NASCAR announces 2019 MENCS rules

So, we are going to have plate racing at 1/2 the tracks, with less horse power, bunching the cars up so they crash more? How long is a race going to last now?
 
Snappy D said:
It’s never been more of a good time for Indy Car to make some headway here, I feel like if they roll out that beast....along with today’s announcement...things are looking optimistic for Indy Car
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I've been vocal in my opposition to this Nascar "entertainment package" since the day of the All Star Race. But I mean, let's not pretend IndyCar has actual good racing. Except for the Indy 500 itself, and Road America, it doesn't have actual good racing. At most tracks, it is mainly a question of getting lucky on the timing of pit stops. And I say this as an IndyCar fan dating back to the late 1950's..:dual9mm:

StandOnIt said:
2015 750HP reduction first year Pole for Vegas 194.683 is this one the high D/F high drag package? right in there with the rest of the reduced horsepower speeds. :idunno: HP and speed doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me as it equates to Nascar anyway.
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I pay no attention to lap speeds in deciding whether the racing is good or not. For the last five years or so, I have focused on the *difference* between peak top speed and minimum valley speed as a key measure of degree of difficulty / car control skill...

2015 Rules: Enter at 200... lift and glide down to 188... stand on the gas again... average speed 195. That is relatively easy.

2018 Rules: Enter at 218... brake hard, rotors glowing... apex at 158... feather the gas seems like forever... finally stand on it... average speed 195. Much harder, separates the contenders from the pretenders.

This is why I favor low downforce and high horsepower. 2019 will be even easier to drive than 2015 in terms of car control. Nascar found the key to good skill-based racing on the fast tracks... and then threw it away. Were they stupid? Were they force by an ignorant, dis-interested public? I don't know which..:idunno:
 
Keep in mind engines had 650-700HP about 20-25 years ago when NASCAR's popularity began to take off. Some pretty good racing back then. We'll see if these new rules translates into that. I'm a bit skeptical, but I'll see how things go halfway into the season.
 
LewTheShoe said:
I've been vocal in my opposition to this Nascar "entertainment package" since the day of the All Star Race. But I mean, let's not pretend IndyCar has actual good racing. Except for the Indy 500 itself, and Road America, it doesn't have actual good racing. At most tracks, it is mainly a question of getting lucky on the timing of pit stops. And I say this as an IndyCar fan dating back to the late 1950's..:dual9mm:


I pay no attention to lap speeds in deciding whether the racing is good or not. For the last five years or so, I have focused on the *difference* between peak top speed and minimum valley speed as a key measure of degree of difficulty / car control skill...

2015 Rules: Enter at 200... lift and glide down to 188... stand on the gas again... average speed 195. That is relatively easy.

2018 Rules: Enter at 218... brake hard, rotors glowing... apex at 158... feather the gas seems like forever... finally stand on it... average speed 195. Much harder, separates the contenders from the pretenders.

This is why I favor low downforce and high horsepower. 2019 will be even easier to drive than 2015 in terms of car control. Nascar found the key to good skill-based racing on the fast tracks... and then threw it away. Were they stupid? Were they force by an ignorant, dis-interested public? I don't know which..:idunno:
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It has more to do with the lower budget teams to be more competitive. Expect to see a new team making the chase or possibly a win.
 
Cwhite48 said:
It has more to do with the lower budget teams to be more competitive. Expect to see a new team making the chase or possibly a win.
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some of the changes will help to tighten up the field up a bit. The reasons for the extension of the splitter skirt underneath the car and the radiator specs is to limit mega teams being able to gain even more of an advantage by making special aero front suspension parts..and probably unobtanium for others at any price and to help even up the balance between front and rear. It should make the cars a bit harder to drive for the stars with the best cars.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is if you believe the cars are truly hard to drive on the 1.5's. (while fans clamor for the skill of road racing wanting more and more of the much slower speeds and bumping and banging that the short tracks bring). Until the announcement of the all star races, many of the same who abhor any changes lined up to dish the 1.5's at any opportunity, and many accused the 1.5 tracks for the loss in popularity in the sport because of them. Now the same people have a million reasons to do nothing to change the racing on the 1.5's while the statistics show that passes for the lead and margins of victory are at record low levels.
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I don't know anything about people waffling on what kind of racing they like but I know I have always been in favor of keeping things as organic as possible. I believe that in most cases slowing down race cars is more of an advantage to inexperienced and less talented drivers because the best of the best often distinguish themselves as the best by fractions of seconds.

As far as 2019 goes I will be watching and give it a chance
 
I usually don’t complain about anything NASCAR do because it’s just entertainment and they don’t pay my bills, BUT THIS NEW RULES CHANGE IS DUMB AS F^#%!!!!!!!! 550 HP **** THE 392 CHARGER IM ABOUT TO GET HAS 475!!! THIS IS SO SO SO DUMB!!! I LIKE WATCHING FAST AND LOUD CARS!! NOT CARS THATS SLOWER THAN THE CARS WE CAN BUY OFF THE LOTS.. I WENT TO THE ALL STAR RACE AND THE CARS LOOKED LIKE THEY WAS MOVING IN SLOW MOTION!!! NO PASSING UNLESS YOU GOT A RUN, NOT EVEN LOOKING FOWARD TO NEXT YEAR NOW! THESE LAST 3 YEARS HAVE BEEN NASCAR NASCAR AND I LOVE THE NFL AND THE NBA THE MOST!! THIS HAS REALLY BEEN BAD NEWS AND I THINK THE WRONG DIRECTION IF U ASK ME! I SPEND ALOT OF MONEY ON NASCAR APPAREL AND GOING TO RACES AND THE WAY ITS LOOKING NOW THIS MIGHT BE MY LAST YEAR DOING SO!!! DUMB NASCAR.
 
Will this new package be the same as the All-Star package?

IMO, the racing has been good this year. Hopefully, the racing will still be good next year.
 
Thegeneral23 said:
I usually don’t complain about anything NASCAR do because it’s just entertainment and they don’t pay my bills, BUT THIS NEW RULES CHANGE IS DUMB AS F^#%!!!!!!!! 550 HP sh!t THE 392 CHARGER IM ABOUT TO GET HAS 475!!! THIS IS SO SO SO DUMB!!! I LIKE WATCHING FAST AND LOUD CARS!! NOT CARS THATS SLOWER THAN THE CARS WE CAN BUY OFF THE LOTS.. I WENT TO THE ALL STAR RACE AND THE CARS LOOKED LIKE THEY WAS MOVING IN SLOW MOTION!!! NO PASSING UNLESS YOU GOT A RUN, NOT EVEN LOOKING FOWARD TO NEXT YEAR NOW! THESE LAST 3 YEARS HAVE BEEN NASCAR NASCAR AND I LOVE THE NFL AND THE NBA THE MOST!! THIS HAS REALLY BEEN BAD NEWS AND I THINK THE WRONG DIRECTION IF U ASK ME! I SPEND ALOT OF MONEY ON NASCAR APPAREL AND GOING TO RACES AND THE WAY ITS LOOKING NOW THIS MIGHT BE MY LAST YEAR DOING SO!!! DUMB NASCAR.
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Quit yelling at me. :mad::mad::mad::mad::p
 
StandOnIt said:
no it is not the same, it has almost 40% more horsepower more than the All Star package.
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I doubt it'll make a difference as far as passing compared to the all star race. TBH, I should be happy they're doing these changes cause it'll benefit hendrick and chevys, but at the same time I'm not a fan of the new package.
 
StandOnIt said:
That is if you believe the cars are truly hard to drive on the 1.5's. (while fans clamor for the skill of road racing wanting more and more of the much slower speeds and bumping and banging that the short tracks bring). Until the announcement of the all star races, many of the same who abhor any changes lined up to dish the 1.5's at any opportunity, and many accused the 1.5 tracks for the loss in popularity in the sport because of them.
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SOI, what you say here is absolutely true, and it's probably the root cause behind this abrupt change in Nascar's racing philosophy. Many fans, indeed most fans who are on social media, have complained endlessly about racing on the 1.5ers and other downforce tracks. Pejorative terms like "cookie cutters" are bandied about. In various polls, these races are scored lower, and comments about "aero push" and "clean air is king" are used more out of habit than any objective viewing of the on-track proceedings.

I've felt like a guy on a deserted island every time I've extolled the 1.5ers as the "heart and soul" of Nascar racing, and every time I've mentioned the beauty and intensity and skills required to race the downforce tracks. The stereotypical Nascar fan seems to relish beating and banging... and really nothing else.

Even in the last two years, as the low downforce philosophy began to achieve real fruition, the acceptance of the product has been only marginally better by social media, while audience interest has continued to wain. This illustrates the difficulty of listening to Nascar fans and trying to give them what they seem to want. I admit Nascar is in a very tough place.

I still think they gave up too soon on skill-based low downforce racing. But I'm aware that I'm a dinosaur, along with some others. I'm not sure there are enough of us who appreciate Nascar as a sporting contest of skill to keep the lights on.
 
LewTheShoe said:
SOI, what you say here is absolutely true, and it's probably the root cause behind this abrupt change in Nascar's racing philosophy. Many fans, indeed most fans who are on social media, have complained endlessly about racing on the 1.5ers and other downforce tracks. Pejorative terms like "cookie cutters" are bandied about. In various polls, these races are scored lower, and comments about "aero push" and "clean air is king" are used more out of habit than any objective viewing of the on-track proceedings.

I've felt like a guy on a deserted island every time I've extolled the 1.5ers as the "heart and soul" of Nascar racing, and every time I've mentioned the beauty and intensity and skills required to race the downforce tracks. The stereotypical Nascar fan seems to relish beating and banging... and really nothing else.

Even in the last two years, as the low downforce philosophy began to achieve real fruition, the acceptance of the product has been only marginally better by social media, while audience interest has continued to wain. This illustrates the difficulty of listening to Nascar fans and trying to give them what they seem to want. I admit Nascar is in a very tough place.

I still think they gave up too soon on skill-based low downforce racing. But I'm aware that I'm a dinosaur, along with some others. I'm not sure there are enough of us who appreciate Nascar as a sporting contest of skill to keep the lights on.
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Let's talk about these mad skills these drivers have for a moment and how terribly skillful these drivers are. Once upon a time there were these two backmarker drivers. Nobody really paid any attention to them, they drove for small teams, scraped up enough money to race and were barely fast enough to make the field. One day a fairy appeared and said to them, if I grant you one wish what would it be. The first driver said I want to drive a fast car and win a big race and poof he wakes up driving a really fast car and he wins the race beating one of the top candy land drivers in the series. She gives the other driver the same wish, and poof he is leading a big race when one of the top drivers crowds him forcing him to hit the wall and in return in his anger and disappointment he wrecks the top driver afterwards. He goes back to the fairy and he begs for one more chance. She says it is a good story kind watermelon man, yes I will give you another wish and poof he is back in a fast car and he wins the race.
 
I am not sure I how feel about the 2019 package yet, for most part, I feel the racing has been decent for most of the races this year , I guess its a wait see approach for me right now.
 
Don’t matter to me which way it goes.
Nobody knows what 2019 brings. If the changes don’t have their intended affect there will just be more changes and possibly more gimmicks.
I’m already down to 26 races per year minus the plate tracks and now the roval. I don’t have high expectations for the direction of the sport.
 
LewTheShoe said:
SOI, what you say here is absolutely true, and it's probably the root cause behind this abrupt change in Nascar's racing philosophy. Many fans, indeed most fans who are on social media, have complained endlessly about racing on the 1.5ers and other downforce tracks. Pejorative terms like "cookie cutters" are bandied about. In various polls, these races are scored lower, and comments about "aero push" and "clean air is king" are used more out of habit than any objective viewing of the on-track proceedings.

I've felt like a guy on a deserted island every time I've extolled the 1.5ers as the "heart and soul" of Nascar racing, and every time I've mentioned the beauty and intensity and skills required to race the downforce tracks. The stereotypical Nascar fan seems to relish beating and banging... and really nothing else.

Even in the last two years, as the low downforce philosophy began to achieve real fruition, the acceptance of the product has been only marginally better by social media, while audience interest has continued to wain. This illustrates the difficulty of listening to Nascar fans and trying to give them what they seem to want. I admit Nascar is in a very tough place.

I still think they gave up too soon on skill-based low downforce racing. But I'm aware that I'm a dinosaur, along with some others. I'm not sure there are enough of us who appreciate Nascar as a sporting contest of skill to keep the lights on.
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I think what you say illustrates the pickle NASCAR is in. Who do they listen to and who is the arbiter of what is good or what the masses will consume? I can bring up item after item where I think NASCAR has erred but those things have all been said in many different places so what is the point?

I don't think anyone including NASCAR knows what current and prospective fans want in a race or the series. I also think NASCAR is under the gun from its broadcast partners and the lack of good paying sponsors must be a concern. It seems as if NASCAR has a hair trigger and ushers in wholesale changes prior to giving things a chance to gel. From my point of view it doesn't look like NASCAR has any cohesive plan and certainly little that remains intact.
 
IanMcVittie said:
I think what you say illustrates the pickle NASCAR is in. Who do they listen to and who is the arbiter of what is good or what the masses will consume? I can bring up item after item where I think NASCAR has erred but those things have all been said in many different places so what is the point?

I don't think anyone including NASCAR knows what current and prospective fans want in a race or the series. I also think NASCAR is under the gun from its broadcast partners and the lack of good paying sponsors must be a concern. It seems as if NASCAR has a hair trigger and ushers in wholesale changes prior to giving things a chance to gel. From my point of view it doesn't look like NASCAR has any cohesive plan and certainly little that remains intact.
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Lack of good paying sponsors?

NASCAR Sponsorships Show That While A Few Have Left, Blue-Chips Are Still Drawn To Racing
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mauryb...lue-chips-still-drawn-to-racing/#4ed79db31145
 
StandOnIt said:
Let's talk about these mad skills these drivers have for a moment and how terribly skillful these drivers are. Once upon a time there were these two backmarker drivers. Nobody really paid any attention to them, they drove for small teams, scraped up enough money to race and were barely fast enough to make the field. One day a fairy appeared and said to them, if I grant you one wish what would it be. The first driver said I want to drive a fast car and win a big race and poof he wakes up driving a really fast car and he wins the race beating one of the top candy land drivers in the series. She gives the other driver the same wish, and poof he is leading a big race when one of the top drivers crowds him forcing him to hit the wall and in return in his anger and disappointment he wrecks the top driver afterwards. He goes back to the fairy and he begs for one more chance. She says it is a good story kind watermelon man, yes I will give you another wish and poof he is back in a fast car and he wins the race.
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Ummm what?
 
LewTheShoe said:
SOI, what you say here is absolutely true, and it's probably the root cause behind this abrupt change in Nascar's racing philosophy. Many fans, indeed most fans who are on social media, have complained endlessly about racing on the 1.5ers and other downforce tracks. Pejorative terms like "cookie cutters" are bandied about. In various polls, these races are scored lower, and comments about "aero push" and "clean air is king" are used more out of habit than any objective viewing of the on-track proceedings.

I've felt like a guy on a deserted island every time I've extolled the 1.5ers as the "heart and soul" of Nascar racing, and every time I've mentioned the beauty and intensity and skills required to race the downforce tracks. The stereotypical Nascar fan seems to relish beating and banging... and really nothing else.

Even in the last two years, as the low downforce philosophy began to achieve real fruition, the acceptance of the product has been only marginally better by social media, while audience interest has continued to wain. This illustrates the difficulty of listening to Nascar fans and trying to give them what they seem to want. I admit Nascar is in a very tough place.

I still think they gave up too soon on skill-based low downforce racing. But I'm aware that I'm a dinosaur, along with some others. I'm not sure there are enough of us who appreciate Nascar as a sporting contest of skill to keep the lights on.
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Agree 100%
 
MRM said:
Keep in mind engines had 650-700HP about 20-25 years ago when NASCAR's popularity began to take off. Some pretty good racing back then. We'll see if these new rules translates into that. I'm a bit skeptical, but I'll see how things go halfway into the season.
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The cars were also off the ground, had minimal downforce, and teams weren't handcuffed with rules as to how the cars were set up.
 
Hmm, so sounds like we can now will have "The Big One" everywhere except the road courses...
 
RacerrecaR said:
The cars were also off the ground, had minimal downforce, and teams weren't handcuffed with rules as to how the cars were set up.
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2002

s-l300.jpg
 
Thegeneral23 said:
I usually don’t complain about anything NASCAR do because it’s just entertainment and they don’t pay my bills, BUT THIS NEW RULES CHANGE IS DUMB AS F^#%!!!!!!!! 550 HP sh!t THE 392 CHARGER IM ABOUT TO GET HAS 475!!! THIS IS SO SO SO DUMB!!! I LIKE WATCHING FAST AND LOUD CARS!! NOT CARS THATS SLOWER THAN THE CARS WE CAN BUY OFF THE LOTS.. I WENT TO THE ALL STAR RACE AND THE CARS LOOKED LIKE THEY WAS MOVING IN SLOW MOTION!!! NO PASSING UNLESS YOU GOT A RUN, NOT EVEN LOOKING FOWARD TO NEXT YEAR NOW! THESE LAST 3 YEARS HAVE BEEN NASCAR NASCAR AND I LOVE THE NFL AND THE NBA THE MOST!! THIS HAS REALLY BEEN BAD NEWS AND I THINK THE WRONG DIRECTION IF U ASK ME! I SPEND ALOT OF MONEY ON NASCAR APPAREL AND GOING TO RACES AND THE WAY ITS LOOKING NOW THIS MIGHT BE MY LAST YEAR DOING SO!!! DUMB NASCAR.
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giphy.gif
 
Cwhite48 said:
I doubt it'll make a difference as far as passing compared to the all star race. TBH, I should be happy they're doing these changes cause it'll benefit hendrick and chevys, but at the same time I'm not a fan of the new package.
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Not really. Hendrick had a horsepower advantage before NASCAR implemented the tapered spacers (to allegedly appease a certain manufacturer). Going back to 2014 style packages would benefit HMS and Chevy. Stripping away horsepower, as they've done, only magnifies chassis advantages such as those found by SHR and JGR. I'm vainly hoping that the silver lining is that the reduced horsepower slows them enough that the corner speed advantages the aforementioned teams have enjoyed (through brilliant engineering, credit where credit is due) are nullified by cars being able to hold turns wide open. In actuality, it may magnify the handling disparity because 1 mph corner advantage is more significant at 175 than at 195...
 
StandOnIt said:
Lack of good paying sponsors?

NASCAR Sponsorships Show That While A Few Have Left, Blue-Chips Are Still Drawn To Racing
https://www.forbes.com/sites/mauryb...lue-chips-still-drawn-to-racing/#4ed79db31145
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I think a better way for me to have expressed my point would have been to say that sponsors involved with NASCAR spend far less than in previous years. The title sponsor used to be worth 75 million per year and then it dropped to 20 million per and in the future there won't even be one.
 
NASCAR has marginalized the OEM.....A more practical approach to their goal of the attention to the driver would be spec (go all the way with the marginalization), but they are either chicken ****, or too stupid for that. The COT marginalized the OEM as well. Boy, that worked out well.

On another note....Big changes. All eggs in one basket. Just a few short years ago, we listened as Farmer Carl told us that stripping downforce was the way to go. Racin' wasn't fancy enough for some. Now, a completely different direction. The message here.....NASCAR hasn't gotten it right yet. What makes us think that this is the deal? They are chasing their asses to appease fans that don't exist. The fans that are here, don't have a clue as to what they want...."We will know great racing when we see it."---bull****. So, NASCAR throws a Hail Mary hoping to hit something, find someone, and fix something that was never broken. Good ****** luck. I will still be here, but I'm not sure how many will be lost over this. This isn't just stupid. This is irresponsible.
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
Not really. Hendrick had a horsepower advantage before NASCAR implemented the tapered spacers (to allegedly appease a certain manufacturer). Going back to 2014 style packages would benefit HMS and Chevy. Stripping away horsepower, as they've done, only magnifies chassis advantages such as those found by SHR and JGR. I'm vainly hoping that the silver lining is that the reduced horsepower slows them enough that the corner speed advantages the aforementioned teams have enjoyed (through brilliant engineering, credit where credit is due) are nullified by cars being able to hold turns wide open. In actuality, it may magnify the handling disparity because 1 mph corner advantage is more significant at 175 than at 195...
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I don't really follow the rules and specs much, but I was going based on the all Star race compared to the rest of the year performance wise. I do agree with your post though.
 
Revman said:
NASCAR has marginalized the OEM.....A more practical approach to their goal of the attention to the driver would be spec (go all the way with the marginalization), but they are either chicken sh!t, or too stupid for that. The COT marginalized the OEM as well. Boy, that worked out well.

On another note....Big changes. All eggs in one basket. Just a few short years ago, we listened as Farmer Carl told us that stripping downforce was the way to go. Racin' wasn't fancy enough for some. Now, a completely different direction. The message here.....NASCAR hasn't gotten it right yet. What makes us think that this is the deal? They are chasing their asses to appease fans that don't exist. The fans that are here, don't have a clue as to what they want...."We will know great racing when we see it."---bull****. So, NASCAR throws a Hail Mary hoping to hit something, find someone, and fix something that was never broken. Good ******* luck. I will still be here, but I'm not sure how many will be lost over this. This isn't just stupid. This is irresponsible.
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Very good point. The passion generated in fans of an OEM (like yourself) have been discarded completely. I don't want "stock cars" as I know that's irrational. What I do miss are the late 80's to early 90s when the OEMs were distinct and you could go to a testing session and see primer painted cars with no badging or decals and instantly tell a Ford from a Chevy from a Dodge. You would really struggle today to do that without any grille, headlight, or badging decals. (I know there are differences in hoods and the Toyota does, to its credit, have a distinct shape to the street car ducting on the corners of the nose, but work with me) Combine that with a generation of prospective "fans" that NASCAR desperately needs to capture being taught that cars are something that, at worst are evil and pollute the earth, or at best a status symbol, yadda yadda and it's a downward spiral. I'm 40 and may be in the last true generation of car culture and fandom, which makes me kinda sad.
 
^^^I am seeing commercials for no brand in particular so somebody either our Gov't or somebody who stands to reap the benefits like the power grid saying electric cars are fun. Fun? like watching cell phone batteries fun? Find a charger fun?
 
I like the fact that these rules have never raced and yet so many can tell you right now how wrong this is. I suggest you back away from reading anything Nascar
 
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