NASCAR considering radical changes to playoff system

Smoke14 said:
Let me start by saying I am a diehard race fan.

From what I see posted here and read elsewhere, NASCAR attendance and TV viewing has dropped quite a bit over the last ten years. In my opinion, if NASCAR doesn't do something, this trend will continue.
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The explosion of popularity from the early-to-mid 2000s could only be sustained for so long. It happens to every sport - MLB has fallen a great deal in popularity since the mid-1980s, the NBA has experienced a significant drop-off since the 1990s, etc. Eventually it will happen to the NFL as well. You can only slow the rate of decline, and really, 2013 TV ratings were better than 2012's and about on par with 2010's. NASCAR management is delusional enough to believe they can make the sport as popular as it was in 2005 with all of this Mickey Mouse crap.
 
Smoke14 said:
Let me start by saying I am a diehard race fan.

From what I see posted here and read elsewhere, NASCAR attendance and TV viewing has dropped quite a bit over the last ten years. In my opinion, if NASCAR doesn't do something, this trend will continue.
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NASCAR's got to get young viewers to tune in and based on what I've seen on Facebook and Twitter, this will accomplish that. It's younger fans who like this system. As I've said in the past, everything NASCAR does at this point is going to piss off either younger fans or older fans. Who's going to be paying the bills 20-30 years from now?

Biggest problem NASCAR has is that they're racing at a ton of tracks that were built for open wheel IndyCar racing. But real racetracks don't have the facilities to accommodate big time auto racing.
 
FLRacingFan said:
The explosion of popularity from the early-to-mid 2000s could only be sustained for so long. It happens to every sport - MLB has fallen a great deal in popularity since the mid-1980s, the NBA has experienced a significant drop-off since the 1990s, etc. Eventually it will happen to the NFL as well. You can only slow the rate of decline, and really, 2013 TV ratings were better than 2012's and about on par with 2010's. NASCAR management is delusional enough to believe they can make the sport as popular as it was in 2005 with all of this Mickey Mouse crap.
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yeah, it is commonly called "plateauing". There is growth in a product until the market is saturated. It peaks out and then falls back to a pretty steady level. Nascar is doing what other businesses in that situation does, how many ads for old products do you hear "new and improved", same thing here, tweaking around and trying to stir up interest.
 
StandOnIt said:
yeah, it is commonly called "plateauing". There is growth in a product until the market is saturated. It peaks out and then falls back to a pretty steady level. Nascar is doing what other businesses in that situation does, how many ads for old products do you hear "new and improved", same thing here, tweaking around and trying to stir up interest.
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The problem is that every new tweaking of the product is actually making the product worse. If they really wanted to improve the product, they'd look at the cars and tracks before messing with The Chase format.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
NASCAR's got to get young viewers to tune in and based on what I've seen on Facebook and Twitter, this will accomplish that. It's younger fans who like this system. As I've said in the past, everything NASCAR does at this point is going to piss off either younger fans or older fans. Who's going to be paying the bills 20-30 years from now?

Biggest problem NASCAR has is that they're racing at a ton of tracks that were built for open wheel IndyCar racing. But real racetracks don't have the facilities to accommodate big time auto racing.
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Not buying for a minute that this lame system will draw in younger fans, have you heard any young folks saying "hey Nascar has a lame new chase now !!!!! everyone throw your cellphones away and watch Nascar"

Most young folks dont give a crap about Nascar IMO
 
Kyle18fan said:
Not buying for a minute that this lame system will draw in younger fans, have you heard any young folks saying "hey Nascar has a lame new chase now !!!!! everyone throw your cellphones away and watch Nascar"

Most young folks dont give a crap about Nascar IMO
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Sweeping generalizations aside, NASCAR's been able to attract younger viewers in the past. And other sports have no problem attracting younger viewers.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Sweeping generalizations aside, NASCAR's been able to attract younger viewers in the past. And other sports have no problem attracting younger viewers.
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Pastrana brought a few but he sucked and now he is gone.
Danica brought a few but she sucks and the new has worn off.
I dont know how to fix it but this playoff crap isnt going to do it IMO
 
Kyle18fan said:
Pastrana brought a few but he sucked and now he is gone.
Danica brought a few but she sucks and the new has worn off.
I dont know how to fix it but this playoff crap isnt going to do it IMO
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Let's just keep doing it your way. And in 10 years, NASCAR will be off the map entirely.

NASCAR has to do something.
 
Who knows if it will be worse, Nascar hasn't announced what, if any changes there will be next year, so until they do, I can't see getting too excited about something that hasn't happened, but when there isn't any racing, anything to get publicity. Funny how most around here can't stand the chase and think it needs to go, or be improved. Guess not.
http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/10312699/nascar-planning-major-changes-points-system
"So a shake up to the system wouldn't be unexpected. But it may not necessarily look like what The Observer reported -- the newspaper was clear the format is only being considered -- because it's not unlike NASCAR to float ideas to gauge reaction."
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
Let's just keep doing it your way. And in 10 years, NASCAR will be off the map entirely.

NASCAR has to do something.
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Well Andy, you might be right and this will be the savior. Personally I cant see this doing anything but pissing off fans, the ratings for Homestead may go up a bit though. Time will tell I guess
 
StandOnIt said:
Who knows if it will be worse, Nascar hasn't announced what, if any changes there will be next year, so until they do, I can't see getting too excited about something that hasn't happened, but when there isn't any racing, anything to get publicity. Funny how most around here can't stand the chase and think it needs to go, or be improved. Guess not.
http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/cup/story/_/id/10312699/nascar-planning-major-changes-points-system
"So a shake up to the system wouldn't be unexpected. But it may not necessarily look like what The Observer reported -- the newspaper was clear the format is only being considered -- because it's not unlike NASCAR to float ideas to gauge reaction."
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Pretty sure they will see that this idea dont float :)
 
The boom in TV ratings in the 2000s was due to one thing -- Earnhardt's death. That emotionally bonded millions of casual viewers who normally just tuned into Daytona every year. That bond, like all emotional bonds, faded over time. And the next generation coming in didn't have that intense emotional experience that tied them to the sport.

Here's a chart that explains it all.
historical_lameduck.png
 
StoneTown said:
The boom in TV ratings in the 2000s was due to one thing -- Earnhardt's death. That emotionally bonded millions of casual viewers who normally just tuned into Daytona every year. That bond, like all emotional bonds, faded over time. And the next generation coming in didn't have that intense emotional experience that tied them to the sport.

Here's a chart that explains it all.
historical_lameduck.png
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It's hard to say it was just the death of Dale Earnhardt that caused that spike. 2001 was also the year NASCAR's television deal took effect which moved their races from ESPN and TNN to FOX and NBC.
 
Another interpretation of that chart is that the introduction of the Chase and tweaking of the rules didn't hurt the ratings much, but the introduction of the Car of Tomorrow was the single worst thing Nascar has every done. TV ratings plummeted immediately when the COT was introduced and have never recovered.

TV ratings are basically back to where they were in the 90s.
 
Fair point. It's a really good chart, if nothing else. Nascarnomics is an excellent site. Guy who runs does a great job of analyzing the business of Nascar using objective stats.
 
StoneTown said:
but the introduction of the Car of Tomorrow was the single worst thing Nascar has every done. TV ratings plummeted immediately when the COT was introduced and have never recovered.
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Good intentions, but terrible execution. The winner of the first race in those saying he hates them and that they suck didn't help.
 
StoneTown said:
Another interpretation of that chart is that the introduction of the Chase and tweaking of the rules didn't hurt the ratings much, but the introduction of the Car of Tomorrow was the single worst thing Nascar has every done. TV ratings plummeted immediately when the COT was introduced and have never recovered.

TV ratings are basically back to where they were in the 90s.
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TV ratings were on the decline before the Car of Tomorrow.
 
AndyMarquisLive said:
It's hard to say it was just the death of Dale Earnhardt that caused that spike. 2001 was also the year NASCAR's television deal took effect which moved their races from ESPN and TNN to FOX and NBC.
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I think the network thing was a big part of the TV ratings boom of 2001-2006. During these years, the majority of the races were on network television. In the years before and since, the majority were on cable. Therefore, more homes had access to the races in the early and mid-'00s.
 
ToyYoda said:
I think the network thing was a big part of the TV ratings boom of 2001-2006. During these years, the majority of the races were on network television. In the years before and since, the majority were on cable. Therefore, more homes had access to the races in the early and mid-'00s.
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And people who had never really experienced NASCAR watched for the first time. And the racing from 2001-2005 was damn good racing. A GOOD race in 2013 would've been an average race in 2001.
 
ToyYoda said:
I think the network thing was a big part of the TV ratings boom of 2001-2006. During these years, the majority of the races were on network television. In the years before and since, the majority were on cable. Therefore, more homes had access to the races in the early and mid-'00s.
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True, but you can also see a precipitous decline in Daytona 500 ratings as well, so there's something else going on too.
 
Also, looking at the chart, it looks like recent years have a steady decline in ratings as the season goes on. Prior to the 2001 bump, that decline had several spikes throughout the season indicating that there was more interest as the season progressed vs. today.
 
I started following Nascar hardcore in 1994. I was eight years old. Earnhardt won the title by 400+ points. Did I care? No. I didn't need some gimmicky "playoff" system to follow it. I became very interested in the sport and watched every single race until some point in the early/mid 2000s when I became too busy with college and jobs and women and parties and all that other stuff. I still followed the sport and watched some of the races when I could, but it wasn't until a few years ago that I got back into it hardcore. I'll tell you right now, the horrible looking COT and the subpar quality of racing sure didn't help bring me back.

As long as the sport is making money, who cares how popular it's perceived? I think Brian France is doing more to ruin the sport than anything. All these gimmicky changes aren't going to attract new young hardcore fans. Instead of wasting time with that BS, fix the real problems with the sport and be thankful for the fans that you got. Everything else...the money, TV deals, fans, sponsors, etc. will fall into place.
 
THIS is what stock cars should look like...

7and3.jpg


NOT this...

large_2008%20Chicago%20NSCS%20Kyle%20Busch%20passes%20Jimmie%20Johnson%20for%20win.jpg


Now that they finally fixed the look of the cars this past season, they need to work more on how they RACE. Make aero less of a factor and tires more so. Put the cars back in the hands of the driver. Do something, ANYTHING about the quality of racing at the 1.5 mile tracks. Make plate racing how it was 20 years ago instead of screwing with the cooling systems so they can't tandem. Add more short tracks. Try and do any of this and suddenly Nascar isn't looking too bad. But for the love of everything holy, STOP MESSING WITH THE POINTS SYSTEM.
 
Another thing that happened right around the time the ratings started dropping so fast, and this is probably minor but pop culture can be a cruel mistress --- Talladega Nights came out and was a hit movie and, for mass pop culture, Ricky Bobby became the face of Nascar.

And, sure, it was laughing with Nascar and Nascar fans and drivers ... but it was mostly laughing at them. And most of the jokes were about how backwards, poor, stupid, and low class Nascar and Nascar fans were. Nascar was the butt of most of the jokes, not just the setting for them.

I thought it was a funny movie. But I could see how it could cause some casual fans to not want to be associated with something that everybody was laughing at as a stupid thing for stupid people. This is probably a bigger factor for young fans just being exposed to the sport and more swayed by pop culture.

It's impressive how Talladega Nights managed to come out right around the peak of Nascar's popularity.
 
StoneTown said:
Another thing that happened right around the time the ratings started dropping so fast, and this is probably minor but pop culture can be a cruel mistress --- Talladega Nights came out and was a hit movie and, for mass pop culture, Ricky Bobby became the face of Nascar.

And, sure, it was laughing with Nascar and Nascar fans and drivers ... but it was mostly laughing at them. And most of the jokes were about how backwards, poor, stupid, and low class Nascar and Nascar fans were. Nascar was the butt of most of the jokes, not just the setting for them.

I thought it was a funny movie. But I could see how it could cause some casual fans to not want to be associated with something that everybody was laughing at as a stupid thing for stupid people. This is probably a bigger factor for young fans just being exposed to the sport and more swayed by pop culture.

It's impressive how Talladega Nights managed to come out right around the peak of Nascar's popularity.
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I don't think Nights had any bearing on fans not wanting to be associated with Nascar, Nights capitalized on Nascar during its height. The main reason, as many have said before, is the quality of racing and the ability to associate the car you see on the track and the car in the show room. I've said this before....manufacturers copy each other, copy a look, a grill pattern, a fender flair. Today it is very hard to distinguish cars from each other, where as in the 90s and earlier you could tell a T-Bird from a Monte Carlo and a Grand Prix form a Cutlas. Line up a Camry, a Chevy whatever it is, and a Fusion next to each other and they are very similar. There's no real oustanding feature that stands out amongest the 3, try to do that on the track, it is nearly impossible. Americans have lost their love affair with the car for the most part, it isn't like it was 20 years ago. Sure there are cool cars out there, but kids these days don't want a Fusion or a SS, they want to tinker and tune a Honda , Mazda or a Suby. It was cool to go to a big race back in the early 2000s, everyone was doing it. Nascar even made it appealing for women and we saw a lot more women get involved as fans and competitors. Messing with the points system is the wrong approach, it is artificial, it's like all the band aids Nascar keeps puting on the RP situation. After awhile it becomes silly, and the credibility factor goes down the toilet. The cars are better looking, race a little better, but there still needs to be a lot of improvement so the fans can readily identify with the product on the track .As in any business once you make oodles of money you want to continue to make it, Nascar needs to take the right approach instead of being greedy, but this won't happen until there is some one else running the show.
 
I can tell you now this is exactly what is happening.

A non-nascar fan flips through the sports channels during his football commercials. He sees nascar and watches it for 15 seconds - 75% of the time it will be under green at an aero-push track with cars too spread out & nothing entertaining to watch. He does this 3 or 4 more times during football commercials and he sees the same racing "action". That's boring as hell. We don't need better looking cars or playoffs or blah blah. We need tighter racing, more exciting commentators, and maybe some crowd noise if possible. That is what draws the casual fewer in. I have college buddies who love football but can't even tell me how our current chase system works. They don't give a **** about the playoff system - they just wanna watch white knuckle racing and not this boring every car is 4 car-lengths apart crap.
 
StoneTown said:
The boom in TV ratings in the 2000s was due to one thing -- Earnhardt's death. That emotionally bonded millions of casual viewers who normally just tuned into Daytona every year. That bond, like all emotional bonds, faded over time. And the next generation coming in didn't have that intense emotional experience that tied them to the sport.

Here's a chart that explains it all.
historical_lameduck.png
Click to expand...
Looks to me like its still doing better than it was before the 2000's
 
ChexOrWrex said:
I can tell you now this is exactly what is happening.

A non-nascar fan flips through the sports channels during his football commercials. He sees nascar and watches it for 15 seconds - 75% of the time it will be under green at an aero-push track with cars too spread out & nothing entertaining to watch. He does this 3 or 4 more times during football commercials and he sees the same racing "action". That's boring as hell. We don't need better looking cars or playoffs or blah blah. We need tighter racing, more exciting commentators, and maybe some crowd noise if possible. That is what draws the casual fewer in. I have college buddies who love football but can't even tell me how our current chase system works. They don't give a **** about the playoff system - they just wanna watch white knuckle racing and not this boring every car is 4 car-lengths apart crap.
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Yeah, I think the cookie cutter tracks are definitely a big part of the problem. These tracks traditionally have the worst racing, and they make up a huge chunk of the schedule. Unfortunately Bruton Smith thinks every track should be just like Charlotte, a track I've always thought to be overrated to begin with.

As far as the points system, the fact that it is changing so much is starting to make the sport look silly. Prior to the Brian France era we had the same points system for 29 years, but if this proposed system ends up happening, it will be the 4th one in 11 seasons. And the proposed format itself is just awful. It's like a cheesy All-Star race gimmick that's being extrapolated over an entire season.
 
Ive been wondering.. I forget... when they went to the current 43-1 point system.. did they announce it a season before they did it? Or even better... when they went to the chase?

In other words.. what are the chances of them changing to the new system for 2014? Based on what they did when they changed the points system before.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Ive been wondering.. I forget... when they went to the current 43-1 point system.. did they announce it a season before they did it? Or even better... when they went to the chase?

In other words.. what are the chances of them changing to the new system for 2014? Based on what they did when they changed the points system before.
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I believe it was announced that off season, as was the Chase between 2003 and 2004. If this system is a go, it'll more than likely take effect this year.
 
ToyYoda said:
Yes they were, myself included :) The Chase did grow on me over the years though, maybe this will too.
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It's already grown on me over the past week lol.. I know there's a lot of holes but then again nothing has been announced. I'll be watching either way, and whether the excitement is engineered or not it's still excitement lol my adrenaline doesn't know the difference.
 
StoneTown said:
Another interpretation of that chart is that the introduction of the Chase and tweaking of the rules didn't hurt the ratings much, but the introduction of the Car of Tomorrow was the single worst thing Nascar has every done. TV ratings plummeted immediately when the COT was introduced and have never recovered.

TV ratings are basically back to where they were in the 90s.
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....and this makes me wonder why NASCAR continues to push the driver fandom instead of pushing the manufacturer passion identity. Gen 6 was supposed to take us back to that. NASCAR started a media push for the car, and then it faded. If we view this with a stick and ball lens, we are asking new fans to pick a driver as they might a team, and follow that driver to the end as they might a team. However, a team has a 50/50 chance on any given event date. A driver has a 1/43 chance. Destined for disappointment. Obviously, if we can get new fans to buy into a manufacturer and/or a race team, those chances improve and the perspective on the season changes. Honestly, we don't need to change the sport. We need to change the way people watch it.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/proposed-changes-nascar-39-chase-aren-39-t-163700809--nascar.html
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That author is stupid. Trying to be like stick and ball sports is not going to make NASCAR as popular as stick and ball sports. Stick and ball sports need that playoff crap because you don't see every team playing together on one field at the same time. In NASCAR, every team competes on one track at the same time, so a playoff format is not needed. And the proposed changes are not fair to drivers who have issues out of their control once the chase starts, as they are pretty much eliminated within their segment.

Long story short, NASCAR is very different from stick and ball sports, and shouldn't be treated like stick and ball sports.
 
PeopleAreStrange said:
That author is stupid. Trying to be like stick and ball sports is not going to make NASCAR as popular as stick and ball sports. Stick and ball sports need that playoff crap because you don't see every team playing together on one field at the same time. In NASCAR, every team competes on one track at the same time, so a playoff format is not needed. And the proposed changes are not fair to drivers who have issues out of their control once the chase starts, as they are pretty much eliminated within their segment.

Long story short, NASCAR is very different from stick and ball sports, and shouldn't be treated like stick and ball sports.
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Another thing this columnist is missing is that stick and ball sports are played on regulation sized fields/courts/rinks. In the NFL, you don't have one team that plays on a 70-yard field and another that plays on a 120-yard field. Baseball has a little variation between parks as far as how far back the walls are, but the diamonds are all regulation size. NASCAR tracks, however, come in all shapes and sizes. So it doesn't seem right that the whole season comes down to how well a driver performs on 1 of the series' 23 tracks.
 
PeopleAreStrange said:
That author is stupid. Trying to be like stick and ball sports is not going to make NASCAR as popular as stick and ball sports. Stick and ball sports need that playoff crap because you don't see every team playing together on one field at the same time. In NASCAR, every team competes on one track at the same time, so a playoff format is not needed. And the proposed changes are not fair to drivers who have issues out of their control once the chase starts, as they are pretty much eliminated within their segment.

Long story short, NASCAR is very different from stick and ball sports, and shouldn't be treated like stick and ball sports.
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I agree.. I know its different than a stick n ball sport... but for people who aren't currently fans the appeal of the stick n ball type playoff system could get them into it. Even if they just watch a few of the chase races this year and see something they like... The first time I ever took the time to watch a full race I became a fan for life.. so imo that's what NASCAR needs to do.. get people that haven't before to watch a full race or two, then I would think they'll continue to watch. I said in an earlier post that when I first became a fan of NASCAR and found out about the chase I was excited because I've always been a hockey fan and that's what appealed to me. I'm sure if I had found out about the chase a couple years earlier I probably would have started watching earlier. I get that NASCAR should stick to appeasing the fans it has ..but if they want more and they want to take them from other sports... this is how.
 
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