NASCAR no longer allocating money to non-chartered teams?

Kiante

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Gaunt and GoFas are screwed then.

I'm not understanding it, but I guess all of the former "Fluff" entries of the past are no more. I just don't understand why they do not increase the charters for teams who are already in competition? Grandfather the open teams, who have been competitive into the system IMO. Gaunt and GoFas will more than likely have to shutter operations or just attempt to run "Big Money" events. I get why its being done, but I'm not a fan of putting the foot on the neck of teams who have been out there competing at a decent level wanting to improve, yet with this move that disallows that entirely.

The upside is that it makes charters now the most valuable thing for teams, meaning teams will be able to make even more money off of the charters... Also, it has been said that NASCAR does not want to create more charters without another manufacturer jumping into the picture. I'd say create two more charters, but I'm not apart of the sanctioning body or RTA. This will make the Cup Series that much more "Premier" with holding exclusively to 36 cars.

Is it necessary? I personally do not believe so, but at the end of the day, I run no books behind the scenes. I just want to see healthy teams long-term and still give open teams some reason to show up and compete to get their feet wet. The current batch of teams agreed with the RTA and I don't even care for Kauffman myself, but its not a charity as he said a few years ago.

However, if Rick Ware is largely uncompetitive why do they still hold onto so many charters? I thought it specified a certain performance of chartered organization to maintain the charter? This is no offense to Ware, but lets be real they have a revolving door of drivers with no type of consistency for the most part. That's been one of my biggest questions about the whole deal.
 

DIDIT

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So, now, if you can't get a charter, there's no point in even trying to enter the sport.



I ****** hate what Rob Kauffman's doing to NASCAR.
Can someone clarify? Does this mean a team that does not have a charter will not receive any money from a race? Trying to understand if this payment is separate from the race purse.
 

gnomesayin

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It's not tenable to create a collective franchise team model and then allocate guaranteed support for non-franchise participants. This was the inevitable trend.

The pandemic economy of 2020 and 2021 and the delay of the Next Gen car to 2022 require that all efforts be made to keep the full-time teams solvent.
 

hmmm298

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Can someone clarify? Does this mean a team that does not have a charter will not receive any money from a race? Trying to understand if this payment is separate from the race purse.

I'm also wondering, just for example if small team like Spire wins a race like Justin haley did at Daytona a couple of years ago, be it due to weather of even if because so many others crash out in a plate race, will they get any prize money for that if they do not have a charter? Or will they not get any prize even for winning.

I understand this is very unlikely, but I did provide an example to show that it is atleast POSSIBLE.

On the bright side, I do believe IF the teams still have atleast some kind of chance to make money (prize money), then while I do not agree with or like this, it does possibly help eliminate some start and park issues.
 
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Kiante

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It's not tenable to create a collective franchise team model and then allocate guaranteed support for non-franchise participants. This was the inevitable trend.

The pandemic economy of 2020 and 2021 and the delay of the Next Gen car to 2022 require that all efforts be made to keep the full-time teams solvent.
That's the thing, I feel as two competitive open teams, Gaunt and GoFas, should be given the option to buy/lease and maintain a charter from Ware. Ware is not making enough progress IMO to keep a minimum of the three or four charters they have. At least Gaunt and GoFas are top 25-30 cars and has shown ability to be competitive in some capacity.

People can say, "We hate the RTA" and I have stated on occasions that I do not care for it. Also, I have said the whole "F*ck Kauffman" as well, however if it allows teams to actually have some type of profit off of being a team owner, I cannot argue about it. I know Germain and Leavine have closed shop, which was awful, but we see three new teams created within the new RTA backed system. The question is seeing if these organizations make it long-term in Trackhouse, 23XI, and BJMM-Tifft can make it and maintain.

These teams with multi-million/billion dollar corporations need to turn some form of profit. The Sanctioning body in NASCAR is doing well, but these teams need the money. More money for the 36 cars and less cuts to make with open teams out of the picture. It's cut-throat, but anybody for the right price can buy or lease a charter from any of these teams.
 
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NASCAR Apologist

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If you have the capital to start a NASCAR Cup team you should be able to pay for a charter. Three groups did this offseason. Raising the barrier to entry doesn't seem to have weakened the field at all. Knowing you have a certain revenue stream locked in each year helps with that more than it hurts.

If there are that many groups breaking down doors trying to get in then Mr. Ware should cash out eventually. I'm sure he could take the money to whatever parts of the globe his team hasn't touched yet. Maybe it's not a bad idea to hoard charters with more anticipated interest in the next few years.

With the economics of today and the forseeable future I don't see a problem with looking out more for those with a stake in the game. The new charter agreement also includes a larger percentage of revenue generated by NASCAR and the tracks so I think it's a bit much we're up in arms about 36 teams getting stronger guaranteed revenue streams for the next four years.
 

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Have they changed the rules on Charters? At one time if you finished last a few years in a row you lost the charter so teams have kept moving them around to prevent being last. This should not be allowed. Register the Charter to a team and let the chips fall where they may.
 

Hendrick4ever

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If you have the capital to start a NASCAR Cup team you should be able to pay for a charter. Three groups did this offseason. Raising the barrier to entry doesn't seem to have weakened the field at all. Knowing you have a certain revenue stream locked in each year helps with that more than it hurts.

If there are that many groups breaking down doors trying to get in then Mr. Ware should cash out eventually. I'm sure he could take the money to whatever parts of the globe his team hasn't touched yet. Maybe it's not a bad idea to hoard charters with more anticipated interest in the next few years.

With the economics of today and the forseeable future I don't see a problem with looking out more for those with a stake in the game. The new charter agreement also includes a larger percentage of revenue generated by NASCAR and the tracks so I think it's a bit much we're up in arms about 36 teams getting stronger guaranteed revenue streams for the next four years.
Or RWR could cash out half their charters, and use that extra money to make their remaining chartered teams competitive.
 

Kiante

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Or RWR could cash out half their charters, and use that extra money to make their remaining chartered teams competitive.
Spire bought the charter LFR was using. Spire does not need two cars IMO, but they are working on becoming more competitive.

Some of these teams do not need a second charter, buy one charter and actually become competitive with the one in hand. At the same time, having more charters will make them more or less valuable, depending on the performance of the team.

I expect Trackhouse and 23XI will be competitive out of the box for the most part. However, looking at Spire and Ware's progress atm, it makes me question why a performance initiative has not been put in place? No progress, no extra/additional charter. An open team that missed the first race in Gaunt finished ahead of all them in the point standings. So why not let that team lease one of the charters they hold?
 

Charlie Spencer

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Ware has money for everything else from NASCAR to Sportscars.

Even has a driver development program. That's the biggest question mark to me IMO.
I'll be convinced when he puts his ride buyers in the same car consistently. I don't know what the motivation is to move drivers around between cars every week but you can't build a cohesive team like that. Until that stops, I'll regard RWR as more interested in making money than collecting trophies.
 

wi_racefan

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Ware has money for everything else from NASCAR to Sportscars.

Even has a driver development program. That's the biggest question mark to me IMO.

You assume RWR is interested in becoming more competitive.

I think running the team at a profit is #1 and being completive is #2. I don't care for them, but they can't overspend and expect to stay around
 

wi_racefan

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If you have the capital to start a NASCAR Cup team you should be able to pay for a charter. Three groups did this offseason. Raising the barrier to entry doesn't seem to have weakened the field at all. Knowing you have a certain revenue stream locked in each year helps with that more than it hurts.

You may have capital to start a team but I can see where they don't have the additional to purchase a charter. I heard something over the weekend that the rumor is they are sell in the 4-6 million range right now. That's a ton of additional money you need to spend to buy your way into the sport considering they say the top teams run with a budget of roughly 20 mil a year.
 

wi_racefan

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Spire bought the charter LFR was using. Spire does not need two cars IMO, but they are working on becoming more competitive.

I listened to the interview of whoever it was from leadership at spire when they discussed them purchasing the second one and basically what I got out of it was they bought it to maintain the values of the charters. You have to remember that they are a marketing company for several teams so they have a vested interest in making sure that charter values stay as high as possible.
 

Kiante

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I think running the team at a profit is #1 and being completive is #2. I don't care for them, but they can't overspend and expect to stay around
True. I'm not saying Ware should go away, I wish they would make a little more head room for themselves. At the same time, running on a shoe-string budget will do that. I just think they should be limited charters to two because of their position in the field.

Get to a certain point of performance, then you can expand teams again. More charters mean more chances of teams leasing one, then if they decide to leave the charter comes back according to where that team was placed on the ladder.

It's honestly a business savvy move.
 

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Spire Motorsports has three charters. They have leased one to Justin Marks. The reason they bought out LFR's charter is to run two cars, for the property equipment and shop that LFR had so they can house their two race cars. No tinfoil hats required
 

Kiante

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Spire Motorsports has three charters. They have leased one to Justin Marks. The reason they bought out LFR's charter is to run two cars, for the property equipment and shop that LFR had so they can house their two race cars. No tinfoil hats required
No wonder Bob was kicking and screaming on the way out.
 

aunty dive

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The Toledo Mud Hens don't have a "charter".

They earn less per game than the New York Yankees.
 

aunty dive

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The Mudhens aren’t a major league team. you’re comparing Xfinity to Cup.
You're so literal sometimes.

I'm aware of the Mud Hens' stature and status. They don't have a major league baseball franchise.

In "our" sport, it won't be long before the Mud Hens and their peers aren't in The Show. It seems clear that has always been the RTA way.
 

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Off topic, but between the pandemic and the new business model MLB would LIKE to implement, an awful lot of those minor league baseball teams will be out of business, or at the very least turned loose to fend for themselves. Back to racing, I've been on record as not supporting the RTA or the charter system, and it's unlikely that is ever going to change. Like so many things NASCAR has done, if this was going to happen, it should have been done forty years ago when there were LOTS of team owners that really could have used this type of safety net. Now it's just a bunch of millionaires trying to protect their turf and trying to control who enters their little private club.
 

aunty dive

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Yeah ... how dare the NASCAR millionaires operate the same way every other professional sport operates.

The nerve of those guys!
 

Formerjackman

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Yeah ... how dare the NASCAR millionaires operate the same way every other professional sport operates.

The nerve of those guys!
And the franchise system in other sports has been used as weapon to get rid of people they don't like or to keep out people they don't like, all the while making billionaires out of millionaires and people who just happened to be born into the right spot (See Jim Irsay). Frankly, like so many other things, I don't think auto racing can be or should be put into the same kind of box as other sports. The modes of operation and the business models are so different. Besides, do we REALLY want race teams that can suck for fifty years and be profitable, while people who could likely do a MUCH better job are frozen out?
 

gnomesayin

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I don't believe that comparisons to professional team sports leagues hold up well. A franchise there amounts to exclusive rights to a specific geographic territory, resulting in exclusive streams of revenue that other franchises do not compete for. On top of that, there is collective sharing of league-wide revenue. In those examples, the franchises effectively own the league.

That said, there is nothing inherently wrong with charters existing as a form of a license, or with existing team owners acting collectively to advance their mutual interests, especially since they very much do not own the league.
 

Formerjackman

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This business model appears to be working to me.

If it wasn't, people wouldn't be interested in participation.

The rules were made by the people already IN the club. The price to play the game is now to play it by THEIR rules. The system worked a lot better when you either went fast or went home, and there was never a shortage of people willing to play by THOSE rules.
 

Greg

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The Toledo Mud Hens don't have a "charter".

They earn less per game than the New York Yankees.
It is all about priorities.
The Mud Hens don't deserve a charter.
Any baseball team calling themselves the Mud Hens should make a play on the words, and get them some damn smoking hawt ball girls. They have none on Google images and they are a sorry (no) ass disappointment.

The Philadelphia Phillies has ball girls at least going back to the 1970s and they are worthy of a charter.
 

Team Penske

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You may have capital to start a team but I can see where they don't have the additional to purchase a charter. I heard something over the weekend that the rumor is they are sell in the 4-6 million range right now. That's a ton of additional money you need to spend to buy your way into the sport considering they say the top teams run with a budget of roughly 20 mil a year.
You can't buy a franchise in any ball sport for under 100 million.
 

aunty dive

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The rules were made by the people already IN the club. The price to play the game is now to play it by THEIR rules. The system worked a lot better when you either went fast or went home, and there was never a shortage of people willing to play by THOSE rules.
Those rules didn’t contemplate a $20,000 per car tire bill every weekend. The rules are always made by people IN the club.

I realize that’s a tough pill to swallow but swallow it you will.
 

StandOnIt

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The rules were made by the people already IN the club. The price to play the game is now to play it by THEIR rules. The system worked a lot better when you either went fast or went home, and there was never a shortage of people willing to play by THOSE rules.
More nostalgia nonsense. The go fasters kept getting more technical, and the price of going fast priced the little guys out of the sport. It wasn't knock out the windshield and throw on some truck tires and go for it. That didn't last very long. When the sport peaked over 20 years ago they dropped like flies when the easy money dried up.
 

Formerjackman

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Some would say the sport peaked when they started subsidizing mediocrity with things like champion's provisionals, and then guaranteed starting spots and making people buy a charter just have a right to the money they EARNED by being on the track and racing.
 

StandOnIt

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Some would say the sport peaked when they started subsidizing mediocrity with things like champion's provisionals, and then guaranteed starting spots and making people buy a charter just have a right to the money they EARNED by being on the track and racing.
well once again, all of these teams have untold dollars tied up in equipment and manpower. This isn't nostalgia row where two guys in a garage can put a piece on the track and have any chance at all of doing well, this is 2020, nor should they have a piece of the pie winnings as teams that show up every race for big money and small. They can go race ARCA or some other lower series with those low buck low technical outfits.
 
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