NASCAR announces 2019 MENCS rules

Snappy D said:
I just realized my brother’s Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat will be faster than a Cup Car next year. 705HP to 550hp. We’re loading up the trailer.....
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About horsepower. a bit of a chalk talk. They say the current plate package for a Daytona car is 400 to 410 HP and they do over 200 MPH all day long. Common sense tells me something is fishy with the HP figures for the cup cars. Now they say they have designed to 550HP, 150 more than they had for the All Star race. I take horsepower figures with a grain of salt. Take the current 2018 car for example with a reduction of 150 HP from 900 is what they said. Figures below.

2014-900 HP pole at Vegas 193.278
2016- 750 HP I believe this was the year of the high D/F package. Pole at Vegas 196.328
2017- 750 HP first year of the low D/F. Pole speed at Vegas 193.680

somebody explain how the 900 HP package in 2014 and the 2017 750 HP package can post the same speed at the same 1.5 mile track? and the supposedly 150 HP less high 2016 D/F high drag package is faster than both. Vudo racing numbers.
 
The first full season with a lower downforce package was 2016. 2017 featured further reductions. While this stuff is complicated, in basic terms the higher downforce and drag will generally slow top straight line speeds while allowing for higher relative maintained corner speeds.

I'm with @LewTheShoe. They basically hit it out of the park racing-wise with the low downforce initiative, and other major series have been ready to follow their lead. The racing in 2017 has been truly excellent at most tracks, including intermediates. They are effectively panicking and unwisely attributing lack of casual interest and general fatigue to the wrong cause.
 
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StandOnIt said:
About horsepower. a bit of a chalk talk. They say the current plate package for a Daytona car is 400 to 410 HP and they do over 200 MPH all day long. Common sense tells me something is fishy with the HP figures for the cup cars. Now they say they have designed to 550HP, 150 more than they had for the All Star race. I take horsepower figures with a grain of salt. Take the current 2018 car for example with a reduction of 150 HP from 900 is what they said. Figures below.

2014-900 HP pole at Vegas 193.278
2016- 750 HP I believe this was the year of the high D/F package. Pole at Vegas 196.328
2017- 750 HP first year of the low D/F. Pole speed at Vegas 193.680

somebody explain how the 900 HP package in 2014 and the 2017 750 HP package can post the same speed at the same 1.5 mile track? and the supposedly 150 HP less high 2016 D/F high drag package is faster than both. Vudo racing numbers.
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There were aero parts like giant spoilers and whatnot in 2014 that they didn't have in 2017 but, as you said, who knows what numbers did what.
 
2015 750HP reduction first year Pole for Vegas 194.683 is this one the high D/F high drag package? right in there with the rest of the reduced horsepower speeds. :idunno: HP and speed doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as it equates to Nascar anyway.
 
gnomesayin said:
The first full season with a lower downforce package was 2016. 2017 featured further reductions. While this stuff is complicated, in basic terms the higher downforce and drag will generally slow top straight line speeds while allowing for higher relative maintained corner speeds.

I'm with @LewTheShoe. They basically hit it out of the park racing-wise with the low downforce initiative, and other major series have been ready to follow their lead. The racing in 2017 has been truly excellent at most tracks, including intermediates. They are effectively panicking and unwisely attributing lack of casual interest and general fatigue to the wrong cause.
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I know you and Lou and a few others think so

The Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series was in the midst of a competitiveness problem. It got better as the year has rolled on,

The average margin of victory (of races that didn't end under caution) was over three seconds, the highest since NASCAR began using electronic scoring in 1993.

We were averaging fewer than eight different leaders per race, the fewest since 1992. The 15.4 lead changes per race were the lowest since 1992.

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/s...sch-wins-again-competition-chicago-was-fierce
 
In 2015, they reduced HP from 850-900 down to the 725-750 figure, and slightly reduced downforce from ~3500 lbs to ~3200, and then ran low downforce experiments at Kentucky and Darlington, and high downforce experiments at Indy and Michigan. The former was generally well received, the latter was not.

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/13092554/nascar-try-car-setup-reduced-downforce

In 2016, different downforce figures were touted by different sources, but generally they were thought to be in the low 2000s.

In 2017, 1500 lbs was generally cited as the baseline, and it was stated that 1200 lbs was an ultimate goal.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...race-package-rules-downforce-safety/92064594/

All of that is gone now. These cars with the air ducts and massive spoiler will produce more downforce and drag than we've seen since at least 2014, when HP was at its highest ever. The balance they've claimed to be seeking for years has been completely upended.
 
If it isn't clear, I'm actually more angered by the changes increasing downforce and drag than I am by the reduced power. Both suck, but as far as I'm concerned, they could mandate everyone use an identical 500 HP crate motor tomorrow, and if that was coupled with continuing to reduce downforce and sideforce, I would be happier than I am with the lethal combination they just unveiled.
 
gnomesayin said:
If it isn't clear, I'm actually more angered by the changes increasing downforce and drag than I am by the reduced power. Both suck, but as far as I'm concerned, they could mandate everyone use an identical 500 HP crate motor tomorrow, and if that was coupled with continuing to reduce downforce and sideforce, I would be happier than I am with the lethal combination they just unveiled.
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one of the possibilities being kicked around is with the 550HP engine, some other manufacturers might be interested or attracted to that possibility. Looking around, it isn't hard to do a little here and there for some OEM's to come up with these HP figures, Some manufacturers have engines easily making that much. And with my tin foil hat firmly in place, with Jim France at the helm now, it could be an easy transition to have IMSA type GT cars using the balance of performance way to even up the different brands and engines
 
From the article above, IMO a person would have to have a large set of leather blinders on to ignore record statistics that rival the aero era of the early 90's Maybe the screaming gerbils in the booth techniques are working.
These figures are from 2018 but cover 17 races I believe.
We were averaging fewer than eight different leaders per race, the fewest since 1992. The 15.4 lead changes per race were the lowest since 1992. The average margin of victory (of races that didn't end under caution) was over three seconds, the highest since NASCAR began using electronic scoring in 1993
 
I’m hoping everything with this new rules package works out. I’ve never been a fan of less hp in racing of any kind. Imo, if NASCAR is aiming any package towards fans that like wrecks or constant passing, they’ll continue to lose their base fans. My next issue is fan treatment at the tracks. Went to Martinsville last fall and was searched to the point of wondering if I was gonna have to spread my cheeks and/or squat and cough. If they would’ve started down that path with my lady, we were ready to leave. Thankfully they took the hint it wasn’t going to happen.
 
Honestly, and I don't even mean this to be snarky, we want different things out of racing. I've never attended a race and looked at the scoring sheet to decide how good or bad it was. I've seen thrilling races with few lead changes, and boring as hell ones with a bunch of meaningless shuffling back and forth in underpowered slot cars. I am interested In a daring contest of skill, not a show that must meet certain statistical metrics to hold my interest.

I pay attention to various forms of racing (and other sports for that matter). I can find little convincing evidence that the presence of dominant competitors hurts overall interest. I see more evidence that it increases interest. Pick a racing series, any series. Consider the most dominant drivers from that series past and present, and whether the series was more popular or less popular because of them.

Who is dominating, and how those figures are sold to and received by the public, is the key. From a commercial standpoint, NASCAR is unfortunately saddled with a few particularly uncharismatic dominant drivers at present. They also continue to undermine their own stars by buying into the notion that it's supposed to be an unpredictable show rather than a showcase for the very best.
 
I do wonder why, when Nascar continues to say publicly for years that their intent is to produce side by side racing and lead changes. (in almost every article you posted) They have been trying for as long as I know and lately with using the slower tapered spacer and high and low D/F, and they have less lead changes than almost ever, the margin of victory is the highest since records have been kept, 25 years, and side by side racing occurs when there is a stage restart or a caution break for maybe a lap or two before single file. The statistics prove clearly this isn't what Nascar is looking for, a person sure can't go by the stand admission or the ratings to rate how this latest package is going over. I don't regret the past, but I for one am ready to shut the door on it. The statistics don't lie.
 
gnomesayin said:
The first full season with a lower downforce package was 2016. 2017 featured further reductions. While this stuff is complicated, in basic terms the higher downforce and drag will generally slow top straight line speeds while allowing for higher relative maintained corner speeds.

I'm with @LewTheShoe. They basically hit it out of the park racing-wise with the low downforce initiative, and other major series have been ready to follow their lead. The racing in 2017 has been truly excellent at most tracks, including intermediates. They are effectively panicking and unwisely attributing lack of casual interest and general fatigue to the wrong cause.
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Totally agree they are messing with something that is working, why F' it up?
 
gnomesayin said:
Honestly, and I don't even mean this to be snarky, we want different things out of racing. I've never attended a race and looked at the scoring sheet to decide how good or bad it was. I've seen thrilling races with few lead changes, and boring as hell ones with a bunch of meaningless shuffling back and forth in underpowered slot cars. I am interested In a daring contest of skill, not a show that must meet certain statistical metrics to hold my interest.

I pay attention to various forms of racing (and other sports for that matter). I can find little convincing evidence that the presence of dominant competitors hurts overall interest. I see more evidence that it increases interest. Pick a racing series, any series. Consider the most dominant drivers from that series past and present, and whether the series was more popular or less popular because of them.

Who is dominating, and how those figures are sold to and received by the public, is the key. From a commercial standpoint, NASCAR is unfortunately saddled with a few particularly uncharismatic dominant drivers at present. They also continue to undermine their own stars by buying into the notion that it's supposed to be an unpredictable show rather than a showcase for the very best.
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Bottom line is we will never know what the true hp ratings are or were, Nascar uses smoke and mirrors to achieve the figures. In my opinion if you are increasing the hp by 150 or more, speeds at Dega and Daytona will be up, even with the increased downforce and that goes against what I thought they wanted at those tracks.
 
I'm in the bucket of fans that really doesn't give a crap about hp, splitter size, spoiler angle and the like. Put on an entertaining race, one that hold my attention and I'm good. If I get to see more racing like what we saw in the All-Star Race earlier this year, I'm more liable to tune in live to watch these races.

I went back a few minutes ago to review the Rate the All-Star Race Thread. The race got pretty high marks. Of course there was the usual contingent that hates just about everything, but overall, fans were entertained. Entertaining the fans has to be the #1 priority if NASCAR would like to rebuild an audience. Keeping things the same is no more than the same old, same old. It's the same and it's old.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm in the bucket of fans that really doesn't give a crap about hp, splitter size, spoiler angle and the like. Put on an entertaining race, one that hold my attention and I'm good. If I get to see more racing like what we saw in the All-Star Race earlier this year, I'm more liable to tune in live to watch these races.

I went back a few minutes ago to review the Rate the All-Star Race Thread. The race got pretty high marks. Of course there was the usual contingent that hates just about everything, but overall, fans were entertained. Entertaining the fans has to be the #1 priority if NASCAR would like to rebuild an audience. Keeping things the same is no more than the same old, same old. It's the same and it's old.
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Hasn't the racing pretty been entertaining all year, why mess with it?
 
StandOnIt said:
I know you and Lou and a few others think so

The Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series was in the midst of a competitiveness problem. It got better as the year has rolled on,

The average margin of victory (of races that didn't end under caution) was over three seconds, the highest since NASCAR began using electronic scoring in 1993.

We were averaging fewer than eight different leaders per race, the fewest since 1992. The 15.4 lead changes per race were the lowest since 1992.

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/s...sch-wins-again-competition-chicago-was-fierce
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Lead changes and margins of victory do not determine solid racing. There are 35 other positions being raced for, its not just P1.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
Lead changes and margins of victory do not determine solid racing. There are 35 other positions being raced for, its not just P1.
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Truth. And you can thank the god awful TV coverage for skimming over this fact.

Unless of course it pertains to stage points or playoff cutoffs.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm in the bucket of fans that really doesn't give a crap about hp, splitter size, spoiler angle and the like. Put on an entertaining race, one that hold my attention and I'm good. If I get to see more racing like what we saw in the All-Star Race earlier this year, I'm more liable to tune in live to watch these races.
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I'm with you, dpk. I don't care about the technicalities --- I leave that to the people who are paid to take care of them on the car. Just give me
a good race and I'm happy.
 
When NASCAR tried low down force it was liked and that was the new thing. Now another package was tried and it was liked and that is becoming the new thing. NASCAR should stop poling people and use their racing instincts. At least they will be tailoring the package to each track, I think that is a good idea. I like it when NASCAR tries new things to see how they work, things always evolve. I'm in the wait and see camp.
 
dpkimmel2001 said:
I'm in the bucket of fans that really doesn't give a crap about hp, splitter size, spoiler angle and the like. Put on an entertaining race, one that hold my attention and I'm good. If I get to see more racing like what we saw in the All-Star Race earlier this year, I'm more liable to tune in live to watch these races.

I went back a few minutes ago to review the Rate the All-Star Race Thread. The race got pretty high marks. Of course there was the usual contingent that hates just about everything, but overall, fans were entertained. Entertaining the fans has to be the #1 priority if NASCAR would like to rebuild an audience. Keeping things the same is no more than the same old, same old. It's the same and it's old.
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The cars were just going way too slow and the racing was way out of the drivers hands. Get passed? Shuffled out and 10+ spots are lost.

If they can make these cars fast enough where they still use all the track(not sucked to the apron like the ASR), and the draft isn't quite so critical, they may have something.

If this thing rolls out and it looks like the 2018 ASR, we have a large problem. If people are entertained by that, they are ignoring major issues.
 
DUN24 said:
The cars were just going way too slow and the racing was way out of the drivers hands. Get passed? Shuffled out and 10+ spots are lost.

If they can make these cars fast enough where they still use all the track(not sucked to the apron like the ASR), and the draft isn't quite so critical, they may have something.

If this thing rolls out and it looks like the 2018 ASR, we have a large problem. If people are entertained by that, they are ignoring major issues.
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150 more hp. Thats not the same but besides that, I dont know why most even care whats under the hood, or what aero ducts are being used, go to the race, turn on the race and relax and have a good time. People getting spun out over rule changes that havent even hit the track yet is ridiculous.
 
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I don't pretend to know NASCAR's reason behind reduction in horsepower. I look at it from two angles. One, they can't take the aero, the shocks, and other components away that cause these cars to be so aero dependent. But they can reduce horsepower to make aero less of an issue. Two, NASCAR is looking at adding either Honda and/or Nissan and they requested something in the less HP range before they'll commit to coming.
 
MRM said:
I don't pretend to know NASCAR's reason behind reduction in horsepower. I look at it from two angles. One, they can't take the aero, the shocks, and other components away that cause these cars to be so aero dependent. But they can reduce horsepower to make aero less of an issue. Two, NASCAR is looking at adding either Honda and/or Nissan and they requested something in the less HP range before they'll commit to coming.
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If NASCAR gets Honda you'll have another Revman in me. MY HPD powered Hondas.
 
Even if the new rules result in outstanding racing, higher ratings and attendance the "purists" among us will find reasons to hate it. The logical and reasonable thing to do would be to reserve judgment until after dozen or so races and evaluate the racing. how the teams, drivers and NASCAR adapt rather than resort to knee-jerk anger and negativity.
 
DUN24 said:
The cars were just going way too slow and the racing was way out of the drivers hands. Get passed? Shuffled out and 10+ spots are lost.

If they can make these cars fast enough where they still use all the track(not sucked to the apron like the ASR), and the draft isn't quite so critical, they may have something.

If this thing rolls out and it looks like the 2018 ASR, we have a large problem. If people are entertained by that, they are ignoring major issues.
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The trucks have this issue too with what they run on the intermediates. If one truck passes you, expect to lose another 2 or 3 spots. I don't like drafting and momentum racing but 4 times a year, and I especially don't like it at 165 mph like we saw in the ASR.

I will gladly admit if they prove me wrong, but this idea of trying to level the playing field and further randomize the winner every week by making it more of a "right place, right time" contest is not what racing should be about.
 
Spotter22 said:
150 more hp. Thats not the same but besides that, I dont know why most even care whats under the hood, or what aero ducts are being used, go to the race, turn on the race and relax and have a good time. People getting spun out over rule changes that havent even hit the track yet is ridiculous.
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Have fun watching crappy racing, fine maybe you like that most don't.
 
I don't know if it will make the racing better, or not. I'll bet that J.J. will be challenging for more wins next year.
 
IDK if I will like next year's racing or not but it is fun to speculate about and give opinions. If you can't speculate and toss out opinions on an Internet message board where the heck can you?

What bugs me about the changes next year is that they are taking away what only certain very skilled drivers can do and giving that advantage to everyone. To me that line of thinking is fundamentally flawed as you make people better by giving them something to aspire to. Besides the racing has been good this year.

If the changes work for NASCAR and it leads to the overall health of the sport improving the right thing will have been done even if I disagree with it.
 
I've lost count of the number of people who have told me that "plate racing" - not Daytona and Talladega, but "plate racing" itself - is enormously popular, and one would be insane to think NASCAR would ever remove them.

Now in one fell swoop, they've arrived at a base package that eliminates the need for restrictor plates. They announce as if it's a good thing that plates will no longer be used after next year's 500. But I thought plates were hugely popular?

Now it's that reducing power via tapered spacer is superior to reducing power via restrictor plate. This may be true in a minor way, but not fundamentally, or one wouldn't so easily replace the other.
 
Spotter22 said:
If its something you dont like Im sure its gonna be great. Bye, guess we wont be seeing you anymore.. Take care!
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I think the 2019 season will still offer a variety of racing and something for just about everyone.
 
gnomesayin said:
I've lost count of the number of people who have told me that "plate racing" - not Daytona and Talladega, but "plate racing" itself - is enormously popular, and one would be insane to think NASCAR would ever remove them.

Now in one fell swoop, they've arrived at a base package that eliminates the need for restrictor plates. They announce as if it's a good thing that plates will no longer be used after next year's 500. But I thought plates were hugely popular?

Now it's that reducing power via tapered spacer is superior to reducing power via restrictor plate. This may be true in a minor way, but not fundamentally, or one wouldn't so easily replace the other.
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I think people like plate races because of the drama, the potential for wrecks but mainly because the cars are packed together tightly and a guy like Trevor Bayne or David Ragan can win one. The successful drivers are still good at plate tracks but so are the lesser lights and have nots. I'm guessing that sort of thing is what NASCAR is hoping to achieve in 2019 with the changes
 
IanMcVittie said:
IDK if I will like next year's racing or not but it is fun to speculate about and give opinions. If you can't speculate and toss out opinions on an Internet message board where the heck can you?

What bugs me about the changes next year is that they are taking away what only certain very skilled drivers can do and giving that advantage to everyone. To me that line of thinking is fundamentally flawed as you make people better by giving them something to aspire to. Besides the racing has been good this year even if attendance and ratings don't bear it out.

If the changes work for NASCAR and it leads to the overall health of the sport improving the right thing will have been done even if I disagree with it.
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That is if you believe the cars are truly hard to drive on the 1.5's. (while fans clamor for the skill of road racing wanting more and more of the much slower speeds and bumping and banging that the short tracks bring). Until the announcement of the all star races, many of the same who abhor any changes lined up to dish the 1.5's at any opportunity, and many accused the 1.5 tracks for the loss in popularity in the sport because of them. Now the same people have a million reasons to do nothing to change the racing on the 1.5's while the statistics show that passes for the lead and margins of victory are at record low levels.
 
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