Roval Bonehead

Formerjackman said:
I wouldn't say I had a premonition, but I had firm grasp on the situation, what could happen and what was at stake. My heart stopped the second I saw him try to dive under the 78 coming off the banking. You HAD to know that wasn't going to work. Before I could even let out a breath, Jimmie was up in smoke. Had I been on the spotter's stand, I would have told Jimmie to be smart and remember the big picture. Moreover, Chad should have been telling him the same thing and reminding him how small of margin he was working with before they even took the last restart. Once they went green, it was pretty easy to see how amped up Jimmie was, which is EXACTLY the time to again remind your driver to keep focus. I would gladly defend that to Jimmie or any other driver. Also, the biggest reason why I think that it was a bad place to try to make a move is what ultimately bit Jimmie. If you blow the chicane, you get penalized, which is not only going to take away a win, but probably knock him out of the playoffs. Jimmie self-serving that penalty is what cost him, as he would have been about third or fourth if he could have just kept going. I actually question the rules here. If you crash in the chicane and lose race positions, should you STILL have to serve a penalty? Seems to me that would be penalty enough. I will continue to maintain that there simply wasn't ANY way he was going to get past Truex at that point without blowing the chicane. Truex held the preferred line, and Jimmie was going to have have to drive around him using the parts of the track nobody wanted in the first place, and likely covered in marbles. That's NOT a recipe for success.
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First, no it didn't, a little dramatic here. I think there are a few things to look at. I agree risk versus reward was not contemplated here, but these guys are competitors, it's not something that they do. If they were wired to give up and not take a shot when it presents itself (which it did), then they would never push the envelope. Jimmie went for it and missed, it was costly, but at the same time the door was open. JJ putting pressure on Truex actually worked because it caused Truex to blow the turn as well. JJ just didn't keep the car under control.

Ultimately the move should not have cost JJ for two reasons. One being that he never should have had to stop before the line. The rules are that you have to stop if you advance your position. In that moment he had not. He actually lost places. Case in point was Kyle Busch blowing turn 1 earlier. He was never penalized because he didn't advance his position. Also, JJ only was eliminated because of a series of events. His spin, followed by Hemric dumping Jeffrey, followed by Larson limping his car around the course some 45 seconds behind the pack and actually crossing the line after killing the fence twice while Jeffrey was cycling the engine.

That is a lot of different circumstances that were required to happen in order for the 48 to be eliminated. Considering those odds, it was actually a well calculated move. It was a move that could have been prevented by JJ just giving up essentially or trying to move Truex as you suggested, but nonetheless it took an extreme series of events for the 48 team to actually be eliminated.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
First, no it didn't, a little dramatic here. I think there are a few things to look at. I agree risk versus reward was not contemplated here, but these guys are competitors, it's not something that they do. If they were wired to give up and not take a shot when it presents itself (which it did), then they would never push the envelope. Jimmie went for it and missed, it was costly, but at the same time the door was open. JJ putting pressure on Truex actually worked because it caused Truex to blow the turn as well. JJ just didn't keep the car under control.

Ultimately the move should not have cost JJ for two reasons. One being that he never should have had to stop before the line. The rules are that you have to stop if you advance your position. In that moment he had not. He actually lost places. Case in point was Kyle Busch blowing turn 1 earlier. He was never penalized because he didn't advance his position. Also, JJ only was eliminated because of a series of events. His spin, followed by Hemric dumping Jeffrey, followed by Larson limping his car around the course some 45 seconds behind the pack and actually crossing the line after killing the fence twice while Jeffrey was cycling the engine.

That is a lot of different circumstances that were required to happen in order for the 48 to be eliminated. Considering those odds, it was actually a well calculated move. It was a move that could have been prevented by JJ just giving up essentially or trying to move Truex as you suggested, but nonetheless it took an extreme series of events for the 48 team to actually be eliminated.
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EXCEPT, you have to take into account that there was a good chance that with a banzai move, Jimmie quite possibly wouldn't even MAKE it to the finish line, negating all of the weird circumstances that made it a close call. It was only close because he was able to get going again and finish the race. I will also say that if drivers allowed themselves to be sucked into that kind of low percentage move all of the time, most of them would be out of a job. Also, the fact that I could care less about Truex one way or another aside, he got royally screwed in the deal. If that was some lesser driver that pulled off that dive bomb, you guys would be on their ass 24/7. That move was no less dumb than a couple of the moves Stenhouse has made in recent years.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Ultimately the move should not have cost JJ for two reasons. One being that he never should have had to stop before the line. The rules are that you have to stop if you advance your position. In that moment he had not.
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Not for this race ---
Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
The rule was if all four tires on painted area outside of racing surface on the chicanes then that is cutting. It didn’t matter if u spun. It matter of all four tires at one time we’re on rumble strips/grass.
Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
...After the race, Steve O'Donnell said that Johnson would have had a 30-second penalty if he had not stopped in the designated stop-and-go area.
 
Formerjackman said:
EXCEPT, you have to take into account that there was a good chance that with a banzai move, Jimmie quite possibly wouldn't even MAKE it to the finish line, negating all of the weird circumstances that made it a close call. It was only close because he was able to get going again and finish the race. I will also say that if drivers allowed themselves to be sucked into that kind of low percentage move all of the time, most of them would be out of a job. Also, the fact that I could care less about Truex one way or another aside, he got royally screwed in the deal. If that was some lesser driver that pulled off that dive bomb, you guys would be on their ass 24/7. That move was no less dumb than a couple of the moves Stenhouse has made in recent years.
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Low percentage move my ass, there is no such thing when the flag is in your windsheild. I dont know who you worked with but that wouldnt fly with my bunch I'll tell you that.
 
clarkfn2284 said:
Larson limping his car around the course some 45 seconds behind the pack and actually crossing the line after killing the fence twice while Jeffrey was cycling the engine.
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Kyle Larson and team never ever gave up and managed to get into the next round because of it, well done I say, well done! :punkrocke To me one of the best stories of the weekend.
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Not for this race ---
Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
The rule was if all four tires on painted area outside of racing surface on the chicanes then that is cutting. It didn’t matter if u spun. It matter of all four tires at one time we’re on rumble strips/grass.
Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
...After the race, Steve O'Donnell said that Johnson would have had a 30-second penalty if he had not stopped in the designated stop-and-go area.
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I don't agree with the rule, but it just buttresses my point that even IF Johnson could have pulled off that crazy move, he probably STILL would have ended up without the win OR advancing to the next round, because I contend there was NO WAY he was going to run side by side with Truex through the chicane and stay in bounds. The laws of physics don't give a damn how talented or how brave you are.
 
Spotter22 said:
Low percentage move my ass, there is no such thing when the flag is in your windsheild. I dont know who you worked with but that wouldnt fly with my bunch I'll tell you that.
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Do you want to be a hero, or do you want to be champion? Sometimes you just have to accept that some days you aren't holding the right cards. I would have been pretty OK with Johnson's move in about 33 of the 36 races in the season, even though it had almost no chance of success, but there are three instances where it becomes pure foolishness, and THIS was one of them. The 48 team was handed a gift they really didn't deserve by getting into the playoffs and then advancing to round two, and they barfed it up on their own shoes....
 
Formerjackman said:
Do you want to be a hero, or do you want to be champion? Sometimes you just have to accept that some days you aren't holding the right cards. I would have been pretty OK with Johnson's move in about 33 of the 36 races in the season, even though it had almost no chance of success, but there are three instances where it becomes pure foolishness, and THIS was one of them. The 48 team was handed a gift they really didn't deserve by getting into the playoffs and then advancing to round two, and they barfed it up on their own shoes....
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I couldnt disagree with you more and you can add Jeff Gordon and Chad Knaus to the list that wouldnt agree with you either
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Not for this race ---
Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
The rule was if all four tires on painted area outside of racing surface on the chicanes then that is cutting. It didn’t matter if u spun. It matter of all four tires at one time we’re on rumble strips/grass.
Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
...After the race, Steve O'Donnell said that Johnson would have had a 30-second penalty if he had not stopped in the designated stop-and-go area.
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They have to make an adjustment to these rules then. Earlier in the race KyBu cut turn 1 in an effort to avoid the cars stacking up and under the guise of "avoiding an accident" and "not advancing his position" he was not penalized. In JJ's situation it was on him for causing the ,mayhem, but he never advanced is position and one could argue that he was trying o avoid collecting Martin.
 
Spotter22 said:
I couldnt disagree with you more and you can add Jeff Gordon and Chad Knaus to the list that wouldnt agree with you either
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And just like you and me, they will be watching somebody else win the championship this year. If they're OK with that, then good for them, but if I was their boss or I was paying the bills, I sure as hell wouldn't be fine with it. For the first time in a YEAR, the 48 car was actually going to be somewhat relevant to what was going on out on the track, and now once again it is not. The great thing about Jimmie Johnson is that he is a 7 time champion. The bad thing about Jimmie Johnson is that when you're a 7 time champion, those close close to you won't tell you when you've lost your mind.
 
If you think taking a desperation shot to win career race #84 is more important than a chance to chase an 8th championship, then I can't help you. Win #84 means very little. An 8th championship is immortality. And it's not Monday morning quarterbacking because I was far more concerned with seeing the 9, 48 and 88 cars advance to the next round than I was with winning the race from the moment the race ended at Richmond. And yes, in the heat of the moment, Jimmie lost focus on the big picture. It happens to even the very best sometimes. Robert E. Lee may well be the greatest field commander this country has ever produced, but for three days in July 1863 his brain went on vacation. It happens.
 
Formerjackman said:
If you think taking a desperation shot to win career race #84 is more important than a chance to chase an 8th championship, then I can't help you. Win #84 means very little. An 8th championship is immortality. And it's not Monday morning quarterbacking because I was far more concerned with seeing the 9, 48 and 88 cars advance to the next round than I was with winning the race from the moment the race ended at Richmond. And yes, in the heat of the moment, Jimmie lost focus on the big picture. It happens to even the very best sometimes. Robert E. Lee may well be the greatest field commander this country has ever produced, but for three days in July 1863 his brain went on vacation. It happens.
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Well Ive been edited again which is completely ridiculous but on par for the moderator. JJ is a racecar driver signed on to win races and when the opportunity presents itself he goes for it, if you dont get that I cant help you.
 
Hands down the award goes to the 7(not 8) time Champ. That was the definition of bonehead. That team has won their championships by being cool and calculating. That bonehead move was neither.
 
Old 97 said:
Hands down the award goes to the 7(not 8) time Champ. That was the definition of bonehead. That team has won their championships by being cool and calculating. That bonehead move was neither.
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Well said. You could have stopped after your first sentence. It says it all.
 
Spotter22 said:
Well Ive been edited again which is completely ridiculous but on par for the moderator. JJ is a racecar driver signed on to win races and when the opportunity presents itself he goes for it, if you dont get that I cant help you.
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I would counter that he was signed to win championships. For the 48 team, race wins are just the icing on the cake. The Patriots don't pay Tom Brady because he he can go 12-4 in the regular season with ease, they pay him to go to Super Bowls. Anything less than a Super Bowl appearance for that team is a failure. Same goes for the 48 team.
 
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Formerjackman said:
I would counter that he was signed to win championships. For the 48 team, race wins are just the icing on the cake. The Patriots don't pay Tom Brady because he he can go 12-4 in the regular season with ease, they pay him to go to Super Bowls. Anything less than a Super Bowl appearance for that team is a failure. Same goes for the 48 team.
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You do realize that JJ going for the win didnt cost him going to the next round, right? You do realize it was a series of events the likes of which you've never see that materalized, something that you couldnt even run a sim on and predict that sidelined him? No wait, YOU predicted it though, you saw it coming in to the chicane, thats amazing. You gotta tell me how you knew Hemric was gonna spin the 96 and how the 96 would be passed by the 42 bascially running on 3 tires with the front end knocked off 45 seconds behind to win the tie breaker!! You are good dude!!
 
Spotter22 said:
You do realize that JJ going for the win didnt cost him going to the next round, right? You do realize it was a series of events the likes of which you've never see that materalized, something that you couldnt even run a sim on and predict that sidelined him? No wait, YOU predicted it though, you saw it coming in to the chicane, thats amazing. You gotta tell me how you knew Hemric was gonna spin the 96 and how the 96 would be passed by the 42 bascially running on 3 tires with the front end knocked off 45 seconds behind to win the tie breaker!! You are good dude!!
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I think a certain poster who is on record predicted that the race months before it started would be a disaster, but has filled 4 pages about the race afterwards. who'd a thunk it.
 
Spotter22 said:
You do realize that JJ going for the win didnt cost him going to the next round, right? You do realize it was a series of events the likes of which you've never see that materalized, something that you couldnt even run a sim on and predict that sidelined him? No wait, YOU predicted it though, you saw it coming in to the chicane, thats amazing. You gotta tell me how you knew Hemric was gonna spin the 96 and how the 96 would be passed by the 42 bascially running on 3 tires with the front end knocked off 45 seconds behind to win the tie breaker!! You are good dude!!
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No, not at all. I was afraid he was going to crash and end up the last car on the lead lap or blow the chicane, get a penalty and be the last car on the lead lap. The other stuff that happened is only relevant because after spinning out, Jimmie was able to roll across the finish line. Losing a three way tiebreaker never entered my mind. Let my ask you this question. You admire Alan Kulwicki a lot. What IF, at the 1992 Atlanta race, Alan, having just locked up the bonus points for laps lead and only has to finish second to Bill Elliott to win the championship, decides to try to go up and pass Elliott for the win and knocks down the fence in the process. Would you be OK with THAT?
 
Formerjackman said:
No, not at all. I was afraid he was going to crash and end up the last car on the lead lap or blow the chicane, get a penalty and be the last car on the lead lap. The other stuff that happened is only relevant because after spinning out, Jimmie was able to roll across the finish line. Losing a three way tiebreaker never entered my mind. Let my ask you this question. You admire Alan Kulwicki a lot. What IF, at the 1992 Atlanta race, Alan, having just locked up the bonus points for laps lead and only has to finish second to Bill Elliott to win the championship, decides to try to go up and pass Elliott for the win and knocks down the fence in the process. Would you be OK with THAT?
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If he was able to run down Elliott not only would I be ok with him trying to win I would expect him to try to win.
 
So you're saying it's fine to risk throwing away a championship that is in the bag to try to win a race?
 
Spotter22 said:
Listen , you arent going to play mind games with me, I'm telling you straight up JJ did the right thing no matter what you think.
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I'm not playing mind games, I'm just trying to figure out where you stand when the rubber meets the road. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one and let it be because neither you or Jimmie Johnson or anyone else is ever going to convince me that under those circumstances with what he had to work with that it was the right thing to do. This was throwing into triple coverage on 4th and 8 when you could have just kicked a field goal and moved on to next week.
 
Formerjackman said:
I'm not playing mind games, I'm just trying to figure out where you stand when the rubber meets the road. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one and let it be because neither you or Jimmie Johnson or anyone else is ever going to convince me that under those circumstances with what he had to work with that it was the right thing to do. This was throwing into triple coverage on 4th and 8 when you could have just kicked a field goal and moved on to next week.
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Well, thats why he's a winner and in the Cup Series.
 
Well, he certainly didn't win seven championships by making decisions like that.
 
Jimmie Johnson: ‘My desire to win has never been stronger’
“I’ve thought about it a lot and what I would do differently,” he said. “I would just like to learn from my mistakes. I do feel bad for my team and the fact that we didn’t advance and how much we put into that, but countless text messages, phone calls, walking though the shop, they’ve all supported my decision to race for the win.

https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/10/05/jimmie-johnson-my-desire-to-win-has-never-been-stronger/
 
Formerjackman said:
No, not at all. I was afraid he was going to crash and end up the last car on the lead lap or blow the chicane, get a penalty and be the last car on the lead lap. The other stuff that happened is only relevant because after spinning out, Jimmie was able to roll across the finish line. Losing a three way tiebreaker never entered my mind. Let my ask you this question. You admire Alan Kulwicki a lot. What IF, at the 1992 Atlanta race, Alan, having just locked up the bonus points for laps lead and only has to finish second to Bill Elliott to win the championship, decides to try to go up and pass Elliott for the win and knocks down the fence in the process. Would you be OK with THAT?
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Not the same. In your scenario, Kulwicki would have tossed a Championship away, in this scenario JJ threw away an opportunity to advance. There are a ton of variables in JJ's situation that still have to occur as well. You have a guy who knows that his team has struggled to be a contender and is staring a shot at a win in the face. The I don't believe that the 48 team believes they were a real threat, however I also do not believe that they stopped believing in the "chance." That being said I am almost positive that JJ didn't think about how far back the 42 was or where exactly he was in the points he decided to make his move. I am also just as positive that they went over the situation and the scenario of where they were and how barring the 48 not finishing the race they would practically be in.

With all of this information I don't believe anyone would just settle in knowing that a set of circumstances like what occurred would have to occur in order for the end result be what it was. It is actually a very low probability that all of what happened would have actually happened. So the risk was not a huge risk. However, it has detrimental results if the worst were to happen. It's like bungee jumping for lack of a better analogy. You know that there is an inherent risk and danger to it, but you also know that people do it every day and nothing happens. So when you want to do something or you are chasing that rush like a bungee jumper would be (I assume) you take that into account. Sometimes the bungee snaps.

I know the analogy is terrible, but it just shows that the overall risk was not as significant as it seems after the fact. It's easy for us to sit and Monday morning quarterback the move when we have zero skin in the game and we have zero people relying on our thought process in the situation. All I know is that I have competed in sports my whole life and now I coach. My competitive drive has never allowed me to pull up or settle. As a coach I will take a team full of people willing to risk everything for one moment of glory. Those moments are not guaranteed and you never know when they will be back, so go for it.
 
I would have liked to see Truex drive through the grass after JJ hit him. It looked like Truex tried to stay on the pavement, maybe to avoid a penalty, but that's why he then got spun. I think Nascar would have had a hard time penalizing him though, since it would be hard to say he would have been able to stay on track.

There seemed to be a lot of confusion by the teams and commentators.
 
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