team around Kasey? I would not say that a guy just entering his prime with 16 wins to his credit already and the majority of those coming in equipment that no one else can win in "average." Is Kasey going to go down as one of the greats? No. But having as many wins as he does in the equipment and turmoil he has dealt with qualifies him as above average - especially since he has wins at all types of tracks. If you want to talk about an average driver we can talk about the guy in the picture with your post. Newman came in as the next great thing but now he's barley EVER a threat to win. His fluke win at Indy last year may very well be his last.
I don't visit NASCAR.com anymore so I have no clue what they're talking about, but I wouldn't take the speculation of a few folks on here too seriously.
Even if Chase did end up in the 5 and Kasey had to find another Cup ride, I don't doubt for a second that he would find at least a decent one, given that one was available. He's too good of a driver for all the owners to just pass up.
pudge
When Nothing Goes Right....Go Left
- Joined
- May 8, 2014
- Messages
- 2,525
- Points
- 243
ok, your right. i'm biased. Ray also fielded cars for an aged Bill Elliott, and Jeremy Mayfield, so maybe he was just taking in strays. i just wish Kasey would bump and bang and not just get bumped and banged. as far as Newman, i don't think he's a threat to win any race, but mess with him and he will whoop some butt. i don't recall Newman ever being considered the next great thing, but Kasey was suppose to. to me Kasey and Ryan are about the same, average drivers. i wasn't trying to upset you with my comment, if i did i'm sorry bout that.
hidesert cowboy
Team Owner
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2013
- Messages
- 1,244
- Points
- 293
everyone needs to relax. I don't see rick letting kasey go. I see chase running a full nationwide season next year just like this year. if you are chase even if it means staying in NW an extra year wouldn't it be worth it to get in a HMS cup car?? gibbs is going to be 4 cars, SHR is already 4, roush is dying, that leaves RCR and penske for cup rides. I see RCR sliding downhill. Chase isn't going anywhere and he isn't getting into one of the 4 cup cars HMS runs weekly until jeff gordon decides what he is doing. besides can't an owner run a 5th car as much as they want as long as its not running for the title?? the simple thing to do would be bring a 5th car to all the companion NW events and let chase run that car until gordon retires.
Greg
2014 RF YAHOO CHAMP Your leader
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2011
- Messages
- 23,999
- Points
- 1,033
Ignorant? Nice try and Lol.
Some things are self evident I presented facts to counter your opinions, while a golden horseshoe quote is all you are bringing to the table for substance.
R
ramfan9
Guest
There's not much anyone could say on a message board to upset me. I do recall a time when Newman was a can't miss guy and he faded more so than Kasey. Has Kasey lived up to the Hype? No. He has however remained a regular threat to won races almost every year. He has also done this without bumping people out of the way because he does not need to.
As for Ray fielding and "aging" Bill Elliott that worked out pretty well if I recall and the car Mayfied drove was basically an R&D car and he even won a race and made the Chase. Bill was the perfect veteran type driver to start a new team around, The kind of guy that would give you exactly what the car had every week with experienced feedback to get the team better.
R
ramfan9
Guest
I don't know about that...you presented one fact and I gave you that Jimmie Johnson is a unique case but even he'd probably tell you he'd rather be lucky than good. You can't say luck does not play at least a small roll in his success. Also, The Chase helps eliminate the luck factor to a certain degree compared to the old style of most points in a whole season but look at last season. As much as it pains me to admit it if Dale Jr does not lose an engine at Chicago HE wins the championship....I'd call that a LUCKY break for Johnson......is that enough FACT for you?
Last edited by a moderator:
Greg
2014 RF YAHOO CHAMP Your leader
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2011
- Messages
- 23,999
- Points
- 1,033
Nevermind. I am confident of my opinion and I think I am have proven my point. I am done with the topic.
Of course Jimmie would say he'd rather be lucky than good. Anyone would. They'd be crazy to disagree with that.
That being said, one does not simply luck their way into six championships, five of which were consecutive. Anytime you win six titles, you've got mad skills, and your team probably does too.
Greg
2014 RF YAHOO CHAMP Your leader
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2011
- Messages
- 23,999
- Points
- 1,033
Well said. Jimmie has been fortunate as any most any champion, unless someome wins the title by more than a one race margin luck is a factor. But like you say six times, five of them consecutive takes a lot more than skills than luck. Domination usually isnt discounted so easily, I have never seen anyone in sports dominate so throughly in front of such denial.
R
ramfan9
Guest
OK..Well I KNOW you are wrong there because it's not possible for anyone to prove opinion about general statements and that's all we are doing here. You think championships have NOTHING to do with luck and I think that luck plays at least some role in it a good majority of the time. I already acknowledged that you have to be good...I said "of the top tier teams." I also get it. Jimmie is winning some championships regardless of luck....He needed some luck on his side to win 6 though. I look at Brad K's championship year...yes they were good but it seemed like so many times during The Chase he was in the right place at the right time and avoided disaster. Kurt Busch in 04 losing the tire RIGHT at the entrance of pit road....happens anywhere else we have another champion that year.
R
ramfan9
Guest
Agreed.
Marcingak
Team Owner
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2013
- Messages
- 1,656
- Points
- 493
I think the reason so many people discredit Johnson's accomplishments is because of the Chase format. Had he won his championships under the old format I think he would have way more respect. Not saying it's right but that's the way it is.
Greg
2014 RF YAHOO CHAMP Your leader
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2011
- Messages
- 23,999
- Points
- 1,033
Got it, I am all wrong and your first response implied I am ignorant.
You originally made luck sound huge to the point of discrediting the accomplishments.
Thats why I tried to end the conversation with you and I am doing it now. A discussion with someone that is impervious to logic and good at insults isnt worth my time.
You can have the last word.
DaBiff1618
Team Owner
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2013
- Messages
- 3,590
- Points
- 443
Ive been a diehard Kahne fan his whole career, but I'm tired of defending his mediocrity. Given the performance and ability to win of his other teammates, and the fact he was hardly a factor at one of his best tracks, I think Hendrick should make a driver change. I would dump Kahne for Carl Edwards or Chase Elliott in a heartbeat
Mediocrity? He finished 10th today.
KahneFan
Team Owner
Kahne can still win at anytime, it takes more than just the driver to be perfect. For example today, pit strategy won the race for Jr. At one point during the race, Kasey was running the fastest laps of anybody. But his strategy didn't work out.
I agree that it doesn't look good that his teammates have 8 wins, but it's not time to dump him yet.
hidesert cowboy
Team Owner
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2013
- Messages
- 1,244
- Points
- 293
I think its time for kasey to get a new crew chief. kasey isn't really a set your world on fire type driver, but he is a better driver than the cars he has been given.
G
Gordon_Fan24
Guest
I am not sure when Kahne's contract is up (2015?), but I have a feeling that his time at Hendrick is close to ending....the ever revolving door known as the five car....