NASCAR no longer allocating money to non-chartered teams?

jws926

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Gaunt and GoFas are screwed then.
Go Fas was screwed when they lost one of their main primary's , they arent running full time next year , so I don't think its going to screw them that much, GB on the other hand.
 

AuzGrams

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I don’t like getting rid of the non-charter money but if it means allocating the money to have 36 competitive teams, you do it.

NASCAR needs to let Rick Ware Racing to pick up the pace next season.
 

aunty dive

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Semantics.

Every professional sport on the planet has some form of franchised ownership. I'm surprised it took as long as it did for NASCAR to recognize the inherent value of its teams' operations.
 

Team Penske

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But the operating budget for any ball sport team is no where near 20 million a year, it far exceeds that
Yes it is but it shows that if you want to play in the big leagues you better have the money to do it. It was to easy for S&P teams to try and qualify and so they were taking part of the purse for very little effort. Like I said tighten up the requirement to keep your Charter and the Don't Haves will stay home. This is not a charity.
 

Spotter22

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This business model appears to be working to me.

If it wasn't, people wouldn't be interested in participation.
This is all setting up for 2021. The cost to field a team will be cut in half and we will see an influx of new blood. This is exactly why the charter was created, to increase value of being in the Nations top tier racing series.
 

wi_racefan

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This is all setting up for 2021. The cost to field a team will be cut in half and we will see an influx of new blood. This is exactly why the charter was created, to increase value of being in the Nations top tier racing series.
In theory teams will be able to operate at a significantly lower cost, but you have to remember that nascar is not imposing a spending cap so there is nothing to prevent teams from taking money that they used to pour into chassis design and aero and moving it to something else to get a performance advantage.

Like I've said before teams don't really want to spend less money, they want their competition to not be able to.

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Spotter22

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In theory teams will be able to operate at a significantly lower cost, but you have to remember that nascar is not imposing a spending cap so there is nothing to prevent teams from taking money that they used to pour into chassis design and aero and moving it to something else to get a performance advantage.

Like I've said before teams don't really want to spend less money, they want their competition to not be able to.

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The chassis will be built by someone else other then the teams which cant be altered and the bodies will be basically untouchable. Same with the suspension parts etc..... The owners arent getting the sponsor dollars like they used to especially in 2020 so yes they will welcome the relief. But like I was saying with the costs being lower it will bring in new teams thus making the charters more valuable.
 

StandOnIt

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The chassis will be built by someone else other then the teams which cant be altered and the bodies will be basically untouchable. Same with the suspension parts etc..... The owners arent getting the sponsor dollars like they used to especially in 2020 so yes they will welcome the relief. But like I was saying with the costs being lower it will bring in new teams thus making the charters more valuable.
Along the same lines, I'm sure Nascar will have an inspection machine up to the task and inspectors paid to find "improvements" the teams make. The big money teams will have everything blueprinted to the max and yeah that is going to cost money to hold that degree of quality, but the box to pour money in will be smaller. Like you said standardized parts are the key. They won't have different suspension and body setups for every track. Hopefully not a truck full of 20 thousand dollar shocks.
 

Spotter22

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Along the same lines, I'm sure Nascar will have an inspection machine up to the task and inspectors paid to find "improvements" the teams make. The big money teams will have everything blueprinted to the max and yeah that is going to cost money to hold that degree of quality, but the box to pour money in will be smaller. Like you said standardized parts are the key. They won't have different suspension and body setups for every track. Hopefully not a truck full of 20 thousand dollar shocks.
Not sure if they will regulate shocks or brake packages.
 

wi_racefan

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Not sure if they will regulate shocks or brake packages.

As far as I know they haven't actually come out and said which parts have to be standard parts besides the chassis (which is very vague) and the body.

Anyone who thinks that these teams won't find the things that they can still modify and manipulate and pour millions into that is a fool. Like normal you save them money somewhere so that they can spend it somewhere else.
 

StandOnIt

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As far as I know they haven't actually come out and said which parts have to be standard parts besides the chassis (which is very vague) and the body.

Anyone who thinks that these teams won't find the things that they can still modify and manipulate and pour millions into that is a fool. Like normal you save them money somewhere so that they can spend it somewhere else.
I think some are confused and think teams will continue spending at the rates they are now. With standardized parts their expenses will be lower. It they aren't going to be why do it in the first place? I can't see anybody thinking that the teams won't spend money some more than others.
 

Spotter22

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As far as I know they haven't actually come out and said which parts have to be standard parts besides the chassis (which is very vague) and the body.

Anyone who thinks that these teams won't find the things that they can still modify and manipulate and pour millions into that is a fool. Like normal you save them money somewhere so that they can spend it somewhere else.
I'm not a fool sir. I know the business and yes they will have standard suspension parts mandated by NASCAR. Perhaps you can tell us where they will spend the money. There are still areas where they can do research and development but that will be DRASTICALLY reduced.
 

Formerjackman

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I'm not a fool sir. I know the business and yes they will have standard suspension parts mandated by NASCAR. Perhaps you can tell us where they will spend the money. There are still areas where they can do research and development but that will be DRASTICALLY reduced.

And when it is all said and done the same 4-5 teams will win 98% of the races. Indycar already went down this road and there aren't any more teams than there were before, and the same three teams still win almost everything. It just is what it is.
 
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StandOnIt

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And when it is all said and done the same 4-5 teams will win 98% of the races. Indycar already went down this road and there aren't any more teams than there were before, and the same three teams still win almost everything. It just is what it is.
The reduced costs are to help other teams who want to get into the sport, maybe even another manufacturer. Yeah we know the same teams will probably win the majority of the races. I don't believe that is the point. More participation is with less money.
 

wi_racefan

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I'm not a fool sir. I know the business and yes they will have standard suspension parts mandated by NASCAR. Perhaps you can tell us where they will spend the money. There are still areas where they can do research and development but that will be DRASTICALLY reduced.

I'd imagine there's still a ton of areas to mess around in. Look at some of the stuff teams found in the past to gain advantages. Nascar has a whole stock pile of parts and rules written regarding it. Teams will literally look at anything that is not a standard part and sometimes try to get away with manipulating a standard part (look at someone getting caught messing with a spoiler this year) and figure out how to gain a performance advantage.

I know with the Xfinity cars even thought they have a composite body you can still manipulate aero by adjusting body mounting points. I think it will still be the same things. How can we stay in this box, but manipulate the air flow over, under and thru (wheel wells and thru the windows) of the car for an advantage. Look how much air can be manipulated with tape and blowers. Guys will research the crap out of this to gain an advantage. I remember watching qualify for the 500 on year and the 22 was was driving on handed to try to manipulate the air coming thru the window net. Another in car camera I remember watching the 2 turning blowers on and off every lap depending if he was on a straightaway or a corner. Someone figured out it was better to run a wiper on the cars at road courses even when it was sunny out to manipulate the air.

I still would think they will give teams some freedom as to what shocks and springs they can run, which opens up another box.

Look at what some teams were spending building batteries to gain an advantage.

This new car has no team data on it so I can only imagine the amount of money spent to figure out how to trim it out to best perform on the track around other cars.

With the new single lugs imagine how much will be spent of trying to optimize that pit stop

I've been around racing long enough to know that guys will spend as much money as they get their hands on to try to make a car faster.
 

Spotter22

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I'd imagine there's still a ton of areas to mess around in. Look at some of the stuff teams found in the past to gain advantages. Nascar has a whole stock pile of parts and rules written regarding it. Teams will literally look at anything that is not a standard part and sometimes try to get away with manipulating a standard part (look at someone getting caught messing with a spoiler this year) and figure out how to gain a performance advantage.

I know with the Xfinity cars even thought they have a composite body you can still manipulate aero by adjusting body mounting points. I think it will still be the same things. How can we stay in this box, but manipulate the air flow over, under and thru (wheel wells and thru the windows) of the car for an advantage. Look how much air can be manipulated with tape and blowers. Guys will research the crap out of this to gain an advantage. I remember watching qualify for the 500 on year and the 22 was was driving on handed to try to manipulate the air coming thru the window net. Another in car camera I remember watching the 2 turning blowers on and off every lap depending if he was on a straightaway or a corner. Someone figured out it was better to run a wiper on the cars at road courses even when it was sunny out to manipulate the air.

I still would think they will give teams some freedom as to what shocks and springs they can run, which opens up another box.

Look at what some teams were spending building batteries to gain an advantage.

This new car has no team data on it so I can only imagine the amount of money spent to figure out how to trim it out to best perform on the track around other cars.

With the new single lugs imagine how much will be spent of trying to optimize that pit stop

I've been around racing long enough to know that guys will spend as much money as they get their hands on to try to make a car faster.
I've been in racing long enough to know the better stuff you get the faster you will go. I also know they are taking away critical areas of the car that we used to manipulate and no longer will be able to do so. This is unlike anything NASCAR has ever done and the comparisons to yesterday's car is a mute point. The RTA played a large role in this for NASCAR to stop the spending madness the teams created so they can continue to field a car. Sponsor dollars are falling like a rock so budgets will be tight and corners will be cut. Period
 

AuzGrams

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And when it is all said and done the same 4-5 teams will win 98% of the races. Indycar already went down this road and there aren't any more teams than there were before, and the same three teams still win almost everything. It just is what it is.

Negative Nancy. Seems like IndyCar is having good car counts in a Covid year?
 

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Has anyone confirmed the Carl Long statements in the original post? Is this happening for sure?
No clue, I understand his frustration.

At the end of the day, if you want to play, you have to pay for the charter.

Also, why stop allowing the leasing of charters? If the team who is using it is competitive, it drives up the value of the charter for the lender of the charter.
 

Charlie Spencer

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Also, why stop allowing the leasing of charters? If the team who is using it is competitive, it drives up the value of the charter for the lender of the charter.
Remind me, has any team running under a leased charter been competitive? Has one been in the top 30 at the end of the season?
 

Formerjackman

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Negative Nancy. Seems like IndyCar is having good car counts in a Covid year?

Not negative, I'm just pointing out that after kind of reinventing itself, there are pretty much the same number of teams there always was, and the same people win all the races. The fine details may change, but the overall picture never does, and it won't with NASCAR either. Whether it costs one million dollars a year or ten million dollars as year to field a 35th place Cup team, there will be car owners claiming they are being priced out of the market and that costs are all out of balance. Meanwhile, the big guys of the world say all the right things and then turn around and dump every dollar they can justify to themselves into their race teams. There was a VERY narrow window in the mid-90's when a it was possible to bring much more money into a team than you could spend, but the teams fixed that in a hurry, and within a short period of time everything was right back to the way it has been for all of recorded history. If the team brings in a dollar, they will spend anywhere from $.95-1.10 to chasing the next dollar. For one thing, if the finances turn around, there are going to be some drivers that are going to start demanding a much bigger piece of the pie. Anybody want to take a guess at what Chase Elliott's NEXT contract is going to look like?
 

StandOnIt

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Drastically cutting the costs of the car makes it much easier to run a non chartered car is one of the bottom lines (reality). I really can't see all of the boo whoo ing that is going on.
 

Formerjackman

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Drastically cutting the costs of the car makes it much easier to run a non chartered car is one of the bottom lines (reality). I really can't see all of the boo whoo ing that is going on.
The bottom of the field is still the bottom of the field no matter what that costs, and they will STILL be telling you the dollars don't make any sense. Look at it this way. America has the most affluent poor people in the entire world (many own homes, nearly all own cars, often more than one, they have cell phones, cable TV and more) and yet all we hear is how the country isn't doing enough for them, and the rich don't pay enough taxes and the whole deck is stacked against them. Meanwhile, the whole rest of the world's poor only dream of being American poor. That's kind of how I feel about lower tier teams in the top racing series in the country. Next, I think that if NASCAR can entice a few more teams like Jordan and Kaulig, the whole field will be chartered and there won't BE any non chartered ones, which means the price of getting into the game just got a WHOLE LOT more expensive. After that it's just a short jump to having to get the other owner's approval to even BUY a charter.
 

Spotter22

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The bottom of the field is still the bottom of the field no matter what that costs, and they will STILL be telling you the dollars don't make any sense. Look at it this way. America has the most affluent poor people in the entire world (many own homes, nearly all own cars, often more than one, they have cell phones, cable TV and more) and yet all we hear is how the country isn't doing enough for them, and the rich don't pay enough taxes and the whole deck is stacked against them. Meanwhile, the whole rest of the world's poor only dream of being American poor. That's kind of how I feel about lower tier teams in the top racing series in the country. Next, I think that if NASCAR can entice a few more teams like Jordan and Kaulig, the whole field will be chartered and there won't BE any non chartered ones, which means the price of getting into the game just got a WHOLE LOT more expensive. After that it's just a short jump to having to get the other owner's approval to even BUY a charter.
Doesnt mean that the field wont be closer because it absolutely will. I think NASCAR will reevaluate the 36 car field and expand it if enough owners want to test the waters.
 

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Doesnt mean that the field wont be closer because it absolutely will. I think NASCAR will reevaluate the 36 car field and expand it if enough owners want to test the waters.
and can afford to buy a charter to compete. I never understood why anyone would want a guy like Carl Long to be a big time owner, he just doesn't have the means of doing so and shouldn't be allowed to hang around taking pieces of the purse for so little effort. So lets get the best financed teams on the track and see who has the best drivers.
 

wi_racefan

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Doesnt mean that the field wont be closer because it absolutely will. I think NASCAR will reevaluate the 36 car field and expand it if enough owners want to test the waters.

At the end of the day does a closer field matter? If you're 36th and 30 seconds, 1 lap or 10 laps back you're still 36th. Having a close field and more competitive cars IMO are 2 completely different things.
 

sdj

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and can afford to buy a charter to compete. I never understood why anyone would want a guy like Carl Long to be a big time owner, he just doesn't have the means of doing so and shouldn't be allowed to hang around taking pieces of the purse for so little effort. So lets get the best financed teams on the track and see who has the best drivers.
paddy.jpg
 

Formerjackman

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Doesnt mean that the field wont be closer because it absolutely will. I think NASCAR will reevaluate the 36 car field and expand it if enough owners want to test the waters.
I promise you they WILL offer more charters if the right people want them. If Jordan and Denny want four charters, they will get four, whether there are any available to buy or not....
 

Formerjackman

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and can afford to buy a charter to compete. I never understood why anyone would want a guy like Carl Long to be a big time owner, he just doesn't have the means of doing so and shouldn't be allowed to hang around taking pieces of the purse for so little effort. So lets get the best financed teams on the track and see who has the best drivers.

The question is though, WHO gets to decide that? What sort of resume/bank account are you going to have to accumulate before you are allowed to even TRY the next level? That's where it starts to be like the stick and ball franchises where if you are deemed "unacceptable" you are frozen out. Hell, the MLB blackballed Mark Cuban......
 

AuzGrams

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What’s stopping Carl Long from buying a charter from Ware?

Carl isn’t getting blackballed from anything, he doesn’t have the budget and money that other owners do besides maybe somebody like Ware.
 

aunty dive

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I promise you they WILL offer more charters if the right people want them. If Jordan and Denny want four charters, they will get four, whether there are any available to buy or not....
Empty promise.

The number is 36. Add charters and the 36 earn less. That won’t be happening.
 

StandOnIt

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I don’t like getting rid of the non-charter money but if it means allocating the money to have 36 competitive teams, you do it.

NASCAR needs to let Rick Ware Racing to pick up the pace next season.
If Ware continues to run at the bottom of the 36 chartered teams for three years in a row or anybody else does for that matter, Nascar "can" remove their charter. I wouldn't hold my breath though, it would probably take pressure from a team(s) that was running well and had the money to spend. Turnover with charters can happen because teams can only lease out a charter once in five years.
 

Formerjackman

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What’s stopping Carl Long from buying a charter from Ware?

Carl isn’t getting blackballed from anything, he doesn’t have the budget and money that other owners do besides maybe somebody like Ware.

I'm not talking about NOW. I'm talking about where this will undoubtedly end up.
 

Formerjackman

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Empty promise.

The number is 36. Add charters and the 36 earn less. That won’t be happening.

News headline: "NASCAR denies Michael Jordan, the sports only minority car owner additional charters". That's the headline that WON'T be be happening
 

aunty dive

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It will never be a headline.

There is a process in place. Professionalism is a difficult concept for some people.
 
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