NASCAR no longer allocating money to non-chartered teams?

Formerjackman said:
sdj said:
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So, you have the capita to start a team. Cool, but if you cannot buy the charter that's on the owner man. It's basically the entry fee to get in the door, maybe Carl and MBM should solely focus on Xfinity Series and actually attempt to be more competitive.

Carl Long loves the sport, but he should seriously consider continuing to work with HRE on the Xfinity side. That 61 car has potential to be pretty solid, if they continue to out in effort together. It would help his case if he actually would be more than a field filler. It sucks, bit he has two other series he can enter where and his organization can make some actual progress.
 
aunty dive said:
It will never be a headline.

There is a process in place. Professionalism is a difficult concept for some people.
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The process will be bent any which way they want it to bend. The rules will be molded to suit NASCAR's and the RTA's goals at any given time. If Michael Jordan (or any other cultural icon) wants to get involved in the sport in a big way and bring millions of dollars of sponsorship money and media attention to the sport, everyone will set aside whatever their short term financial concerns are for the "greater good". As for professionalism, Professionalism and NASCAR management have often been strangers. Do I have to remind you of the complete bungling of the "noose" incident? How about the entire Brian France reign?
 
Kiante said:
So, you have the capita to start a team. Cool, but if you cannot buy the charter that's on the owner man. It's basically the entry fee to get in the door, maybe Carl and MBM should solely focus on Xfinity Series and actually attempt to be more competitive.

Carl Long loves the sport, but he should seriously consider continuing to work with HRE on the Xfinity side. That 61 car has potential to be pretty solid, if they continue to out in effort together. It would help his case if he actually would be more than a field filler. It sucks, bit he has two other series he can enter where and his organization can make some actual progress.
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I don't disagree with your assessment of Carl's situation one bit. All I'm saying is that smart or not, it should be HIS decision to compete at the Cup level. I don't want that decision taken out of his hands and that is what I fear happening in the future.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Can’t deny what doesn’t exist.
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All I'm telling you is that IF Michael Jordan wants four chartered teams, the sport will do WHATEVER it has to do to make it happen. Whether lesser teams are "enticed" to sell, or more charters are made available, mountains will be moved to make it happen.
 
Formerjackman said:
All I'm telling you is that IF Michael Jordan wants four chartered teams, the sport will do WHATEVER it has to do to make it happen. Whether lesser teams are "enticed" to sell, or more charters are made available, mountains will be moved to make it happen.
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The NBA didn't squat and produce a team for him. He had to buy one, same as any other owner wannabe. Why would NASCAR be any different? Hell, they didn't create a charter for him for this new team.

It's all moot since he isn't going to ask.
 
Kiante said:
So, you have the capita to start a team. Cool, but if you cannot buy the charter that's on the owner man. It's basically the entry fee to get in the door, maybe Carl and MBM should solely focus on Xfinity Series and actually attempt to be more competitive.

Carl Long loves the sport, but he should seriously consider continuing to work with HRE on the Xfinity side. That 61 car has potential to be pretty solid, if they continue to out in effort together. It would help his case if he actually would be more than a field filler. It sucks, bit he has two other series he can enter where and his organization can make some actual progress.
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The point of my comment is: CARL makes the decision to do or not to do a race, race team or drive, not anyone else. As far as I know, this is still a free country and an open sport.
 
sdj said:
The point of my comment is: CARL makes the decision to do or not to do a race, race team or drive, not anyone else. As far as I know, this is still a free country and an open sport.
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I know that confuses some. Unless he is barred he can't, but if he can qualify he races. That was before no qualify and no practice Covid. I frankly don't know what the hell they are doing now, I haven't been paying much attention. Nascar is shooting from the hip with the Covid stuff and I think they are doing a heck of a job not pissing anybody off and abiding by the rules/restrictions that can change overnight. A very part timer like Carl or any other part timers might get the short end of the stick with the circumstances going on right now, but it's temporary.
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't disagree with your assessment of Carl's situation one bit. All I'm saying is that smart or not, it should be HIS decision to compete at the Cup level. I don't want that decision taken out of his hands and that is what I fear happening in the future.
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sdj said:
The point of my comment is: CARL makes the decision to do or not to do a race, race team or drive, not anyone else. As far as I know, this is still a free country and an open sport.
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I understand, but remember all of the rolling chicanes that would cause incidents at times of the past?

Well, that's less of a chance for a backmarker to throw a wrench in races. Carl certainly has the freedom to do what is necessary for his team, however the RTA and the sanctioning body is telling owners like him to spend less time groaning and moaning on the internet and actually do something about not being able to afford a charter. He has the freedom to enter in the Truck and Xfinity Series as well and enter as many cars and trucks as he wants to.

I want to see him succeed, trust me I do, but until he gets a charter its pretty much set in stone.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
The NBA didn't squat and produce a team for him. He had to buy one, same as any other owner wannabe. Why would NASCAR be any different? Hell, they didn't create a charter for him for this new team.

It's all moot since he isn't going to ask.
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The NBA doesn't have a point to prove like NASCAR does. NASCAR hasn't had to do anything yet, because there was a charter available. You ALL seem to have missed my point. I'm saying if Jordan WANTS more, and nobody wants to sell one, either somebody will be "convinced" to sell one or NASCAR will make more charters available.
 
Formerjackman said:
The NBA doesn't have a point to prove like NASCAR does. NASCAR hasn't had to do anything yet, because there was a charter available. You ALL seem to have missed my point. I'm saying if Jordan WANTS more, and nobody wants to sell one, either somebody will be "convinced" to sell one or NASCAR will make more charters available.
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Anything is for sale for a price. Also you would think if interest starts increasing in these things they'll start squeezing the bottom teams to sell....
 
wi_racefan said:
Anything is for sale for a price. Also you would think if interest starts increasing in these things they'll start squeezing the bottom teams to sell....
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as I posted way back on this round n round mess, There are a number of ways to acquire a charter. It isn't a big deal.

If Ware continues to run at the bottom of the 36 chartered teams for three years in a row or anybody else does for that matter, Nascar "can" remove their charter. I wouldn't hold my breath though, it would probably take pressure from a team(s) that was running well and had the money to spend. Turnover with charters can happen because teams can only lease out a charter once in five years.
 
StandOnIt said:
If Ware continues to run at the bottom of the 36 chartered teams for three years in a row or anybody else does for that matter, Nascar "can" remove their charter. I wouldn't hold my breath though, it would probably take pressure from a team(s) that was running well and had the money to spend. Turnover with charters can happen because teams can only lease out a charter once in five years.
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If you own 3 charters you can change which one runs last every season so that Nascar can't take it away. Run the Charter or lose it is the only way as far as I am concerned.
I also think you should have a car top 25 in a season before applying for another. If you can't run 1 car why let them run 3.
 
wi_racefan said:
You may have capital to start a team but I can see where they don't have the additional to purchase a charter. I heard something over the weekend that the rumor is they are sell in the 4-6 million range right now. That's a ton of additional money you need to spend to buy your way into the sport considering they say the top teams run with a budget of roughly 20 mil a year.
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Unlike other investments required to start a team, a charter more than pays for itself over time. You should at least be able to acquire financing for that asset if you’re respectable enough and there’s that much interest to get in at the bottom that the going rates are mid seven figures.
 
sdj said:
The point of my comment is: CARL makes the decision to do or not to do a race, race team or drive, not anyone else. As far as I know, this is still a free country and an open sport.
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Where you live?
 
Team Penske said:
If you own 3 charters you can change which one runs last every season so that Nascar can't take it away. Run the Charter or lose it is the only way as far as I am concerned.
I also think you should have a car top 25 in a season before applying for another. If you can't run 1 car why let them run 3.
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If a Charter team finishes in the bottom three of the owner standings among all 36 Charter teams for three consecutive years, NASCAR has a right to remove the charter.
 
StandOnIt said:
If a Charter team finishes in the bottom three of the owner standings among all 36 Charter teams for three consecutive years, NASCAR has a right to remove the charter.
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And that's my real problem with leasing out a charter. The poor finish counts against the team that operates the charter, not the team that owns it. Leasing it out for a year just resets the clock when it comes back.
 
wi_racefan said:
At the end of the day does a closer field matter? If you're 36th and 30 seconds, 1 lap or 10 laps back you're still 36th. Having a close field and more competitive cars IMO are 2 completely different things.
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I dont even know what this means
 
Kiante said:
I understand, but remember all of the rolling chicanes that would cause incidents at times of the past?

Well, that's less of a chance for a backmarker to throw a wrench in races. Carl certainly has the freedom to do what is necessary for his team, however the RTA and the sanctioning body is telling owners like him to spend less time groaning and moaning on the internet and actually do something about not being able to afford a charter. He has the freedom to enter in the Truck and Xfinity Series as well and enter as many cars and trucks as he wants to.

I want to see him succeed, trust me I do, but until he gets a charter its pretty much set in stone.
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Pretty sure Carl enters the 66 & sometimes the 49 to fund the Xfinity team a bit.

I would not be a fan of teams getting pushed out, but like a poster said on here this week, it’s better to have 36 stable decent teams than 30 decent teams and 10 junkers.
 
AuzGrams said:
Pretty sure Carl enters the 66 & sometimes the 49 to fund the Xfinity team a bit.

I would not be a fan of teams getting pushed out, but like a poster said on here this week, it’s better to have 36 stable decent teams than 30 decent teams and 10 junkers.
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They will get pushed out if they own charters and continue to be bottom feeders, start and parks, whatever they are called sooner or later.
 
Spotter22 said:
I dont even know what this means
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You can do whatever you want to tighten up the field (reduce HP, aero, wave arounds, free pass....) and at the end of the race the gap between 1st and 36th is technically closer than it ever used to be. All I'm saying after all this is the guys that always run in the back of the back will still be in the back of the pack. You've made that guy that was 36th technically closer to the front in now that maybe he's only 30 seconds or one lap down now, but you haven't made him anymore more competitive than he was before. This guys is not all of a sudden going to be knocking down top 10's, he just doesn't doesn't have the speed and resources to run in the top 10.

If you used to be 1 second off the pace of the top 20 cars and through rule changes you're now only a couple 10ths off the pace of the top 20 you're still slower than them. Last time I checked you usually don't get in front of someone by driving slower than them.
 
wi_racefan said:
You can do whatever you want to tighten up the field (reduce HP, aero, wave arounds, free pass....) and at the end of the race the gap between 1st and 36th is technically closer than it ever used to be. All I'm saying after all this is the guys that always run in the back of the back will still be in the back of the pack. You've made that guy that was 36th technically closer to the front in now that maybe he's only 30 seconds or one lap down now, but you haven't made him anymore more competitive than he was before. This guys is not all of a sudden going to be knocking down top 10's, he just doesn't doesn't have the speed and resources to run in the top 10.

If you used to be 1 second off the pace of the top 20 cars and through rule changes you're now only a couple 10ths off the pace of the top 20 you're still slower than them. Last time I checked you usually don't get in front of someone by driving slower than them.
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I don't think that is the most important reason. I think keeping the costs down to where there aren't 8 cars racing instead of 36. Our economy is in the dumpster, fans can't come to the races, camp out, spend money, millions are lost there, at least the TV hasn't taken a dump, but fixed costs aren't going down, neither are taxes, on and on. Keeping the field alive is super important. The jackals and buzzards would never shut up if the field was smaller.
 
StandOnIt said:
I don't think that is the most important reason. I think keeping the costs down to where there aren't 8 cars racing instead of 36. Our economy is in the dumpster, fans can't come to the races, camp out, spend money, millions are lost there, at least the TV hasn't taken a dump, but fixed costs aren't going down, neither are taxes, on and on. Keeping the field alive is super important. The jackals and buzzards would never shut up if the field was smaller.
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I could live with 36. F1 only runs 20, Indy maybe 23, IMSA less than 30 for all but the Rolex. Does any series with a major US broadcast contract field even close to 36 cars at every race?
 
aunty dive said:
Tough pill to swallow.
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I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing, I have a problem when somebody seems to not understand the point I am making, as I go to great lengths to make myself clear, and then get crapped on for trying to remove ANY doubt what my point is. You seem to have raised THAT to an art form. Most of these topics are not as clear cut as your one sentence retorts would indicate.
 


This is essentially as I understood. The "show up" money is eliminated for non-chartered teams. They will only be paid the portion of the purse that is based on finishing position, contingencies, etc.

It makes sense.
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing, I have a problem when somebody seems to not understand the point I am making, as I go to great lengths to make myself clear, and then get crapped on for trying to remove ANY doubt what my point is. You seem to have raised THAT to an art form. Most of these topics are not as clear cut as your one sentence retorts would indicate.
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nah I usually stop paying attention after the point gets changed three times or more.
 
gnomesayin said:


This is essentially as I understood. The "show up" money is eliminated for non-chartered teams. They will only be paid the portion of the purse that is based on finishing position, contingencies, etc.

It makes sense.
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What I think it is designed to do is to make it really hard on shrewd operators who buy used 3rd or 4th hand junk, find a rent a driver, run scuffed/used tires etc. and make money doing it. Most fans think these guys optimistically will some day rise up out of the depths and become a top or much better team. When in fact most of these guys are intent on scamming the system and putting money in their pocket. They had start and parks and they got rid of start and parks moving to the charter system. So they have morphed into gaming the charter system. The charter system in these hard times in turn saw fit to pull in the horns to keep the rest of the herd as strong as possible.
 
Formerjackman said:
I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing, I have a problem when somebody seems to not understand the point I am making, as I go to great lengths to make myself clear, and then get crapped on for trying to remove ANY doubt what my point is. You seem to have raised THAT to an art form. Most of these topics are not as clear cut as your one sentence retorts would indicate.
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It never occurs to you that your fellow posters are able to read or comprehend your "points". I recommend raising your expectations for us in general and me in particular while lowering your grandiose opinion of yourself to a level more in touch with reality.

You posted an opinion. Nobody agrees. You'll have that.
 
aunty dive said:
It never occurs to you that your fellow posters are able to read or comprehend your "points". I recommend raising your expectations for us in general and me in particular while lowering your grandiose opinion of yourself to a level more in touch with reality.

You posted an opinion. Nobody agrees. You'll have that.
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Trust me, there is NOBODY on this forum that has a higher opinion of themselves than you. Perhaps if you would actually engage in a conversation instead of snarky remarks, insults and non sequiturs, we could get somewhere.
 
Formerjackman said:
Trust me, there is NOBODY on this forum that has a higher opinion of themselves than you. Perhaps if you would actually engage in a conversation instead of snarky remarks, insults and non sequiturs, we could get somewhere.
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You're unfamiliar with the Type A personality.

That seems odd ... you used to jack for racecar drivers.
 
I forgot ... you told us those guys were just happy to be part of the show.
 
I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to buy the world a home
And keep it company

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