NASCAR considering radical changes to playoff system

StoneTown said:
Yeah, Nascar is well behind the top team sports in America. Everybody knows that. This isn't a new thing.
If you compare top events then the top NFL, College football, NBA, College basketball, and MLB all draw more viewers than the top Nascar event.
Most people aren't Nascar fans. Motorsports are a niche sports.

Of course, Nascar peaks higher than horse racing, golf, NHL, soccer, tennis, UFC, and boxing. A lot of other niche sports would love to have as much mainstream acceptance as Nascar.

Nothing shameful about being a successful niche sport. Obviously Nascar is always trying to grow and get more mainstream fans. So is every other sport.

NHL launched the Winter Classic and all these outdoor games to attract new fans. Golf added a playoff system just like Nascar, the Fedex Cup. Fedex Cup has been mostly a failure as golf fans mainly just care about the majors.

In many ways, every league except the NFL is a niche sport in modern America. There are so many TV shows and movies and sports on TV. There is so much time spent on videogames and the internet. Audiences are fragmented. That seems unlikely to change in the future. Every sport and league is trying to hold on to their fans and attract new ones.
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I agree with most of what you wrote, although the peaks for Golf and Horse Racing aren't that far off from NASCAR's.

The thing is that it seems like the newer fan base NASCAR tried to build with the implementation of the Chase hasn't really seemed to materialize, and in doing so they also pissed off a lot of older fans. I have to wonder how many more things they can try. I think for the most part it's plateaued.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I agree with most of what you wrote, although the peaks for Golf and Horse Racing aren't that far off from NASCAR's.

The thing is that it seems like the newer fan base NASCAR tried to build with the implementation of the Chase hasn't really seemed to materialize, and in doing so they also pissed off a lot of older fans. I have to wonder how many more things they can try. I think for the most part it's plateaued.
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While I agree the newer fanbase isnt there the older ones still are. While many bitch and complain about the way the sport was in the "good ol days" and the radical changes in it today they all still watch. Unless people are not going to watch the race then the complaining needs to stop. It becomes hypocritical the minute they tune in. Its what slice has been saying all thread to the detractors. If you want to complain about it the option is simple. Dont watch it. Otherwise what the hell else are people going to do about it? The only way to truly have a profound affect on it is to not watch and not go to the races.

I have watched the sport my whole life and have seen different variations of it and at the end of the day I still watch it because I enjoy the sport at its most minute level, at the craft of it, the one thing that cant be taken away from the sport. I like racing. That is still there. It always has and it always will be. There will always be a new budding star and a new rivalry and the re-emergence of an old one. That stuff is the meat and potatoes of the sport and it will always be there.
 
Just last year the ratings were up for Nascar. That is the proof that the originals are still watching.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Just last year the ratings were up for Nascar. That is the proof that the originals are still watching.
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By very little...the general trend for several years was downward followed by a plateau over the last three to four years.

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FLRacingFan said:
Which is, in general, what has occurred.
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I would beg to differ regarding the true fans of the sport. What we are seeing is the continued drop off of the new fans the sport generated from the early 00's. Its hard to tell, but I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of lost fans are not the fans you were originally talking about.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Its hard to tell, but I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of lost fans are not the fans you were originally talking about.
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I agree, but some of them (including some on this forum who mainly post in other sections now) have indeed left over the last several years.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
....Unless people are not going to watch the race then the complaining needs to stop. It becomes hypocritical the minute they tune in.
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Actually, it doesn't "need" to stop.

I used to go to several races each year. There were a handful of tracks I'd hit every year.
All that stopped shortly after nascar created the first chase point system. Since then I haven't spent a dime on nascar.

It doesn't cost me any money to watch the race on TV, so how is it hypocritical of me to not like the direction nascar is going and say so, but to continue watching the races on TV?
 
FenderBumper said:
nascar sure has changed their tune from 'everything is OK with us. It's the economy' to actually making some changes.
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I have to admit some of what they've done recently has been really successful - the crowds for the Truck races at Bowmanville and Eldora were great, Eldora was the most-watched Truck race broadcast on SPEED/FS1 that wasn't at Daytona, the Mid-Ohio Nationwide race supposedly had almost 100,000 in attendance, Road America's Nationwide race has been so successful that the track has been upgrading barriers, fencing, and runoff areas in an attempt to get a Cup race - but the common denominator among those is that they were all about mixing up locations and track types. I wish they would head more in that direction.
 
gordonite said:
Actually, it doesn't "need" to stop.

I used to go to several races each year. There were a handful of tracks I'd hit every year.
All that stopped shortly after nascar created the first chase point system. Since then I haven't spent a dime on nascar.

It doesn't cost me any money to watch the race on TV, so how is it hypocritical of me to not like the direction nascar is going and say so, but to continue watching the races on TV?
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So Nascar has no benefit of you tuning in on Sunday? Are you off the grid? Are you somehow illeagally obtaining the race? Whether or not you spend money on Nascar is pointless. If you watch you are part of the ratings therefor Nascar benefits from you by using its ratings to land deals like the one with NBC.

Do you buy producta that are major sponsors of the sport? If so do you not think that by you contributing to that companies revenue that its what allows them to contribute to the Nascar brand like they do? Even though you may be a small spoke in the wheel its hard to avoid it.The only way would be to not go and not watch.

I could not go and not watch, but we still shop at Target so I would be contributing to a company that is a major sponsor in the sport. I know its a very minimal piece, but for gods sake just sit back and take the damn sport for what it is......entertainment

I see a lot of people saying that Nascar is more entertainment and not so much of a sport anymore. What the hell are sports to you people? Why do you watch them? Do you watch to not be entertained? Sports exist on the level they do today because they are entertaining.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I have to admit some of what they've done recently has been really successful - the crowds for the Truck races at Bowmanville and Eldora were great, Eldora was the most-watched Truck race broadcast on SPEED/FS1 that wasn't at Daytona, the Mid-Ohio Nationwide race supposedly had almost 100,000 in attendance, Road America's Nationwide race has been so successful that the track has been upgrading barriers, fencing, and runoff areas in an attempt to get a Cup race - but the common denominator among those is that they were all about mixing up locations and track types. I wish they would head more in that direction.
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Track structure is one of the root problems. ISC makes more money by having 2 races at 1 track than they would building a new track in a new market. So the France family version of expansion when popularity exploded was to turn everything into a 1.5 and add seats.

Now there is no way ISC gives up dates and acquires new tracks and takes the hit to their bottom line.
 
FLRacingFan said:
I have to admit some of what they've done recently has been really successful - the crowds for the Truck races at Bowmanville and Eldora were great, Eldora was the most-watched Truck race broadcast on SPEED/FS1 that wasn't at Daytona, the Mid-Ohio Nationwide race supposedly had almost 100,000 in attendance, Road America's Nationwide race has been so successful that the track has been upgrading barriers, fencing, and runoff areas in an attempt to get a Cup race - but the common denominator among those is that they were all about mixing up locations and track types. I wish they would head more in that direction.
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maybe cup race at road america is comin ? that an mid ohio would be nice !
 
FenderBumper said:
Track structure is one of the root problems. ISC makes more money by having 2 races at 1 track than they would building a new track in a new market. So the France family version of expansion when popularity exploded was to turn everything into a 1.5 and add seats.

Now there is no way ISC gives up dates and acquires new tracks and takes the hit to their bottom line.
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Nailed it.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
So Nascar has no benefit of you tuning in on Sunday? Are you off the grid? Are you somehow illeagally obtaining the race? Whether or not you spend money on Nascar is pointless. If you watch you are part of the ratings therefor Nascar benefits from you by using its ratings to land deals like the one with NBC.

Do you buy producta that are major sponsors of the sport? If so do you not think that by you contributing to that companies revenue that its what allows them to contribute to the Nascar brand like they do? Even though you may be a small spoke in the wheel its hard to avoid it.The only way would be to not go and not watch.

I could not go and not watch, but we still shop at Target so I would be contributing to a company that is a major sponsor in the sport. I know its a very minimal piece, but for gods sake just sit back and take the damn sport for what it is......entertainment

I see a lot of people saying that Nascar is more entertainment and not so much of a sport anymore. What the hell are sports to you people? Why do you watch them? Do you watch to not be entertained? Sports exist on the level they do today because they are entertaining.
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Wasn't getting fans at the track part of the reason for the new point system? Brian did say that, no? Are you saying it's only about ratings?

When I say I don't spend my money on nascar, I'm talking about race tickets and merchandise. I'm not going to be a zealot about it and boycott every product that has anything to do with nascar.

That makes me a hypocrite? lol If you say so.

Also, I haven't seen people saying nascar is more entertainment now than a real sport.

What I have said, and have seen other people say is nascar is more of a reality TV show now than a real sport.
 
FenderBumper said:
Track structure is one of the root problems. ISC makes more money by having 2 races at 1 track than they would building a new track in a new market. So the France family version of expansion when popularity exploded was to turn everything into a 1.5 and add seats.

Now there is no way ISC gives up dates and acquires new tracks and takes the hit to their bottom line.
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isc is takin out seats at all its tracks now. over 20% i think.? over 40k at daytona w/ renovation once finished.
ole supply / demand thing.
only 45-50k seats at homestead......... wonder when they go on sale ?
 
clarkfn2284 said:
I would beg to differ regarding the true fans of the sport. What we are seeing is the continued drop off of the new fans the sport generated from the early 00's. Its hard to tell, but I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of lost fans are not the fans you were originally talking about.
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Do you have evidence to support the statement that it's newer fans who quit watching? I'd say it's entirely possible that it's the tens of thousands of Jr fans who file out of the stands when he wrecked that aren't showing up and aren't watching anymore.

Brian France himself has made statements in the past about Jr not winning being the result of ratings declines. I'm sure he has the evidence to support his statements.
 
gordonite said:
Also, I haven't seen people saying nascar is more entertainment now than a real sport.

What I have said, and have seen other people say is nascar is more of a reality TV show now than a real sport.
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find an old humpy wheeler interview !
 
If you look at when the decline started, it could be the "Jimmie Johnson era". It could be The Chase. It could be because that's when Jr went from being a weekly contender to a mediocre, mid-pack driver in the course of one half-season. It could be the Car of Tomorrow. It could be the television deal that moved races from NBC to ABC and later ESPN.

I'm sure NASCAR has all the information they need to make informed decisions. They have access to all the demographics information, to the marketing data and so on.
 
track revenue vs. tv contract revenue. ??
where are tha young stat guys ?

divide by 36 .....is all i know !
 
hawg dawg said:
track revenue vs. tv contract revenue. ??
where are tha young stat guys ?

divide by 36 .....is all i know !
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The best solution for NASCAR would be to race at more short tracks but that will never happen because short tracks don't have the facilities to accommodate the fans, media, sponsors and etc. I wish all the tracks that were built in the 90s and 2000s weren't brobdingnagians but they were and we're stuck with them.
 
gordonite said:
Wasn't getting fans at the track part of the reason for the new point system? Brian did say that, no? Are you saying it's only about ratings?

When I say I don't spend my money on nascar, I'm talking about race tickets and merchandise. I'm not going to be a zealot about it and boycott every product that has anything to do with nascar.

That makes me a hypocrite? lol If you say so.

Also, I haven't seen people saying nascar is more entertainment now than a real sport.

What I have said, and have seen other people say is nascar is more of a reality TV show now than a real sport.
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Not attending races absolutely means something, but TV contracts are where the money is really at. It has b een that way in every sport. Look at the LA Dodgers. Their TV deal is outrageously lucrative. Same goes for the Yankees and Red Sox.

Its one thing to complain about the product, but at the end of the day if you are tuning in its pointless. Its the same as complaining about driving down a bumpy road and complaining about it every day yet every morning you continue to take the same road to work. If you have to complain about it and you can control it then stop it. If you get bent out of shape by the changes in the format then don't watch. That's how you can have it your way. If enough of that ilk stop watching changes will be made. The only problem is you will be watching every single time its on. So just embrace it and then at the end of the season come back and make an assessment then.

If you read back through the thread you will see it mentioned multiple times about how NASCARis more about entertainment as opposed to a sport. I don't have the energy to go find it all.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
The best solution for NASCAR would be to race at more short tracks but that will never happen because short tracks don't have the facilities to accommodate the fans, media, sponsors and etc. I wish all the tracks that were built in the 90s and 2000s weren't brobdingnagians but they were and we're stuck with them.
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wish i was 50 again ! fat chance a' that ! ha!
reality is tuff.
once nascar signed 820 mill /yr long term pact w/ fox/nbc....they became stakeholders.
nbc wanted nascar.....ta compete w/ nfl. ......not reverse....ta "lead into" sunday nite football.

here's funny twist...... new chase format comes out w/ tnt / espn in last yr.
if it flops....blame them....change it....when nbc comes on in '15.
if it's a success...nbc has a winnin deal.....goin into '15. ....an forward.

why else didn't nbc pick up tnt / espn '14 contracts ?
 
Also sports have be the closest thing to reality forever. Every single sport needs personalities to market, feuds to draw attention to the product and an element of someone doing something we all wish we could do at that level. It has always been reality tv. It has always been the exact same way it is today. Going back to the Romans.

Nothing has changed in the sport. That's what I don't get. You guys act like they took away racing side by side or something. The competition in and of itself is the same...if not better because of the added importance of getting a win. More guys will take chances to get that win. It adds a level of unpredictability to eavh weekend.
 
hawg dawg said:
wish i was 50 again ! fat chance a' that ! ha!
reality is tuff.
once nascar signed 820 mill /yr long term pact w/ fox/nbc....they became stakeholders.
nbc wanted nascar.....ta compete w/ nfl. ......not reverse....ta "lead into" sunday nite football.

here's funny twist...... new chase format comes out w/ tnt / espn in last yr.
if it flops....blame them....change it....when nbc comes on in '15.
if it's a success...nbc has a winnin deal.....goin into '15. ....an forward.

why else didn't nbc pick up tnt / espn '14 contracts ?
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I agree the NBC deal has a huge part in this. NBC saw an opportunity to stake a claim. This season could be viewed as a trial run for the new system and they could make some tweaks this offseason before NBC takes over
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Do you have evidence to support the statement that it's newer fans who quit watching? I'd say it's entirely possible that it's the tens of thousands of Jr fans who file out of the stands when he wrecked that aren't showing up and aren't watching anymore.

Brian France himself has made statements in the past about Jr not winning being the result of ratings declines. I'm sure he has the evidence to support his statements.
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No I don't have that evidence which is why I said that its hard to tell, but as it is in most sports the hardcore fanbase doesn't usually walk away from the sport. They hang in there no matter what changes take place. I don't doubt that some loss is from JR fans not tuning in, but would they be considered the hardcore fans?
 
clarkfn2284 said:
I agree the NBC deal has a huge part in this. NBC saw an opportunity to stake a claim. This season could be viewed as a trial run for the new system and they could make some tweaks this offseason before NBC takes over
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better expect rotten tomatoes tomorrow clark ! ha!
 
clarkfn2284 said:
No I don't have that evidence which is why I said that its hard to tell, but as it is in most sports the hardcore fanbase doesn't usually walk away from the sport. They hang in there no matter what changes take place. I don't doubt that some loss is from JR fans not tuning in, but would they be considered the hardcore fans?
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arm rate increases...refi rate increases....etc...all hit home....long before media notices did !
prolly biggest downturn......cut out pleasure spendin. !
 
hawg dawg said:
expect rotten tomatoes tomorrow clark ! ha!
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Hahaha yeah maybe so. This stuff makes my head explode. Maybe I should take my own advice and just stop getting involved in it. I can't change the outlook of people and that's fine. I just wish people would see the opportunity in the changes and embrace before they talk them down right out of the gate. For a fanbase that has grown bored with a pretty stale product they still srent happy when something is done to try and change it up. NASCAR will never win.
 
hawg dawg said:
arm rate increases...refi rate increases....etc...all hit home....long before media notices did !
prolly biggest downturn......cut out pleasure spendin. !
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For sure, but it doesn't stop peolle from watching on TV. Ratings are super important for advertising and sponsors. Peolle who are the real fans still watch
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Nothing has changed in the sport. The competition in and of itself is the same.
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Plenty has changed. 15 years ago a driver could win the first 35 races and be ahead by a bunch of points going into the finale. Now a driver could win the first 35 races and they'd still be at 0 going into the finale. Pretty much impossible, but there's no doubt the competition model has changed.
 
hawg dawg said:
isc is takin out seats at all its tracks now. over 20% i think.? over 40k at daytona w/ renovation once finished.
ole supply / demand thing.
only 45-50k seats at homestead......... wonder when they go on sale ?
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I think it's more like 65,000.
 
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