NASCAR considering radical changes to playoff system

gordonite said:
Wrong. nascar is trying to make it more exciting for the people that aren't fans.

If they did it for me they me they wasted their time.
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Well I like it so that cancels out your opinion of it.

Thats what I am saying. I would bet that its a split of fans either liking it, not liking it or not really caring.

The thing is that while you dont like it, you still watch it. No risk to Nascar because while you hate it and still watch they may pull in new fans with the added drama of the races. They cant lose unless those that dislike it revolt against the sport and we all know most of you wont do that.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Is it arrogant of Nascar to think they can make changes without recourse or regard for their current fans? Sure, but at the end of the day most of us tune in so why should they care?
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Does any one know what the end goal of nascar is? I know they want to make as much money as they can, just how many people do they think are nascar fans?
 
SlicedBread22 said:
So you're only giving room to wreck in the 500?

I thought we were past "no chase" discussion? LOL.... Regardless.... name a driver that was 10th-12th in points and blew up with 10 races to go and won the championship. :p
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It's cumulative. You can wreck and finish 43rd at Sonoma, and you still have 35 other races that factor equally into the championship.

Alan Kulwicki was down by 278 points with six races left in 1992 - won the title.
Richard Petty was down by 229 points with eleven races left in 1979 - won the title.

There are more. They weren't necessarily 10-12th in points but the gap was pretty sizeable.
 
I disagree... fan votes for like everything.. $400 million renovations at Daytona.... NASCAR is the most accessible sport there is for fans when it comes to what they can do and where they can go around the track... They change all of these rules and everything because fans are complaining about aero push races and not enough beatin and banging, they took away the tandem racing because the fans didn't like it... they talk about the fans favorite drivers dale Earnhardt jr and Danica 90% of the time even though they don't do much worth covering... I could probably go on but I already know there's a day's worth of arguments from you guys just based on what I've already said. Believe it or not NASCAR seems to do a lot more for the fans than most sports do. Maybe the problem is they need to stop listening to the fans lol.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Well I like it so that cancels out your opinion of it.

Thats what I am saying. I would bet that its a split of fans either liking it, not liking it or not really caring.

The thing is that while you dont like it, you still watch it. No risk to Nascar because while you hate it and still watch they may pull in new fans with the added drama of the races. They cant lose unless those that dislike it revolt against the sport.
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I agree there is definitely a split on how the fans feel about the new point system. A day or so after it was announced I saw a poll of nascar fans and it was 75% to 25% against it.

That's a split, no? lol


I get the logic behind the rest of your post. Are we done here? :)
 
I
FLRacingFan said:
Alan Kulwicki was down by 278 points with six races left in 1992 - won the title.
Richard Petty was down by 229 points with eleven races left in 1979 - won the title.

There are more. They weren't necessarily 10-12th in points but the gap was pretty sizeable.
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was actually wondering about that... I was curious to know if there was any... how much does that equal out to with the 43-1 system?
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I disagree... fan votes for like everything.. $400 million renovations at Daytona.... NASCAR is the most accessible sport there is for fans when it comes to what they can do and where they can go around the track... They change all of these rules and everything because fans are complaining about aero push races and not enough beatin and banging, they took away the tandem racing because the fans didn't like it... they talk about the fans favorite drivers dale Earnhardt jr and Danica 90% of the time even though they don't do much worth covering... I could probably go on but I already know there's a day's worth of arguments from you guys just based on what I've already said. Believe it or not NASCAR seems to do a lot more for the fans than most sports do. Maybe the problem is they need to stop listening to the fans lol.
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^^^^^^^ this

:cheers::booya:
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I

was actually wondering about that... I was curious to know if there was any... how much does that equal out to with the 43-1 system?
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In general, dividing by 4 is a good guideline, although it's not perfect - especially once you get down the running order. For instance, 43rd now gets only 2.1% of what the race winner earns while it used to be 17.9% (34 points out of 190). So I guess you could say about 60 in Petty's case and 70 in Alan's.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Not yet.. It will be interesting to follow that though. We can ask the new guys that come next off season whether they're here because of the exciting points battle :D
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If there were any new ones you didnt give them time to reply. There should be a huge influx of new posters any minute now to replace all the pissed off old ones
 
Kyle18fan said:
Does this forum have any new members that were lured to Nascar by the new chase rules ???
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I was a fan before the new changes, but I didnt care for the old chase. It didnt provide any excitement for me. That could be because I didnt have a driver in it too, but I stioll watched it. What it has done for me is made more of a fan and more excited to watch the races this season and more prone to not forget to DVR a race and watch because of the fact that each race no matter hoe boring will mean something. I will watch more intently for the chance that my guy gets a win in his rookie season and gets in the chase or for the possibility to see a lower teir guy sneak in by way of a win. So in a sense it has worked with me.

I never really worry about DVRing Fontana because the race almost always sucks out loud, but I will this year because no matter how boring the race is it will mean something at the end and it not just 1 of 26. I think it will trranslate in the way the teams and drivers handle the racing too.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
I was a fan before the new changes, but I didnt care for the old chase. It didnt provide any excitement for me. That could be because I didnt have a driver in it too, but I stioll watched it. What it has done for me is made more of a fan and more excited to watch the races this season and more prone to not forget to DVR a race and watch because of the fact that each race no matter hoe boring will mean something. I will watch more intently for the chance that my guy gets a win in his rookie season and gets in the chase or for the possibility to see a lower teir guy sneak in by way of a win. So in a sense it has worked with me.

I never really worry about DVRing Fontana because the race almost always sucks out loud, but I will this year because no matter how boring the race is it will mean something at the end and it not just 1 of 26. I think it will trranslate in the way the teams and drivers handle the racing too.
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The changes wont affect my viewing at all, I will be glad if all the new stuff attracts new people or increases the interest of casual fans
 
Kyle18fan said:
The changes wont affect my viewing at all, I will be glad if all the new stuff attracts new people or increases the interest of casual fans
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It wont for me for the most part. I may be more attentive to it as opposed to it being background noise while lounging on a Sunday with the family. I typically catch all the races with the exception of a few here or there because it slips my mind. I think it will at the very least generate intrigue which is a good thing.
 
gordonite said:
I agree there is definitely a split on how the fans feel about the new point system. A day or so after it was announced I saw a poll of nascar fans and it was 75% to 25% against it.

That's a split, no? lol


I get the logic behind the rest of your post. Are we done here? :)
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Yeah we are done. Nice refernece to a poll that includes how many fans? Probably not the best piece of evidence out there. This isnt Family Feud where we polled 100 people. Its going to be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end.
 
BOWTIE GUY said:
Does any one know what the end goal of nascar is? I know they want to make as much money as they can, just how many people do they think are nascar fans?
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I have no real way of knowing this for sure, but I would bet that the end goal would be to place a major emphasis on winning and to create as much drama and excitement to every race as possible while hopefully attracting a new base of fans who like the intensity and drama that comes with a win or go home mentality at Homestead.

The more eyes brought to the Championship race the better shot of making those eyes fans of the sport.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Where am I telling people to shut up? What I am simply stating is what slice was saying earlier. Try embracing the change because at the end of the day it is happening and you will be watching the product anyways. Unless people just like to be miserable, which if that is the case I cant understand.
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No, you didn't. My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Since you responded, I went back and read your comments, and you do go out of your way to illustrate how foolish you feel it is to post comments / complaints about the changes. I'm curious why?
 
FenderBumper said:
No, you didn't. My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Since you responded, I went back and read your comments, and you do go out of your way to illustrate how foolish you feel it is to post comments / complaints about the changes. I'm curious why?
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I feel its foolish because at the end of the day the vast majority that sit back and complain will still watch it. The ones that complain are the ones that are the most dedicated, but are also the ones that are never happy with the product. It just seems like a very odd way to exist and its a bit hypocritical. I compared it earlier to hating the Real Housewives show my wife watches. I hate the show, so I dont watch it. Its one thing to say you dont like the changes, but to make drastic comments like NASCAR doesnt care about the fans or its a hollow championship just seems a little too bothered by something to still be so invested in it that you (not you in particular) still watch it every weekend.

There has to be a reason why these people still tune in and watch it. So why not just enjoy it for those reasons as opposed to striking the idea down in its infancy before it has even had a chance to materialize on the racetrack.

It just seems so stuck in the past to me. The product was stale...in my opinion.....maybe this will help....maybe not, but at least they are trying.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
I feel its foolish because at the end of the day the vast majority that sit back and complain will still watch it. The ones that complain are the ones that are the most dedicated, but are also the ones that are never happy with the product. It just seems like a very odd way to exist and its a bit hypocritical. I compared it earlier to hating the Real Housewives show my wife watches. I hate the show, so I dont watch it. Its one thing to say you dont like the changes, but to make drastic comments like NASCAR doesnt care about the fans or its a hollow championship just seems a little too bothered by something to still be so invested in it that you (not you in particular) still watch it every weekend.

There has to be a reason why these people still tune in and watch it. So why not just enjoy it for those reasons as opposed to striking the idea down in its infancy before it has even had a chance to materialize on the racetrack.

It just seems so stuck in the past to me. The product was stale...in my opinion.....maybe this will help....maybe not, but at least they are trying.
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You like the changes. Fine. You don't see anyone here telling you how silly it is to keep posting about it, rather than just watch the races.

See the point now?
 
No my issue isnt that people dont like the changes. Its the logic or lack there of being used to generate that opinion. What I have read from people is that the new changes are bad because:

1. It creates a hollow Championship
2. The first 26 races dont matter
3. Why not just have 1 race at Homestead and thats it
4. The points get wiped away after each round

etc...

I ask:

1. How is the Championship hollow?
2. How do the first 26 races not matter?
3. See question 2
4. What is so wrong with starting new rounds with a clean slate?

All of the arguements are based on the pretense that the person who wins the Championship will not have earned it. Somebody please explain to me how that would be the case? The driver under the new rules will have had to either win a race in the first 26 and be top 30 in points or be a top points earner after race winners and the points leader qualify. Now there is a scenario where the second place points driver has zero wins and there are 15 different race winners and the points leader is the 16th qualifier thus the 2nd place points driver not getting in, but what are the chances of that? Then those qualifiers either have to win 1 of 3 races to advance or be in the top 12, 8, or 4 in points to advance to the next round. Then after all of that that person would still have to outperform 3 other drivers in a single race format.

So where do they not earn it?

Is there any other reasons why people do not like the changes? Im am genuinely curious about this. I dont recall seeing other reasons. Generally every reason is related to the logic that it isnt earned.

Where is there a scenario where it isnt?

Im ok with people not liking the changes, but doesnt the reasoning have to make sense? There are parts I dont like about it, but my reasons make sense.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Yeah we are done. Nice refernece to a poll that includes how many fans? Probably not the best piece of evidence out there. This isnt Family Feud where we polled 100 people. Its going to be interesting to see how it all plays out in the end.
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I think at the time it was around 1,500. Did you want me to find a poll that included every nascar fan? lol
I'm not saying some fans won't like it. Wouldn't surprise me if it came to a 50/50 split. I'm fine with that. I'm not going to "get all worked up over it".
 
NASCAR Winston Cup - 1994:
Drivers collect points based on finishing position, the driver that has the most points at the end of the season wins the championship.

NASCAR Nextel Cup - 2004:
Drivers collect points over the first 26 races of the season. The top 10 drivers in points after the first 26 races qualify for a 10 race "Chase" in which points are bumped up to 5,000 plus 5 points for every position above 11th that the driver finished after the first 26 races. The Chase driver that has the most points at the end of the season wins the championship.

NASCAR Sprint Cup - 2014:
Drivers collect points based on finishing position, but must win a race to qualify for the Chase. But they have to attempt to qualify for every race and be at least 30th in points to qualify for the Chase. However, a driver can still qualify for the Chase if less than 16 drivers win in the first 26 races based on their points position. Conversely, if more than 16 drivers win in the first 26 races, the lowest winner in points is out. The 16 drivers in the Chase then have their points reset and compete in four elimination rounds. After the first three races of the Chase, four drivers are eliminated and the points are reset again. Also, any driver that wins one of the three races in the elimination round automatically move on to the next round. The drivers who have been eliminated can still advance their points position, as their points will go back to 2,000 plus points attained during the Chase. After the three elimination rounds, the four remaining drivers compete for the Championship at Homestead, with the highest finishing of the four drivers winning the championship.

I may have to attend a two-week seminar to learn the 2024 rules.
 
gordonite said:
I think at the time it was around 1,500. Did you want me to find a poll that included every nascar fan? lol
I'm not saying some fans won't like it. Wouldn't surprise me if it came to a 50/50 split. I'm fine with that. I'm not going to "get all worked up over it".
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No theres no need for that, i was just curious about the sample size :micro:
 
clarkfn2284 said:
I feel its foolish because at the end of the day the vast majority that sit back and complain will still watch it. The ones that complain are the ones that are the most dedicated, but are also the ones that are never happy with the product. It just seems like a very odd way to exist and its a bit hypocritical. I compared it earlier to hating the Real Housewives show my wife watches. I hate the show, so I dont watch it. Its one thing to say you dont like the changes, but to make drastic comments like NASCAR doesnt care about the fans or its a hollow championship just seems a little too bothered by something to still be so invested in it that you (not you in particular) still watch it every weekend.

There has to be a reason why these people still tune in and watch it. So why not just enjoy it for those reasons as opposed to striking the idea down in its infancy before it has even had a chance to materialize on the racetrack.

It just seems so stuck in the past to me. The product was stale...in my opinion.....maybe this will help....maybe not, but at least they are trying.
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I like the racing. Just don't like the way the champion is now determined. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
 
ToyYoda said:
NASCAR Winston Cup - 1994:
Drivers collect points based on finishing position, the driver that has the most points at the end of the season wins the championship.

NASCAR Nextel Cup - 2004:
Drivers collect points over the first 26 races of the season. The top 10 drivers in points after the first 26 races qualify for a 10 race "Chase" in which points are bumped up to 5,000 plus 5 points for every position above 11th that the driver finished after the first 26 races. The Chase driver that has the most points at the end of the season wins the championship.

NASCAR Sprint Cup - 2014:
Drivers collect points based on finishing position, but must win a race to qualify for the Chase. But they have to attempt to qualify for every race and be at least 30th in points to qualify for the Chase. However, a driver can still qualify for the Chase if less than 16 drivers win in the first 26 races based on their points position. Conversely, if more than 16 drivers win in the first 26 races, the lowest winner in points is out. The 16 drivers in the Chase then have their points reset and compete in four elimination rounds. After the first three races of the Chase, four drivers are eliminated and the points are reset again. Also, any driver that wins one of the three races in the elimination round automatically move on to the next round. The drivers who have been eliminated can still advance their points position, as their points will go back to 2,000 plus points attained during the Chase. After the three elimination rounds, the four remaining drivers compete for the Championship at Homestead, with the highest finishing of the four drivers winning the championship.

I may have to attend a two-week seminar to learn the 2024 rules.
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Thats about right except for the bolded......they dont actually have to win;)
 
gordonite said:
Actually you didn't like the results so you tried to discredit it by comparing it to the Family Feud game show.
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No has nothing to do with results, just the simple fact that its hard to gauge how people like it based on such a small sample size...again with logic, i know
 
clarkfn2284 said:
1. How is the Championship hollow?
2. How do the first 26 races not matter?
3. See question 2
4. What is so wrong with starting new rounds with a clean slate?
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1. It creates the potential for the actual best team to lose the championship because of nascar repeated resetting the points for dramatic affect.

2. see answer 1

3. see answer 1.


Not trying to be a smart ass, but that's what it comes down to for me.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
No has nothing to do with results, just the simple fact that its hard to gauge how people like it based on such a small sample size...again with logic, i know
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nascar is prolly only folks w/ stat valid poll.
all others...anecdotal....from most vocal web fans.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
All of the arguements are based on the pretense that the person who wins the Championship will not have earned it. Somebody please explain to me how that would be the case?
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Driver X has 1 win, 8 dnf's and finishes 30th in points, 475 points behind 10th. he makes the playoffs and has an average finish of 14th in the first 3 rounds but still makes it into the Homestead championship race because others had flats and wrecks. Meanwhile, the other 3 drivers have combined for 16 wins. Driver X wins the championship because any damn thing can happen in a single race.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Because obviously it doesnt bother you enough to stop watching. So instead you just sit and bitch about it.
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I've explained why I will continue watching the races. It's the way the chamionship is determined that I don't like. As a fan I believe I have the right to feel that way, even if you don't agree with it, yes or no?
 
clarkfn2284 said:
No has nothing to do with results, just the simple fact that its hard to gauge how people like it based on such a small sample size...again with logic, i know
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The people that frequent this site are a nice cross section of nascar fans. Most here don't like it either, and you seem to have a problem with that too. lol

...just sayin' :)
 
gordonite said:
1. It creates the potential for the actual best team to lose the championship because of nascar repeated resetting the points for dramatic affect.

2. see answer 1

3. see answer 1.


Not trying to be a smart ass, but that's what it comes down to for me.
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1. The best team could still have had the same thing happen to them with the old system. Look at the effect the Bowyer incident had last season. Despite the points being reset the final four had to earn that spot am I right? In turn the Champion would have to earn the best spot of the final four at homestead right? It is earned no matter what. Maybe not in a fashion you would prefer, but there is no argument against that fact.

2. All races will matter as wins mean more now
 
clarkfn2284 said:
1. The best team could still have had the same thing happen to them with the old system. Look at the effect the Bowyer incident had last season. Despite the points being reset the final four had to earn that spot am I right? In turn the Champion would have to earn the best spot of the final four at homestead right? It is earned no matter what. Maybe not in a fashion you would prefer, but there is no argument against that fact.

2. All races will matter as wins mean more now
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I don't like resetting the points. Period.

...next.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Yeah its crazy convoluted.......should be interesting to see how they tweak it next season
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They may not tweak it at all if it produces the desired result. But, given that none of the Chase formats have lasted longer than four years, I'd say this one probably has a short shelf life as well.
 
FenderBumper said:
Driver X has 1 win, 8 dnf's and finishes 30th in points, 475 points behind 10th. he makes the playoffs and has an average finish of 14th in the first 3 rounds but still makes it into the Homestead championship race because others had flats and wrecks. Meanwhile, the other 3 drivers have combined for 16 wins. Driver X wins the championship because any damn thing can happen in a single race.
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fb....do you not think that nascar ran algorithms on every possible scenario ......w/ correspondin odds on each....prior ta arrivin at final chase format ?
 
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