Not a hate crime....

ChexOrWrex said:
All I can take from this in relation to this thread is that you believe that the possibility of a hate crime occuring in the sport today exceeds the actual supply.
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You get rid of the possibility, and you don't have the supply.
 
So I have been thinking about whether or not this belongs in a racing forum.....I think that it is a great thing that this has become part of this forum. This is the point of the message that Bubba is trying to get out there. Yes, this is on the topic of racing right now. Absolutely. While I using my passion for this sport as an escape, maybe the message right now is that you can't. Maybe this is such a profound moment in our history that we need to keep it in the forefront of our minds. Maybe this is THE biggest thing.
 
I want to apologize if anybody sees my posts as pontificating. This was not my intent, and if I am not clear in my intent, I become part of the problem. I feel passionately about this issue, and I am proud that much of the dialogue here has taken on a different tone--one that is more respectful than the norm IMO. This is awesome. Bailing on this thread is absolutely okay, but please don't bail on the dialogue. I believe that we are in a history making period of change. With that said, I have said enough publicly as I worry about the volume of my posts watering down a message that is imperative. So, I am open to dialogue, but out of respect for other posters, please DM me if you feel the need.

Enjoy the races this weekend! Go Toyota!
 
StandOnIt said:
Nascar blocked Weaver and the news outlet he worked for AutoweekUSA because he was misquoting Steve Phelps.
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I'll ask again. Where and how did NASCAR "block" Weaver and Autoweek? He and they have continued to report and be invited to NASCAR media teleconferences.
 
gnomesayin said:
I'll ask again. Where and how did NASCAR "block" Weaver and Autoweek? He and they have continued to report and be invited to NASCAR media teleconferences.
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Probably should have read the whole thing I suppose. "The whole thing, tweets disappearing, retractions etc, was quickly smoothed over"

1593106121726.png


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Either NASCAR was lying to Auto Week, or Mr. Matt Weaver from Auto Week was falsely attributing a position and denial claim to NASCAR.

After CTH presented those two scenarios to a very interested public. Mr. Weaver was forced to, well, let’s be kind, clarify his claim:

Sharing the exact quote because I misunderstood in real time what Steve Phelps said.
"I am not sure. I have no information on that."
Deleted the previous tweet to avoid confusion. pic.twitter.com/IhM1Rw5PzT
— Matt Weaver (@MattWeaverAW) June 23, 2020

1593106298282.png
 
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NASCAR did not "block" Matt Weaver and Autoweek, whatever that was supposed to mean. This is false. NASCAR continued to invite him to every media teleconference. No official NASCAR account or channel blocked his or Autoweek's access to anything. Steve Phelps didn't block him personally. Steve O'Donnell didn't block him. No other NASCAR official did.

Matt Weaver misconstrued and misattributed a quote from Steve Phelps. He acknowledged the error as his. That's your scandal. Weaver was subsequently challenged about this on Twitter, and apparently Weaver blocked a few of his agitators (individual Twitter users) there. That's his business with his Twitter account. If it were me, I'd advise him to give no appearance of ducking questions about a journalistic error.
 
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ChexOrWrex said:
And this ame knot was there last November. It’s not a targeted message of any kind. It’s a knot in a rope with a handle.
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There was one just like it in the Truck garage for JHN at Talladega back in 2017. It was captured in a video.
2017TruckGarage.jpg
 


Phelps is accountable and took responsibility for the error of the overly aggressive initial statements. I believe their reaction was completely genuine, but not well considered.

That is what a reasonable concerned observer would ask for.

Less reasonable types are still demanding that he "Resign!" because - - wait for it - - they're very offended. In other words, they are snowflakes demanding that he be canceled.
 
I think the reason as to why people were peeved at NASCAR is lost in the fray over the rope itself.

Before the FBI even got involved, NASCAR told the world that a noose was found in Bubba’s garage and that it was a “heinous act“, that they would “identify the person responsible and eliminate them from the sport” and that “there is no place for racism in NASCAR”.

This was the original statement as if NASCAR already knew many of the facts from the incident. This statement caused every major news outlet in the world to latch on like leeches. NASCAR held a beautiful unity ceremony. Bubba was in tears. Dozens of drivers and even Bubba himself made social media statements against it. Celebrities came out to support Bubba and the sport in their fight against such “heinous”acts.

They decided to speak out and do all of this before the investigation ended. When in reality, that knot was tied at minimum 7 months ago. It was being used as a garage door pull. The FBI told Bubba that it’s not a functioning noose. There was no targeted message. There was no crime. The leaders of the sport made an emotional over-reaction in relation to the facts that were available at the time. They made fools out of themselves and Bubba’s ethical reputation is on blast. It’s an embarrassing PR disaster for an international brand and for the only major sport currently operating. It was not a hoax, but an incredibly immature gaff.
 
gnomesayin said:


Phelps is accountable and took responsibility for the error of the overly aggressive initial statements. I believe their reaction was completely genuine, but not well considered.

That is what a reasonable concerned observer would ask for.

Less reasonable types are still demanding that he "Resign!" because - - wait for it - - they're very offended. In other words, they are snowflakes demanding that he be canceled.
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He said it himself that they acted off of emotion and he takes 100% responsibility for it all.

He's held himself in regard of his own actions and honestly to make a mistake in intensifying the situation by missing one word in saying that it was an "alleged" act would have changed the perception entirely. Phelps mentioned that during the conference and honestly what can you ask more from leadership? This is why I say Phelps has been fantastic, even in this blunder, it shouldn't change the perception of how he has been as president. Live and you learn, especially right now with this walk NASCAR is taking getting out of their comfort zone, growing pains are to be expected.

Just next time everyone needs to put their heads together and not use their emotions to speak for them. I'm ready for this weekend, this week has been a hell in a half.
 
gnomesayin said:

Less reasonable types are still demanding that he "Resign!" because - - wait for it - - they're very offended. In other words, they are snowflakes demanding that he be canceled.
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I don’t see it that way and I personally believe he should still resign and their PR teams needs professional development. Mr. Phelps is the president of a company that is arguably in the top 5 most popular sport in the nation, #1 currently. His actions have made his sport a global laughing stock and now has a tarnished reputation. Do you really think anyone is going to take his statements seriously in the future?

He may be ideal when it comes to dealing with the details of the sport itself but he is in no position to lead NASCAR, much less to be the voice of the company. If he cannot think about waiting to speak on something before an investigation is complete, I fear what his daily judgement calls are.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
I don’t see it that way and I personally believe he should still resign and their PR teams needs professional development. Mr. Phelps is the president of a company that is arguably in the top 5 most popular sport in the nation, #1 currently. His actions have made his sport a global laughing stock and now has a tarnished reputation. Do you really think anyone is going to take his statements seriously in the future?

He may be ideal when it comes to dealing with the details of the sport itself but he is in no position to lead NASCAR, much less to be the voice of the company.
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The worst take you can EVER have.

C'mon man, now that would be an overreaction. More training, I agree entirely. At the same time to fire or make the man resign? That's far too extreme, Chex.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
I think the reason as to why people were peeved at NASCAR is lost in the fray over the rope itself.

Before the FBI even got involved, NASCAR told the world that a noose was found in Bubba’s garage and that it was a “heinous act“, that they would “identify the person responsible and eliminate them from the sport” and that “there is no place for racism in NASCAR”.

This was the original statement as if NASCAR already knew many of the facts from the incident. This statement caused every major news outlet in the world to latch on like leeches. NASCAR held a beautiful unity ceremony. Bubba was in tears. Dozens of drivers and even Bubba himself made social media statements against it. Celebrities came out to support Bubba and the sport in their fight against such “heinous”acts.

They decided to speak out and do all of this before the investigation ended. When in reality, that knot was tied at minimum 7 months ago. It was being used as a garage door pull. The FBI told Bubba that it’s not a functioning noose. There was no targeted message. There was no crime. The leaders of the sport made an emotional over-reaction in relation to the facts that were available at the time. They made fools out of themselves and Bubba’s ethical reputation is on blast. It’s an embarrassing PR disaster for an international brand and for the only major sport currently operating. It was not a hoax, but an incredibly immature gaff.
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So if it was you, as long as we are supposing with perfect would a, could a, 20/20 hindsight, doing nothing after a noose was reported on Wallace's stall was the appropriate response..and you would have known without seeing the noose, what you call a knott is not a threatening symbol to an Africian American in the midst of the demonstrations going on.
 
Kiante said:
The worst take you can EVER have.

C'mon man, now that would be an overreaction. More training, I agree entirely. At the same time to fire or make the man resign? That's far too extreme, Chex.
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In no profession can such a monumental mistake be made on a global scale and the employee(s) responsible still keep their role. The buck stops at the top.
 
harkin said:
I hope everyone appreciates the irony that in this incident what was ****** up was way too many people thinking society was the problem when instead it was their own ability to believe the worst, run with it before all the evidence was collected and declare anyone who disagreed out-of-touch.

The most discouraging aspect of this is many of those same people seem completely unable (or unwilling) to own it and admit maybe things aren’t as bad as they think.
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Exactly. There hasn't been slavery in this country for over a 150 years now. We elected a black president for 2 terms in a row. There are so many successful black owned businesses and sports figures out there worth multi-million and even billions. It's just tiresome the internet shout downs and stupid accusations of racism one will get if they point these things out. It really ISN'T that bad and there's plenty of blacks who will say that. I read an article where Herschel Walker and his son said that. Bunch of race baiters out here stirring up trouble for no good.
 
StandOnIt said:
So if it was you, as long as we are supposing with perfect would a, could a, 20/20 hindsight, doing nothing after a noose was reported on Wallace's stall was the appropriate response..and you would have known without seeing the noose, what you call a knott is not a threatening symbol to an Africian American in the midst of the demonstrations going on.
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I have a post on this and it may be in the podium thread but nowhere have I said that NASCAR should have kept silent. That would have been an even worse move, IMO. I’ll see if I can pull my quote from the thread in the dark lagoon.

Edit:
ChexOrWrex said:
Don’t get me wrong, I applaud them as well for attempting to take the high road and in the end they certainly did. No matter what the investigation outcome would have been, their actions speak positive volumes.

At the same time, NASCAR is an international brand and I do expect a little better professionalism from them. They jumped the PR gun and it may discredit them in the future. Hindsight is 20/20 and Monday morning quarterbacks always get the win but I think a statement along the lines of “we found what appears to be an attempt at intimidation in Bubba Wallace’s garage, nobody has been harmed and there is no current threat, we have contacted local authorities who are conducting an investigation and we will comment when the investigation is completed. Meanwhile, let’s go racing” could have sufficed for the moment.
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StandOnIt said:
So if it was you, as long as we are supposing with perfect would a, could a, 20/20 hindsight, doing nothing after a noose was reported on Wallace's stall was the appropriate response..and you would have known without seeing the noose, what you call a knott is not a threatening symbol to an Africian American in the midst of the demonstrations going on.
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I think it's beacause of what's going on nascar needed to be very, very careful how they handled it, and unfortunately Phelps chose wrong and admits it, should he be canned? Maybe not but lord knows this was a huge mistake that a CEO of a major sport just can't make.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
I have a post on this and it may be in the podium thread but nowhere have I said that NASCAR should have kept silent. That would have been an even worse move, IMO. I’ll see if I can pull my quote from the thread in the dark lagoon.

Edit:
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You've said plenty and have been all over the place, you are apploading them and now your calling for their heads.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
I think the reason as to why people were peeved at NASCAR is lost in the fray over the rope itself.
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Different people are peeved for different reasons. I was strongly disappointed given the backlash it invited. It was a serious error in judgment, though not one I view as a sign of incompetence. Phelps is not ducking the responsibility.

Most of the people I have encountered who are angry at NASCAR have ulterior motives, and are invested in a culture war that they think they are losing.

Looking at the last corporate "face of the sport", and the current executive who is likely next in line, let's just say that I'll take my chances with Phelps for now. Ben Kennedy is the long term successor.
 
Dwayne said:
I think it's beacause of what's going on nascar needed to be very, very careful how they handled it, and unfortunately Phelps chose wrong and admits it, should he be canned? Maybe not but lord knows this was a huge mistake that a CEO of a major sport just can't make.
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he said he would do the same thing again. Here is the recent Quote...not anything about choosing wrong and admits it..pretty tired of people making up stuff and misquoting statements when they are as plain as day if a person gets off of their butt and looks.

 
gnomesayin said:
Different people are peeved for different reasons. I was strongly disappointed given the backlash it invited. It was a serious error in judgment, though not one I view as a sign of incompetence. Phelps is not ducking the responsibility.

Most of the people I have encountered who are angry at NASCAR have ulterior motives, and are invested in a culture war that they think they are losing.

Looking at the last corporate "face of the sport", and the current executive who is likely next in line, let's just say that I'll take my chances with Phelps for now. Ben Kennedy is the long term successor.
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It is my view that had Phelps and NASCAR been more professional about it instead of assuming the absolute worst and making a show, the backlash would not be so severe. If they had basically said “we found X, we dont know why or what, but the investigation will tell us” and then the news came out that everything was fine, the mistake would not be so egregious. People wouldn’t care enough and would move on to the next subject.
 
Revman said:
The last line is the last thing we need........
........I have no problem being judged by the content of my character AND the color of my skin. It is a part of who I am, and I won't ever apologize for that. Let's get to the place where the color of one's skin does not prohibit an exploration of one's character.
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I already answered aunty dive regarding my last line, either understand where I’m coming from on people making things worse or not.

As to judging by skin color, I would think that would be the opposite of ‘removing the possibility‘. I also think judging Bubba Watson by his driving ability and his character is the optimum and fairest method.

But I believe you, am praying for you and am not only honored to disagree with you, I encourage others to do likewise.
 
StandOnIt said:
he said he would do the same thing again. Here is the recent Quote...not anything about choosing wrong and admits it..pretty tired of people making up stuff and misquoting statements when they are as plain as day if a person gets off of their butt and looks.

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As stated he's taking responsibility for the "tone" and said he should have said "alleged" in his statement, there is no making anything up, he originally went on a tangent that gave the impression that someone actually put a noose in the 43 garage calling it a "heinous act" that's a h##l of a tone! So I'm not misquoting anything Phelps overreacted on a massive scale and is taking responsibility for it.
 
Dwayne said:
This was posted on twitter, maybe eating a little crow, but I still say it could have been handled better.
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I'm not saying it wasn't there I'm just saying after everything I have to wonder about the credibility of this picture. It took this long for it to surface and seriously the quality looks like it was taken with a flip phone.

edit: I just saw the local news outlet here actually had a clearer pic of it that you can actually make out the hauler behind it
 
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Dwayne said:
As stated he's taking responsibility for the "tone" and said he should have said "alleged" in his statement, there is no making anything up, he originally went on a tangent that gave the impression that someone actually put a noose in the 43 garage calling it a "heinous act" that's a h##l of a tone! So I'm not misquoting anything Phelps overreacted on a massive scale and is taking responsibility for it.
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Here chew on this from the transcript, so many seem to make up their own story to suit their agenda instead of putting themselves in the shoes of who are doing the decision making AFTER the fact.

I do want to make sure everyone understands that if given the evidence that we had was delivered to us on Saturday night or late Saturday afternoon, we would do the same thing. We would have done the same investigation. It was important for us to do. There is no place in our sport for this type of racism or hatred. It’s not part of who we are as a sport.
Additionally, the industry was very supportive. Not just the members of the 43, and I want to be clear about the 43 team. The 43 team had nothing to do with this. The evidence is very clear that the noose that was in that garage had been in the garage previously. The last race we had had there in October, that noose was present, and it was ?? the fact that it was not found until a member of the 43 team came there is something that is a fact. We had not been back to the garage. It was a quick one?day show. The crew member went back in there. He looked and saw the noose, brought it to the attention of his crew chief, who then went to the NASCAR series director Jay Fabian, and we launched this investigation.

www.jayski.com

NASCAR President Steve Phelps teleconference transcript – Jayski's NASCAR Silly Season Site

www.jayski.com www.jayski.com
 
wi_racefan said:
I'm not saying it wasn't there I'm just saying after everything I have to wonder about the credibility of this picture. It took this long for it to surface and seriously the quality looks like it was taken with a flip phone.
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This is not surprising, Denial isn't only a river in Egypt
 
ChexOrWrex said:
In no profession can such a monumental mistake be made on a global scale and the employee(s) responsible still keep their role. The buck stops at the top.
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You and I have butted heads on this whole topic, but I agree with you 100% on this part of it. The saddest part to me is what Phelps first reactions says about the very people he leads. He assumed the ABSOLUTE WORST of then without ANY EVIDENCE. If I were a NASCAR or ISC employee or a NASCAR team member, that would REALLY piss me off. While I'm at it, I find it completely absurd that tying a garge door pull into a noose can ONLY mean ONE THING, or that it even means ANYTHING at all. Nine out of ten some crew member did this and it never even occurred them that somebody could take it wrong. Up until just a few years ago, I wouldn't have even gave it a second thought, and I'll put my knowledge of US history up against anyone here. I grew up playing a game called Hang Man. What the hell did THAT mean?
 
wi_racefan said:
I'm not saying it wasn't there I'm just saying after everything I have to wonder about the credibility of this picture. It took this long for it to surface and seriously the quality looks like it was taken with a flip phone.
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Social media image uploaders compresses photos for data storage. Facebook has a clearer image but it’s still kinda fuzzy. I wouldn’t look too far into the photo posted.
 
Formerjackman said:
You and I have butted heads on this whole topic, but I agree with you 100% on this part of it. The saddest part to me is what Phelps first reactions says about the very people he leads. He assumed the ABSOLUTE WORST of then without ANY EVIDENCE. If I were a NASCAR or ISC employee or a NASCAR team member, that would REALLY piss me off. While I'm at it, I find it completely absurd that tying a garge door pull into a noose can ONLY mean ONE THING, or that it even means ANYTHING at all. Nine out of ten some crew member did this and it never even occurred them that somebody could take it wrong. Up until just a few years ago, I wouldn't have even gave it a second thought, and I'll put my knowledge of US history up against anyone here. I grew up playing a game called Hang Man. What the hell did THAT mean?
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without any evidence..what a joke
 
Here is a full sized picture taken from Jayski. I cropped the first one so it would post better. Note to the Einsteins, I guess they photoshopped the rainy background along with the noose should work for yet another denial. No evidence..SMH. If I had to guess ,it will be time for ya to change the subject to something else..round and round we go.

1593112046738.png
 
StandOnIt said:
Here chew on this from the transcript, so many seem to make up their own story to suit their agenda instead of putting themselves in the shoes of who are doing the decision making AFTER the fact.

I do want to make sure everyone understands that if given the evidence that we had was delivered to us on Saturday night or late Saturday afternoon, we would do the same thing. We would have done the same investigation. It was important for us to do. There is no place in our sport for this type of racism or hatred. It’s not part of who we are as a sport.
Additionally, the industry was very supportive. Not just the members of the 43, and I want to be clear about the 43 team. The 43 team had nothing to do with this. The evidence is very clear that the noose that was in that garage had been in the garage previously. The last race we had had there in October, that noose was present, and it was ?? the fact that it was not found until a member of the 43 team came there is something that is a fact. We had not been back to the garage. It was a quick one?day show. The crew member went back in there. He looked and saw the noose, brought it to the attention of his crew chief, who then went to the NASCAR series director Jay Fabian, and we launched this investigation.

www.jayski.com

NASCAR President Steve Phelps teleconference transcript – Jayski's NASCAR Silly Season Site

www.jayski.com www.jayski.com
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This is the one I read he says he should said "Alleged" I'm not making anything up to suit my agenda, it's fact.
www.nascar.com

NASCAR completes investigation into No. 43 garage stall at Talladega

NASCAR President Steve Phelps detailed findings from a complete investigation into the incident regarding the garage stall of No. 43 driver Bubba Wallace
www.nascar.com www.nascar.com
 
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Dwayne said:
This is the one I read he says he should said "Alleged" I'm not making anything up to suit my agenda, it's fact.
www.nascar.com

NASCAR completes investigation into No. 43 garage stall at Talladega

NASCAR President Steve Phelps detailed findings from a complete investigation into the incident regarding the garage stall of No. 43 driver Bubba Wallace
www.nascar.com www.nascar.com
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“Should we have toned that message down slightly?” Phelps said. “Maybe we should have. And I’ll take responsibility for that. I stand by the actions that we took and I think they were the right ones.
“Given the evidence that we had, we would do the same thing. We would investigate it the same way. If it comes to where we need to craft a statement differently, and I need to take a little emotion out of it, that’s something I’ll do.”
 
StandOnIt said:
without any evidence..what a joke
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Where was the evidence that this was done with ANY malicious intent, or that it was directed at ANY particular person? This was NOTHING but a classic case of ASSUMING something, with ZERO context to back it up and we all KNOW where assuming gets you. I ASSUMED NASCAR had a case. Boy do I feel foolish for putting even the slightest amount of trust in what they said. To hear Phelps tell the story, I thought somebody had hung it from the ceiling over the #43 car, or that it had a Bubba bobble head or some other Bubba SPECIFIC item in the loop of the rope. To qoute a movie thats name escapes me right now, "If that's all you got, you got nothing!"
 
I listened to much of the news conference on XM while between business calls. Seeing the photo (the 1 photo they elect to share) it fails to put the garage door pull rope into context. Clearly this is the same rope and position from the circulated photo seen previously of that stall from 2019. Observed in that perspective it is clearly used as a pull loop to grab or to loop around a hold. The "scary part" is represented by the loops around the top to secure the knot. Why would someone do that? To reinforce a heavier object. The person who did it must have done it for that reason, since it was previously done in the fall of 2019.

So clearly there was an emotional overreaction by the crew and Steve Phelps (he takes responsibility for that). My remaining concerns are that Phelps continues to use the term "NOOSE" over and over, even though a reporter asked him if it indeed functioned as a noose with a slip knot, and Phelps couldn't (or wouldn't) answer that. He did acknowledge that the events of recent weeks and the confederate flag mess had escalated emotions and likely contributed to the reaction of all. He also said NASCAR will be conducting sensitivity training for everyone to better manage the variety of society's ills (my phrase not his).

Phelps won't and shouldn't resign. He did own up to his failures but maintains the projection of "noose" even after the FBI concluded there was no intent and no malice on an item erected last year.

IMO, it's time to get focused on racing. I suspect they will welcome Pocono as a way to do that (Phelps, Bubba and everyone).
 
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