M
Mopardh9
Guest
So by being consistent Jr would win, not by winning races, isn't that the way the old system worked?
NASCAR considering radical changes to playoff system
- Thread starter HoneyBadger
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He would have had to race the other 3 finalists and beat them.....essentially a WIN.
He would have had to race them in the semi's too.
Actually the last 10 races are going to show a totally more aggressive style IMO.
I wonder how much a ticket price is to the Grand Final?
clarkfn2284
Here to make you miserable.
Going back a few pages slicedbread has it correct.
There are clearly more non fans of NASCAR then there are fans. So if they were to draw in 5% of the 100 million non fans it would be more then the 10% of the fans that watch. Plus we all kow that the fans that do watch are not going ot stop watching. A lot of noise from a bunch of people who wont exercise their right to turn it off. The logic used by France is correct, but the reality of it being that much of a difference is unlikely.
As for people watching over football on Sundays, we all know that wont happen, but there is this miraculous device called DVR. SO at the end of the day they still get the ratings and people still will watch. I never watch a race live with the exception of the 500.
The new system doesnt reward a driver for one good race. It requires them to either A) win a race during the season and remain in the top 30 in points or
finsih in the top 16 in points. Then they have to still perform well for the 3 races or win one of the three in the challenger round, do the same in the contender round and so on and so forth. Does it provide an opportunity for someone like a David Gilliland to win a race early in the year and make the chase? Yes. Is it likely that that team is going to string together 10 what you would assume would need to be top 12 performances or win 1 race in every new round to adavnce to the final race at Homestead? No. So the idea that a Wild Card team is going to slide in and then get hot is ridiculous. That just doesnt happen. If someone gets hot it will be a team and driver that has contended throughout the season. It is going to be extremely rare that someone would have a Denny Hamlin type of season from last year and grab a late win to get in while still remaining in the top 30 in points and then that very same team that has had a garbage season will suddenly become so consistent and lucky that they will put together a final 10 race stretch so good they will win a championship. Its also unlikey that a team will win 1 race every 3 races. It just doesnt happen all that often. Someone would need to win 3 out of 9 to get in the final race and have a chance. If they did that it will more than likely be a serious contending team.
It adds a ton of drama to the races and it provides an opportunity and a reason for everyone involved to give it everything to win.Lets just say that the 15th placed car in race #3 of the challenger race gets a win. Then they would advance. We could never have seen that team having a shot at anything before this change. It provides them in that race something to race for.
Reality of it is that the final four cars at Homestead are going to have earned the right to be there unless somehow someway the 25th placed car in the points race wins one race in the first 26 then 1 in each round of the chase. Even if that is the case it is earned.
There are clearly more non fans of NASCAR then there are fans. So if they were to draw in 5% of the 100 million non fans it would be more then the 10% of the fans that watch. Plus we all kow that the fans that do watch are not going ot stop watching. A lot of noise from a bunch of people who wont exercise their right to turn it off. The logic used by France is correct, but the reality of it being that much of a difference is unlikely.
As for people watching over football on Sundays, we all know that wont happen, but there is this miraculous device called DVR. SO at the end of the day they still get the ratings and people still will watch. I never watch a race live with the exception of the 500.
The new system doesnt reward a driver for one good race. It requires them to either A) win a race during the season and remain in the top 30 in points or
finsih in the top 16 in points. Then they have to still perform well for the 3 races or win one of the three in the challenger round, do the same in the contender round and so on and so forth. Does it provide an opportunity for someone like a David Gilliland to win a race early in the year and make the chase? Yes. Is it likely that that team is going to string together 10 what you would assume would need to be top 12 performances or win 1 race in every new round to adavnce to the final race at Homestead? No. So the idea that a Wild Card team is going to slide in and then get hot is ridiculous. That just doesnt happen. If someone gets hot it will be a team and driver that has contended throughout the season. It is going to be extremely rare that someone would have a Denny Hamlin type of season from last year and grab a late win to get in while still remaining in the top 30 in points and then that very same team that has had a garbage season will suddenly become so consistent and lucky that they will put together a final 10 race stretch so good they will win a championship. Its also unlikey that a team will win 1 race every 3 races. It just doesnt happen all that often. Someone would need to win 3 out of 9 to get in the final race and have a chance. If they did that it will more than likely be a serious contending team.It adds a ton of drama to the races and it provides an opportunity and a reason for everyone involved to give it everything to win.Lets just say that the 15th placed car in race #3 of the challenger race gets a win. Then they would advance. We could never have seen that team having a shot at anything before this change. It provides them in that race something to race for.
Reality of it is that the final four cars at Homestead are going to have earned the right to be there unless somehow someway the 25th placed car in the points race wins one race in the first 26 then 1 in each round of the chase. Even if that is the case it is earned.
ToyYoda
Team Owner
I've been hearing a lot of people saying "we needed to shake things up", but does anybody really think this goofy new Chase format is the magic wand that is going to cure all of NASCAR's ills? Do you think droves of non-NASCAR fans are going to be sitting in front of the TV for an aero-push cookie cutter race in June or July and say "Wow, this didn't excite me before, but it does now because nobody matters but the winner and there are elimination rounds when we get to the playoffs!" Probably not.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
Well they did make some rule changes so hopefully those tracks won't be so aero pushy
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
"The point is that many purists will never again like NASCAR until we paint everything red and white, light up our Winston’s and head back to North Wilkesboro twice a year. Sorry ladies and gentlemen but we will never again see Richard Petty roaring around the Rock sucking on a towel looking to win another race. The points system changed in 2004 and many were in an uproar; yet ratings did increase; and more people outside the sport took an interest. No matter who is standing on the highest podium at Homestead or who wins the “Race to Richmond” and whatever it is NASCAR will hype, one basic fact is not going to change; the racing in the track. NASCAR has made strides with the new Gen 6 car and it still needs some work, but you haven’t seen any radical changes there; no huge swipes at the way the flags fall or the laps are run. That’s because no matter how radical NASCAR changes things outside the track core product has stayed essentially the same. Sure how we will line up has changed and who gets to set at the head table at the championship banquet is a question mark, but we know that when the green flag falls at whatever track it is 43 of the worlds best racers will try and win that single race, and in the end as long as that never changes we will always have NASCAR. NASCAR will move forward like other sports have, but at its core will always remain the same. And that’s what everyone needs to remember. Now let’s go racing."
-Larry McReynolds
That's what I said
lol
From here
-Larry McReynolds
That's what I said
lolFrom here
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I've been thinking about the changing that is going one for some time.
Traditionalists want minimal changes --- I consider myself a traditionalist. However, I am also a realist and somewhat pragmatic.
We live in a new era --- the era of instant knowledge at our fingertips and instant gratification. Today's population wants speedy everything.
Qualifying needed changing because it was dry as dust and about as interesting as drying paint.
The race-off system does have good points. It gets the drivers/crews up on their toes with elbows up ---- it's deliver the goods or you're out.
I'm hoping it does the trick --- putting butts in the seats and eyes on the TV. If it can do that, maybe our sport will survive --- because if it
kept on being the sport of 50 years ago, it wasn't going to make it. We could be forced back into the dark ages of very little coverage and only snippets
of races on TV sports on some obscure channel.
I, for one, will have my butt in my recliner and my eyes on the TV. I will continue to buy sponsors products when I can and support my chosen sport in
whatever way I can.
Traditionalists want minimal changes --- I consider myself a traditionalist. However, I am also a realist and somewhat pragmatic.
We live in a new era --- the era of instant knowledge at our fingertips and instant gratification. Today's population wants speedy everything.
Qualifying needed changing because it was dry as dust and about as interesting as drying paint.
The race-off system does have good points. It gets the drivers/crews up on their toes with elbows up ---- it's deliver the goods or you're out.
I'm hoping it does the trick --- putting butts in the seats and eyes on the TV. If it can do that, maybe our sport will survive --- because if it
kept on being the sport of 50 years ago, it wasn't going to make it. We could be forced back into the dark ages of very little coverage and only snippets
of races on TV sports on some obscure channel.
I, for one, will have my butt in my recliner and my eyes on the TV. I will continue to buy sponsors products when I can and support my chosen sport in
whatever way I can.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
I wouldn't think too much, there were empty seats around me at Homestead last year with three drivers in contention (obviously not tied going in) so I don't think they'll go up a lot.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
Another thing I like is it gives drivers a chance to come back from a bad race in the chase.. but only if they win in the next race or two. Look for thedrivers who have problems in the first or second race of an elimination round to be more aggressive for the following race(s).
But I wonder how long it will still be held at Homestead?
HoneyBadger
I love short track racing (Taylor's Version)
I like the new points system because, even if the drivers don't win the races, they're going to have to drive harder. It's no longer 26 races to get in and then another 10 races to win the championship. Now, every race in the Chase matters. Having four top-10 finishes doesn't guarantee that you advance to the next round. The drivers on the bubble might have to take a chance to pass another guy for seventh instead of just taking it easy and cruising to a top-10 finish and staying in contention. Not to mention, a lot more of the underdog teams that don't have big corporate sponsors and don't get the media spotlight will take more chances to try to win a race and make the Chase. It would help them immensely with sponsorship and stuff like that.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
Unless Bruton has something up his sleeve, I would think for the foreseeable future. They're going to want to have NASCAR Bowl at an ISC track, I would think.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
I'd like to see some more exhibition races.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
I hope this happens. Talladega could've helped Front Row a lot.
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Larry Mac got the word, "you need us more than we need you"."The point is that many purists will never again like NASCAR until we paint everything red and white, light up our Winston’s and head back to North Wilkesboro twice a year. Sorry ladies and gentlemen but we will never again see Richard Petty roaring around the Rock sucking on a towel looking to win another race. The points system changed in 2004 and many were in an uproar; yet ratings did increase; and more people outside the sport took an interest. No matter who is standing on the highest podium at Homestead or who wins the “Race to Richmond” and whatever it is NASCAR will hype, one basic fact is not going to change; the racing in the track. NASCAR has made strides with the new Gen 6 car and it still needs some work, but you haven’t seen any radical changes there; no huge swipes at the way the flags fall or the laps are run. That’s because no matter how radical NASCAR changes things outside the track core product has stayed essentially the same. Sure how we will line up has changed and who gets to set at the head table at the championship banquet is a question mark, but we know that when the green flag falls at whatever track it is 43 of the worlds best racers will try and win that single race, and in the end as long as that never changes we will always have NASCAR. NASCAR will move forward like other sports have, but at its core will always remain the same. And that’s what everyone needs to remember. Now let’s go racing."
-Larry McReynolds
That's what I said
From here
HoneyBadger
I love short track racing (Taylor's Version)
I've ALWAYS felt that a win should automatically clinch you a Chase berth. Someone winning a race or even multiple races and not making the Chase is just grotesque. Three times in the last six years, the winner of the Daytona 500 wasn't in the Chase. That's just embarrassing.
FLRacingFan
Team Owner
What about in 2010 when Jamie won the two biggest races and didn't get in...at least that will be fixed now.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
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M
mreed
Guest
Going back a few pages slicedbread has it correct.
There are clearly more non fans of NASCAR then there are fans. So if they were to draw in 5% of the 100 million non fans it would be more then the 10% of the fans that watch. Plus we all kow that the fans that do watch are not going ot stop watching. A lot of noise from a bunch of people who wont exercise their right to turn it off. The logic used by France is correct, but the reality of it being that much of a difference is unlikely.
As for people watching over football on Sundays, we all know that wont happen, but there is this miraculous device called DVR. SO at the end of the day they still get the ratings and people still will watch. I never watch a race live with the exception of the 500.
The new system doesnt reward a driver for one good race. It requires them to either A) win a race during the season and remain in the top 30 in points or
It adds a ton of drama to the races and it provides an opportunity and a reason for everyone involved to give it everything to win.Lets just say that the 15th placed car in race #3 of the challenger race gets a win. Then they would advance. We could never have seen that team having a shot at anything before this change. It provides them in that race something to race for.
Reality of it is that the final four cars at Homestead are going to have earned the right to be there unless somehow someway the 25th placed car in the points race wins one race in the first 26 then 1 in each round of the chase. Even if that is the case it is earned.
The 100 million non-fans/potential fans is based on what exactly? Is 100 million non-fans an actual statistic of non-fans/potential nascar fans, or is it just some number arbitrary pulled out of thin air to make a case?
May as well say 5% of 200 million, or 500 million non fans.
Also, I'd think if this new format does draw in some new fans because of the "excitement" of the final race, it would only be to see what happens in that final race, and not any new fan that would watch races throughout the year.
As far as Larry Mac's statement, to say the fans expect things to go back to the way they were in the Winston Cup days is absurd.
It's funny that most of the people raking in millions from/because of nascar seem to like the new format and are out there selling it, while most of the people that have no financial interest in nascar... AKA the fans... don't like this at all.
Admit I don't know much about the place but the name does nothing to create a feeling of excitement.
Similar to Sleepy Hollow, Green Acres or Whispering Pines.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
I love how you think the numbers matter... it doesn't matter what the exact numbers are... No one thinks we mean that we know its that many people. Of course they are not actual stats... they are just numbers thrown out there.. chances are the number of fans compared to non fans is actually a much larger difference... which would actually make my point even more true... but now I've probably gone and confused you again.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
I haven't missed a race since the first time I watched a full race... and it wasn't even that exciting... it was a fuel mileage race.. so if some of these non fans do tune in and watch the finale andits a good race.. I wouldn't be surprised in any way whatsoever if at least a good portion of them kept watching......
SpeedPagan
The iRacing Guru
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So this is my official opinion on the new playoff system.
I'll be first to admit that originally I was a fan of The Chase, the fact that my driver won six Championship under the system didn't exactly hurt my opinion on The Chase. However, Richmond of 2013 changed my opinion on The Chase. Now if NASCAR had just handed out fines and points deduction and left it alone, I'd probably be a little bit more receptive of this new format. However, NASCAR had to go and **** with The Chase format, adding Jeff Gordon in The Chase, creating a special 13th spot just for him. It was after that point that NASCAR exposed The Chase for the farce that it is, that it always had been and always will be.
I know what NASCAR and Brian France is going for, however what they've failed to realize is that you just can't manufacturer excitement. The best Championship battle I've ever witness was 2011 between Carl Edwards and Tony Stewart. It was Consistency vs. Wins, which one was the superior way to win a Championship? Tony Stewart won that battle and honestly he earned it under that system. I wanted Carl Edwards to win because I'm a consistency guy, but it just wasn't meant to be.
The talk, the excitement, the discussion that battle generated came about naturally. It wasn't anything done by NASCAR or the track owners, it was a gods to honest battle between two drivers. I think that's the key to creating excitement on the track, NASCAR need to take a hands off approach. They need to stop meddling so damn much and let things fall out the way they should. No, you're not going to get a 7th game moment every year, but that's just a small aspect of auto racing.
The best way to generate gods to honest excitement is to re-implement "Boys Have At It". Stop fining drivers thousands of dollars for speaking their minds, stop punishing them for having fights or scuffles. One thing that every sport has is rivalries, when was the last time NASCAR had a good rivalry? Let drivers go at it, introduce some good ol' fashion short track racing attitudes!
Also, please, go back to the pre-Chase system or at least go to a system that's a balance between consistency and wins. Yes, wins should count a little bit more, but there's something to be said for the driver that can put up top five, top ten finishes week in and week out.
In short, stop it with the gimmicks, let the drivers off of their leash and implement a more natural points system that rewards wins as well as consistency.
I'll be first to admit that originally I was a fan of The Chase, the fact that my driver won six Championship under the system didn't exactly hurt my opinion on The Chase. However, Richmond of 2013 changed my opinion on The Chase. Now if NASCAR had just handed out fines and points deduction and left it alone, I'd probably be a little bit more receptive of this new format. However, NASCAR had to go and **** with The Chase format, adding Jeff Gordon in The Chase, creating a special 13th spot just for him. It was after that point that NASCAR exposed The Chase for the farce that it is, that it always had been and always will be.
I know what NASCAR and Brian France is going for, however what they've failed to realize is that you just can't manufacturer excitement. The best Championship battle I've ever witness was 2011 between Carl Edwards and Tony Stewart. It was Consistency vs. Wins, which one was the superior way to win a Championship? Tony Stewart won that battle and honestly he earned it under that system. I wanted Carl Edwards to win because I'm a consistency guy, but it just wasn't meant to be.
The talk, the excitement, the discussion that battle generated came about naturally. It wasn't anything done by NASCAR or the track owners, it was a gods to honest battle between two drivers. I think that's the key to creating excitement on the track, NASCAR need to take a hands off approach. They need to stop meddling so damn much and let things fall out the way they should. No, you're not going to get a 7th game moment every year, but that's just a small aspect of auto racing.
The best way to generate gods to honest excitement is to re-implement "Boys Have At It". Stop fining drivers thousands of dollars for speaking their minds, stop punishing them for having fights or scuffles. One thing that every sport has is rivalries, when was the last time NASCAR had a good rivalry? Let drivers go at it, introduce some good ol' fashion short track racing attitudes!
Also, please, go back to the pre-Chase system or at least go to a system that's a balance between consistency and wins. Yes, wins should count a little bit more, but there's something to be said for the driver that can put up top five, top ten finishes week in and week out.
In short, stop it with the gimmicks, let the drivers off of their leash and implement a more natural points system that rewards wins as well as consistency.
[quote="SpeedPagan, post: 720091, member: 4879
Also, please, go back to the pre-Chase system or at least go to a system that's a balance between consistency and wins. Yes, wins should count a little bit more, but there's something to be said for the driver that can put up top five, top ten finishes week in and week out.
[/quote]
Under the old system consistency was needed to win. Because of the points system you didn't HAVE to win....right Matt?
That doesn't automatically make it exciting. In fact we heard so much belly aching against "points racing" from nascar fans prolly peaking around 05, 06,07 that it put one off reading the boards.
Even changes made the the points didn't go quite far enough IMO.
Lets see what happens this year....not much we can do about it now
Also, please, go back to the pre-Chase system or at least go to a system that's a balance between consistency and wins. Yes, wins should count a little bit more, but there's something to be said for the driver that can put up top five, top ten finishes week in and week out.
[/quote]
Under the old system consistency was needed to win. Because of the points system you didn't HAVE to win....right Matt?
That doesn't automatically make it exciting. In fact we heard so much belly aching against "points racing" from nascar fans prolly peaking around 05, 06,07 that it put one off reading the boards.
Even changes made the the points didn't go quite far enough IMO.
Lets see what happens this year....not much we can do about it now
SpeedPagan
The iRacing Guru
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Its true that you could've won under the old system without a win, but you know what, at least it was real, it wasn't some gimmick bull**** thought up by Brian France while he was doing speedballs with Vince McMahon in a hotel room.
Not every season is going to have a 7th game moment, many season is going to have a boring championship battle, that's just the nature of the sport, the nature of any sport. Do you think NFL radically changes their championship system every time they have a boring Super Bowl? **** no, and they've had plenty of boring Super Bowls!
clarkfn2284
Here to make you miserable.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/steveodland/2012/02/27/nascars-back/
well based on this forbes link from 2012 1 in 3 adults are fans of Nascar or 75 million. 10% of 75 million is 7.5 million. If by going by the 1 in 3 adult ratio there would be 225 million adults. 5% of the non fans(150 million) is also 7.5 million. The US population in Dec. 2012 was estimated at over 315 million, an additional 90 million people. Not being able to know how many of them are currently adults and seeing the declining interest in Nascar as a whole over the past 2 years its very safe to assume that if the aforementioned scenario were to occurr the added non fans would in fact out weigh the loss of current fans. Clearly a hypothetical situation, but true and it really isnt had to understand that. It's simple mathematics. It also isnt hard to understand this logic used. I work in a numbers business and when you are proposing goals or trying to show statistical data this logic 100% supports that line of thinking.
This doesnt even take into account the global branding of NASCAR with drivers like JPM, Max Papis, Nelson Piquet Jr, Marcos Ambrose, Dexter Stacy, Ron Fellows, Miguel Paludo, German Quiroga and the fact that the NAtionwide series goes to Mexico City........Add the world population as these frivers to bring in an international market to the sport and it absolutely isnt even close.
Hopefully this is enough proof for you to understand what Slicedbread is trying to show. He is right though the numbers dont matter because they are right. No matter how you slice it, they can generate more fans if the line of thinking being debated worked.
SpeedPagan
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Lets hope this one isn't.
Too bad it isn't being held in Colorado or Washington, I'm sure if it was, everyone would fail the drug test.
Tennessee Racing
Formerly Stewart Fan
I don't really have a problem with the win and you're in part of it. It's the points reset that is stupid.
M
mreed
Guest
ok, could have just posted the Forbes link to the 75 million nascar fans number.
tl;dr version...
75 million nascar fans
If nascar loses 10% of fans due to the new format... 7.5 million fans lost
Adult U.S population about 311,000,000
1 in 4 US adults are nascar fans, leaving over 200 million non-fans.
5% of 200 million... 10 million
net gain 2.5 million fans..... Yes, the hypothetical numbers work.
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Nice tie in.
ToyYoda
Team Owner
That's 74,999,993 fans that didn't show up for the Brickyard 400 last year.
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I was a no show last year but I was there in 2012. It was a lot of fun except for who won the race.
clarkfn2284
Here to make you miserable.
The reason why I over explained it was because you were the one who continued to bring up the 100 million as a false number as a way to debate the logic being used. Sorry I provided too many facts regarding the topic, but words matter to me and I dont like to just say stuff as if it were true. Even with the Hypotheticals working we all know that the new changes wont generate that much mainstream attention to the actual product and the fanbase of NASCAR will not change all that much. NASCAR has reached its ceiling in my opinion. Unfortunately it flurished from the death of Earnhardt and had buzz for many years after the fact. Now its an after thought to anyone who wasnt a fan to begin with.
M
mreed
Guest
No worries.
It seemed like Bread was just pulling numbers out of thin air, but I see that the number could work to nascar's advantage if they get the 5%.
I'm doubtful they will however, but time will tell.
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
SlicedBread22
#TeamJL
I was pulling the numbers out of thin air.. they were estimates... hypothetical..... It was the logic behind the idea I was trying to get across and that I believe this is the train of thought that brought NASCAR to some of these decisions.
One thing you can count on with "win and you're in"...we will see a lot more guys running out of gas at the end of races now. May as well roll the dice if you are close on fuel and hope there's no G-W-Cs.
K
