Silly Season 2023

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
A competitive car wouldn't change Pocono 2017. Jimmie didn't have a singular good run on an oval after that wreck.

Off-topic-ish.... In 2016 Jr. retired due to concussions. Carl retired unexpectedly after his hard crash at Homestead (remember too, his wife is a brain surgeon). Jimmie had his wreck in 2017 and has been a shadow ever since. NASCAR has been running cars 10-15mph slower since those days and you don't see 200mph ANYWHERE on the circuit even the plate tracks. I think NASCAR quietly has a CTE and brain impact problem, JMO.

I would certainly LIKE to think that if Jimmie was or even suspected he was suffering any lingering effects from his Pococno crash, he wouldn't be out running 230 MPH laps at Indy, when he doesn't HAVE to be doing that.
 

Jorge De Guzman

2017, 2021 Pick Em Champion 2018 Bold Predictor
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Messages
14,213
Points
883
A competitive car wouldn't change Pocono 2017. Jimmie didn't have a singular good run on an oval after that wreck.

Off-topic-ish.... In 2016 Jr. retired due to concussions. Carl retired unexpectedly after his hard crash at Homestead (remember too, his wife is a brain surgeon). Jimmie had his wreck in 2017 and has been a shadow ever since. NASCAR has been running cars 10-15mph slower since those days and you don't see 200mph ANYWHERE on the circuit even the plate tracks. I think NASCAR quietly has a CTE and brain impact problem, JMO.
I was going to disagree but this post really made me pause and think for a bit. I really can’t find any reason to disagree and I never thought of it in this context. Well done.
 

wi_racefan

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
3,796
Points
423
I'll just offer my worthless opinion, all while knowing it's probably not as simple as I'm going to make it sound.

But yes, take some away from the tracks and give it to the teams. Teams are investing in the series, I'm not sure how many tracks are. Also, from what I've either read or heard over the years, is that tracks could literally not sell 1 ticket and still make a profit thanks to the massive TV $$ that is there. Take some money away from the trackss and give it to the teams.

My concern though, is I don't know how much $$ NASCAR will get from the next TV contract.
This discussion can always go in circles all I'm saying is before teams start demanding more money in order to be profitable maybe they need to look at why they can't turn a profit already when bringing in millions in sponsorship.

Do they really need a multimillion dollar pit crew training facility? With standard bodies do all teams need to have body scanners? Rumor is jack development is the hot thing right now. Do they need to spend a few hundred thousand developing a new jack? Do they really need to have a whole army of engineers on staff? All it's ever been with teams is an arms race that drives spending up. Spending which is done by their choice and not the sanctioning body. If you could get all team owners to agree to a salary cap they'd all make a profit, but of course they'll never happen because since the day owners started talking about cutting costs all they really wanted to do is keep their competitors from spending more than they were willing to spend. The argument can easily be made that if all teams were limited to a cap (say 8 or 10 mil) competition would not suffer, likely it would be better.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
It makes me think about Dick Trickles suicide. From the Wikipedia article

Trickle's family later released a statement which in part said: "He had been suffering for some time with severe chronic pain, had seen many doctors, none of which could find the source of his pain. His family as well as all those who knew him find his death very hard to accept, and though we will hurt from losing him for some time, he’s no longer suffering and we take comfort knowing he’s with his very special angel."
Trickle's pain issue was in his torso though. COULD it be related to some type of brain damage? I suppose that is possible, but I haven't seen it even suggested anywhere.
I'll just offer my worthless opinion, all while knowing it's probably not as simple as I'm going to make it sound.

But yes, take some away from the tracks and give it to the teams. Teams are investing in the series, I'm not sure how many tracks are. Also, from what I've either read or heard over the years, is that tracks could literally not sell 1 ticket and still make a profit thanks to the massive TV $$ that is there. Take some money away from the trackss and give it to the teams.

My concern though, is I don't know how much $$ NASCAR will get from the next TV contract.
Here's just ONE of the things that complicates the issue. Brett Griffin, who's real job involves such things has been adamant that attendance at the tracks needs to improve, and the facilities need to improve because it effects the perception of sponsors and potential sponsors when they bring them to the track, and that IS important. The problem comes when you have TV networks doing solely what is in THEIR best interest to the detriment of at track attendance. This is the kind of thing I mean when I talk about people having to do the RIGHT thing, not just what suits them best if this sport is going to move forward and return to its former glory. EVERYBODY needs to get in a room, and EVERYBODY is going to have to be willing to give a little or basically nothing changes.

I too agreed with almost everything Hamlin said in the interviews, (color me surprised) except for one thing. As long as you have owners like Hendrick and Penske and others that don't NEED to make a profit or even break even with their racing endeavors, then teams that MUST operate at a profit or WANT to like he does are going to be at a severe disadvantage, regardless of what the TV money is, the race purse is, the charter money is, or anything else. No matter how much revenue you generate from the sport itself, as long as others are willing to spend MORE, you are still stuck where you are, and I don't know of an answer to that. That is one of my biggest gripes about the RTA. Basically it just puts organized pressure on NASCAR to fix by rule the problems these same owners created in the first place. "Save us from ourselves!"

Hamlin also basically echoed what I have been saying that having a different sponsor on the car every week is NOT good for the sport overall, but, until you can prove to offer enough enough value, almost nobody is going to write a full year check. He also said (as did I) that if members of his team can be suspended for making mistakes, why can't NASCAR officials? Scott Miller should get two weeks off just for his nonsensical explanation for why Blaney was allowed to race with an improperly installed window net.
 

aunty dive

Team Owner
Contributor
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
32,374
Points
883
Why does anyone care how much money other people are spending to go racing?

Obviously, it isn’t a limiting factor. If it was, Trackhouse, 23X1 et al wouldn’t exist.
 

DIDIT

Old School Fan
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,791
Points
593
Location
Port Salerno, FL
I'll just offer my worthless opinion, all while knowing it's probably not as simple as I'm going to make it sound.

But yes, take some away from the tracks and give it to the teams. Teams are investing in the series, I'm not sure how many tracks are. Also, from what I've either read or heard over the years, is that tracks could literally not sell 1 ticket and still make a profit thanks to the massive TV $$ that is there. Take some money away from the trackss and give it to the teams.

My concern though, is I don't know how much $$ NASCAR will get from the next TV contract.
I am curious, why do you think more money should go to the teams? I am not sure Penske, JGR, Hendrick really need more money. Look at how they spend it now. As for the tracks, many tracks have made significant upgrades over the years and others could still enhance the whole racing experience.I If there is "extra" money floating around to be doled up, I vote that it either goes to the tracks or the Xfinity or Truck series. Most of those teams could use some extra dollars.
 

Charlie Spencer

Road courses and short tracks.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
29,988
Points
1,033
Location
Lexington, SC
He also said (as did I) that if members of his team can be suspended for making mistakes, why can't NASCAR officials?
Suspending a crew member is usually done either because of an unsafe act or because a competitive advantage was found. The penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent.

What's the value in suspending officials? Wouldn't that hamper race operations?
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
Suspending a crew member is usually done either because of an unsafe act or because a competitive advantage was found. The penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent.

What's the value in suspending officials? Wouldn't that hamper race operations?
It's an incentive to do a better job going forward. Does suspending the A pit crew and replacing them with people who aren't on the A team any different?
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
Why does anyone care how much money other people are spending to go racing?

Obviously, it isn’t a limiting factor. If it was, Trackhouse, 23X1 et al wouldn’t exist.
It DOESN'T to me, I am kind of the mentality of this is the Cup Series, and you either put your big boy pants on and get to work or go home. That's why I'm not a fan of charters and guaranteed spots in the field. It IS naive though to pretend it doesn't cause some ancillary problems. I think what you MAY be seeing now though is some of the new generation owners who are not willing to follow the old business model. It seems quite apparent that Michael Jordon looks at his investment racing as just that, an investment, and he expects a return on his money. Is that realistic? I would have always said no in the past, but as they keep telling me, times they are a changing.
 

gone

Team Owner
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
686
Points
253
Costs of racing, and how some teams have more money than others or how some teams spend their money, has been a continual complaint for as long as I've been around racing (since the 1960s). And it's at all levels - not just NASCAR. Recently I was looking at some of my old Stock Car Racing magazines from the mid-1970s and found essentially the same complaints and problems people have today - only the names have changed (mostly). Some people were sure that NASCAR was headed to ruin due to disgruntled older fans, a faltering economy, a few big budget teams squashing the competition, involvement (pro and con) of auto manufacturers, and declining car counts. Thing is, although the issues and complaining haven't gone away NASCAR racing has soldiered on...

Fact: money can buy speed and money can trump effort and experience and sometimes even the rules. It is frustrating but it's not going away. Try to "save teams money" with rule changes and the teams just redirect their money into defeating those rules. If they divert money from TV deals to racers (for example), the racers will just add that money to what they're already spending. They will use it to increase their costs - they won't save it or use it to pay down their current debts. And while they spend their windfalls they will still cry about their costs.

It is possible for a relatively low-budget team to beat high-budget teams. Not easy, and it may also require some luck, but it does happen. But that's the way it is at the top ranks of any endeavor. Shouldn't bite off more than you can chew and then complain that you couldn't handle it. Put your head down and work even harder, or go find someplace else to play.

Yeah, there is some merit to the argument that because the racers are taking the biggest risks they should also reap most of the rewards. Problem is, racers often only focus upon their own situations and don't pay much attention to or don't understand the risks and efforts by the supporting efforts (sanctioning body, tracks, promotion, etc.). At the same time it is well known how much money some of the complainers already have, making it hard for the average Joe to feel much sympathy for them.

Go ahead and try to tweak the old business model into a "new" business model... although old models usually can be improved there is good reason why they have worked for so long. But don't try to buffalo me into believing that redistributing more money to racers is going to reduce their costs and bring more new teams to the sport - that redistributed money will just add to the money they're already spending, and create an even higher entry point for newcomers.
 

donthaveanickname

Viva Polonia
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
10,836
Points
883
Location
Zwickau, Saxony (Germany)
A competitive car wouldn't change Pocono 2017. Jimmie didn't have a singular good run on an oval after that wreck.

Off-topic-ish.... In 2016 Jr. retired due to concussions. Carl retired unexpectedly after his hard crash at Homestead (remember too, his wife is a brain surgeon). Jimmie had his wreck in 2017 and has been a shadow ever since. NASCAR has been running cars 10-15mph slower since those days and you don't see 200mph ANYWHERE on the circuit even the plate tracks. I think NASCAR quietly has a CTE and brain impact problem, JMO.
I never really thought JJ's Pocono accident was a reason for his decline but looking back it certainly could be possible. Jimmie was not the same after that crash.
However, I can't recall anyone in NASCAR saying that safety concerns were a part of why the 550 package was introduced. Mid-corner speeds increased a lot due to the additional downforce.
 

DIDIT

Old School Fan
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,791
Points
593
Location
Port Salerno, FL
It DOESN'T to me, I am kind of the mentality of this is the Cup Series, and you either put your big boy pants on and get to work or go home. That's why I'm not a fan of charters and guaranteed spots in the field. It IS naive though to pretend it doesn't cause some ancillary problems. I think what you MAY be seeing now though is some of the new generation owners who are not willing to follow the old business model. It seems quite apparent that Michael Jordon looks at his investment racing as just that, an investment, and he expects a return on his money. Is that realistic? I would have always said no in the past, but as they keep telling me, times they are a changing.
Do you think JGR, Penske and Hendrick are losing money? I don't believe it for a second. For example, Forbes shows JGR net worth of $230 million, revenue of $135 million, with a profit of $5 million for 2020, which was during the peak of the virus.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
Costs of racing, and how some teams have more money than others or how some teams spend their money, has been a continual complaint for as long as I've been around racing (since the 1960s). And it's at all levels - not just NASCAR. Recently I was looking at some of my old Stock Car Racing magazines from the mid-1970s and found essentially the same complaints and problems people have today - only the names have changed (mostly). Some people were sure that NASCAR was headed to ruin due to disgruntled older fans, a faltering economy, a few big budget teams squashing the competition, involvement (pro and con) of auto manufacturers, and declining car counts. Thing is, although the issues and complaining haven't gone away NASCAR racing has soldiered on...

Fact: money can buy speed and money can trump effort and experience and sometimes even the rules. It is frustrating but it's not going away. Try to "save teams money" with rule changes and the teams just redirect their money into defeating those rules. If they divert money from TV deals to racers (for example), the racers will just add that money to what they're already spending. They will use it to increase their costs - they won't save it or use it to pay down their current debts. And while they spend their windfalls they will still cry about their costs.

It is possible for a relatively low-budget team to beat high-budget teams. Not easy, and it may also require some luck, but it does happen. But that's the way it is at the top ranks of any endeavor. Shouldn't bite off more than you can chew and then complain that you couldn't handle it. Put your head down and work even harder, or go find someplace else to play.

Yeah, there is some merit to the argument that because the racers are taking the biggest risks they should also reap most of the rewards. Problem is, racers often only focus upon their own situations and don't pay much attention to or don't understand the risks and efforts by the supporting efforts (sanctioning body, tracks, promotion, etc.). At the same time it is well known how much money some of the complainers already have, making it hard for the average Joe to feel much sympathy for them.

Go ahead and try to tweak the old business model into a "new" business model... although old models usually can be improved there is good reason why they have worked for so long. But don't try to buffalo me into believing that redistributing more money to racers is going to reduce their costs and bring more new teams to the sport - that redistributed money will just add to the money they're already spending, and create an even higher entry point for newcomers.

I have said from the start that one of the REAL motives about the charter system was freeze out the outsiders and make it more of a private club where they can control and divvy up EVERYTHING among themselves just as the stick and ball sports do, that the "equity" argument was mostly a talking point for 90% of the owners, and if you read between the lines, Hamlin nearly admitted as much. The chartered owners really don't want ANYBODY coming in a even stealing two cents of the precious pie. I think sooner than later you will see X number of chartered cars, and they will be the ONLY ones competing, and Hamlin didn't hide his desire to raise the price of entry for any new prospective owners and drive up the value of his own charters. Good deal as a businessman, BUT, is it a good deal for a sport?
 

Speedbowl14

Ryan Preece and short tracks
Joined
May 18, 2014
Messages
2,728
Points
443
Location
SLC, Utah
I never really thought JJ's Pocono accident was a reason for his decline but looking back it certainly could be possible. Jimmie was not the same after that crash.
However, I can't recall anyone in NASCAR saying that safety concerns were a part of why the 550 package was introduced. Mid-corner speeds increased a lot due to the additional downforce.

I don't think it would be said publicly. The NFL has been in a ****storm for 5+ years over CTE's.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
Do you think JGR, Penske and Hendrick are losing money? I don't believe it for a second. For example, Forbes shows JGR net worth of $230 million, revenue of $135 million, with a profit of $5 million for 2020, which was during the peak of the virus.
I would suggest Forbes stick to things they know about, and racing isn't one of them. I wouldn't put one ounce of trust in ANY of these publicly floated numbers. You can make the books say anything you want to. Do some teams make a profit from time to time? I'm sure some do, when it suits their purposes. Richard Childress clearly got wealthy being a car owner, but he had the greatest money machine in the history of American motorsports for a driver too. I remember a quote from Harry Ranier in Winston Cup Scene back in the day about his racing team needing to show a profit every seven years. You can SAY JGR is worth 230 million, and it may well BE on the books, but sell it tomorrow and see how much money you get for it, four charters or not. You can BUY assets, but you only rent people, and people have ALWAYS been a race team's greatest asset.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
62,435
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Do you think JGR, Penske and Hendrick are losing money? I don't believe it for a second. For example, Forbes shows JGR net worth of $230 million, revenue of $135 million, with a profit of $5 million for 2020, which was during the peak of the virus.
You have to remember the jackman is expert on all things. Financial experts with knowledge of net worth mean nothing.
 

Formerjackman

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 15, 2017
Messages
4,977
Points
593
You have to remember the jackman is expert on all things. Financial experts with knowledge of net worth mean nothing.
Do you want to make a substantive argument about anything I said, or just be a dick about it? For the record, I don't put much stock in ANY of these richest driver, richest celebrity, yada yada yada. Far too many variables that you would be lucky if the IRS knew about, let alone some magazine. The actually net worth of individuals and privately held companies is always a educated guess at best.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
62,435
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
Do you want to make a substantive argument about anything I said, or just be a dick about it? For the record, I don't put much stock in ANY of these richest driver, richest celebrity, yada yada yada. Far too many variables that you would be lucky if the IRS knew about, let alone some magazine. The actually net worth of individuals and privately held companies is always a educated guess at best.
I just did. I guess I could have called you an idiot for thinking you know more about financial matters than Forbes but I thought eh, what's the use let the blowhard talk.
 

LJ7201

#80
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
941
Points
323
Location
Ohio
I thought it was common knowledge that on some given years the big teams lose money. Tried to find where I read it but IIRC the 48 team operated in the red for several seasons. With the ebbs and flows of the sport there's no way some owners haven't "lost" money. Even the juggernaut teams. Now over a 5-10 year stretch is a different story.

Also Forbes estimates are certainly better than whatever guesses I could think of but they probably have a huge margin of error for something like a Cup team.

 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
62,435
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
I thought it was common knowledge that on some given years the big teams lose money. Tried to find where I read it but IIRC the 48 team operated in the red for several seasons. With the ebbs and flows of the sport there's no way some owners haven't "lost" money. Even the juggernaut teams. Now over a 5-10 year stretch is a different story.

Also Forbes estimates are certainly better than whatever guesses I could think of but they probably have a huge margin of error for something like a Cup team.

His earnings dropped 50% he says but he still made over 8 million dollars in 2015 which wasn't a good year for racing. I think Danica and Junior were making around 12 mil during that time. I understand what Hamlin is saying, Charter buys, and paying for equipment that they don't have. It's not supposed to be cheap to race in the Cup series.
 

DIDIT

Old School Fan
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,791
Points
593
Location
Port Salerno, FL
I would suggest Forbes stick to things they know about, and racing isn't one of them. I wouldn't put one ounce of trust in ANY of these publicly floated numbers. You can make the books say anything you want to. Do some teams make a profit from time to time? I'm sure some do, when it suits their purposes. Richard Childress clearly got wealthy being a car owner, but he had the greatest money machine in the history of American motorsports for a driver too. I remember a quote from Harry Ranier in Winston Cup Scene back in the day about his racing team needing to show a profit every seven years. You can SAY JGR is worth 230 million, and it may well BE on the books, but sell it tomorrow and see how much money you get for it, four charters or not. You can BUY assets, but you only rent people, and people have ALWAYS been a race team's greatest asset.
If you want to believe these mega race teams are losing money, then go right ahead. I guess you think these owners/corporations/companies are just racing as a hobby. Here is something that might be earth shattering to you, even Jennifer Jo Cobb made money racing trucks. I know she is one of your favorites.
 

LewTheShoe

Seeking Skill-based Meritocracy... More HP Less DF
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,572
Points
593
There was a time, four or five years ago, when I would have been hot-and-heavy in this recurring debate about the business of stock car racing. Not any more. Posting business content here just never seems to sway any of the entrenched opinions... or even enrich the discussion... among the financial titans of R-F, no matter how sound the data or financial logic. I've gradually lost my appetite for even reading it, much less spending time to craft written arguments.

However, I do marvel at the irony of the member applauding Hamlin's opinions (in that fine profile written by Adam Stern) while at the same time trashing the efforts of the RTA... because Hambone and the RTA are 100% aligned and working for the exact same thing. LMAO.
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
62,435
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
There was a time, four or five years ago, when I would have been hot-and-heavy in this recurring debate about the business of stock car racing. Not any more. Posting business content here just never seems to sway any of the entrenched opinions... or even enrich the discussion... among the financial titans of R-F, no matter how sound the data or financial logic. I've gradually lost my appetite for even reading it, much less spending time to craft written arguments.

However, I do marvel at the irony of the member applauding Hamlin's opinions (in that fine profile written by Adam Stern) while at the same time trashing the efforts of the RTA... because Hambone and the RTA are 100% aligned and working for the exact same thing. LMAO.
Should we call Hamlin Maverick? Or greenhorn I wonder.
 

LJ7201

#80
Joined
Aug 31, 2017
Messages
941
Points
323
Location
Ohio
Official clarification of my stances: I trust Forbes more than FJM but also think Cup teams make less money than DIDIT does. My likes do not always = full endorsements of posts.

Best regards,
LJ7201 team
 

DIDIT

Old School Fan
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,791
Points
593
Location
Port Salerno, FL
Official clarification of my stances: I trust Forbes more than FJM but also think Cup teams make less money than DIDIT does. My likes do not always = full endorsements of posts.

Best regards,
LJ7201 team
I will guarantee you no Cup teams make less money than me! ;)
 

Team Penske

Team Owner
Joined
Jan 16, 2015
Messages
7,463
Points
643
Suspending a crew member is usually done either because of an unsafe act or because a competitive advantage was found. The penalty is supposed to act as a deterrent.

What's the value in suspending officials? Wouldn't that hamper race operations?
when people are on salary, suspensions are meaningless, demotions do work though. It seems to me that all Nascar does is promote people.
 

LewTheShoe

Seeking Skill-based Meritocracy... More HP Less DF
Joined
Apr 21, 2016
Messages
4,572
Points
593
It's a strange situation. Truex has been saying for months that he is trying to decide if he wants to continue racing. My belief is, if a veteran star driver with a long career says he is pondering whether he wants to continue, then he is already gone. When the fire burns down to a mere smolder, it's time to stop.

However, maybe the real situation is that the fire still burns brightly, but Gibbs isn't offering a contract extension, or is offering a steep cut in pay. Maybe Gibbs is offering a smaller financial package for one year only - to make room for his grandson after one more year - and Martin just feels totally disrespected? No evidence, just a thought.

In either event, MTJ has had a good long run,,, performing at an elite level every year since 2015, won a lot of races, won a championship, very impactful charity work, and a well-earned reputation as a clean racer in an era when dirty driving is becoming commonplace.

I hope Martin, and his classy lady Sherry Pollex, find the right answer and find peace.
 

Charlie Spencer

Road courses and short tracks.
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
29,988
Points
1,033
Location
Lexington, SC
Maybe Gibbs is offering a smaller financial package for one year only - to make room for his grandson after one more year - and Martin just feels totally disrespected?
I thought the collective brain trust here has decided that's how JGR is handling Kyle.
 

wi_racefan

Team Owner
Joined
Aug 4, 2017
Messages
3,796
Points
423
JGR is in a tough situation with 2 drivers in the same season. You have to look at it realistically in that JGR will be willing to give more to Kyle even if that comes at the expense of MTJ.

My only question is if MTJ doesn't come back who's in the 19 next season? They already said Ty is doing another season in Xfinity

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

StandOnIt

Farm Truck
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
62,435
Points
883
Location
yoooklahoma
JGR is in a tough situation with 2 drivers in the same season. You have to look at it realistically in that JGR will be willing to give more to Kyle even if that comes at the expense of MTJ.

My only question is if MTJ doesn't come back who's in the 19 next season? They already said Ty is doing another season in Xfinity

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
What they say and what they do if the circumstances arrive are two different things
 
Top Bottom