Team Orders?

There were no team orders to let Denny win. That's a fact. Kyle's only chance to win was to put two Toyotas in front of the 22. Otherwise he was probably looking at no better than p3 and a really good chance a Ford in victory lane. If Kyle could have taken Denny (cleanly) after the restart, he absolutely, positively would have. And JGR would have been just as happy.
 
Allenbaba said:
There were no team orders to let Denny win. That's a fact. Kyle's only chance to win was to put two Toyotas in front of the 22. Otherwise he was probably looking at no better than p3 and a really good chance a Ford in victory lane. If Kyle could have taken Denny (cleanly) after the restart, he absolutely, positively would have. And JGR would have been just as happy.
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No. KyBu let the cat out of the bag when he stated that the goal was to get JGR to VL. I appreciate his honesty, including letting Hamlin on The G-W-C restart to have the Lead while KyBu took a subordinate position.
 
This might click for some of them :rolleyes:. The Gibbs cars were playing defense, They lined up tight side by side to block Logano from making an end around the strong side for the win.
 
Ventisca said:
No. KyBu let the cat out of the bag when he stated that the goal was to get JGR to VL. I appreciate his honesty, including letting Hamlin on The G-W-C restart to have the Lead while KyBu took a subordinate position.
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I don't understand what part of my post you are disagreeing with.
 
"First and foremost, we agreed to it to make sure that we at least got a (Joe Gibbs Racing) car to victory lane," Busch said. "They didn't want to do it (on) the previous restart, but once he got the lead, he wanted to.

"You know, it is what it is. At least we got a Gibbs car in victory lane. That's the big picture. That's what matters, and we move on."

And that is what Team Orders looks and sounds like.
 
Ventisca said:
"First and foremost, we agreed to it to make sure that we at least got a (Joe Gibbs Racing) car to victory lane," Busch said. "They didn't want to do it (on) the previous restart, but once he got the lead, he wanted to.

"You know, it is what it is. At least we got a Gibbs car in victory lane. That's the big picture. That's what matters, and we move on."

And that is what Team Orders looks and sounds like.
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yeah so? what is all the B.S. your trying to spread about KDB letting Hamlin win.
 
Lol that's not what team orders looks and sounds like. Team orders are orders. Instructions. Demands. The 18 didn't have any "orders," they could have done whatever they wanted. And what they did was work with the 11 to compromise a situation that was mutually beneficial to them both. It's really not that hard to understand. If KB said "F you, every man for himself!!!!" then the 11 would have started on the bottom, the 22 and 11 would have blown out into the lead and the 18 would have probably finished outside the top 5. Do you think that would have been a better strategy?
 
"Big picture"

Team Orders that KyBu doesn't race to win this time. He is used for another purpose, and KyBu went along with it.

Congrats Hamlin, your loyalty last year has been rewarded...
 
Ventisca said:
"Big picture"

Team Orders that KyBu doesn't race to win this time. He is used for another purpose, and KyBu went along with it.

Congrats Hamlin, your loyalty last year has been rewarded...
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He did race to win. He just couldn't.
 
Ventisca said:
"Big picture"

Team Orders that KyBu doesn't race to win this time. He is used for another purpose, and KyBu went along with it.

Congrats Hamlin, your loyalty last year has been rewarded...
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That's reasoning that is flawed. Hamlin with Logano on his tail down low pushing would have blown by KDB who had absolutely no help behind him. The way the team wanted it set up for the finish KDB gets a draft from Hamlin in front while keeping Logano behind and they both had a clear track ahead to race for the finish which is what happened BTW. I can see you would never make a crew chief. As it is, they set up a two car JGR race for win shutting out Logano, and the third JGR car made his own finish with McDowell's help.
 
Ventisca said:
No. KyBu let the cat out of the bag when he stated that the goal was to get JGR to VL. I appreciate his honesty, including letting Hamlin on The G-W-C restart to have the Lead while KyBu took a subordinate position.
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Imagine that, a driver wants his team to win :eek: I am absolutely shocked
 
Ventisca said:
Sure. Nothing to see.

KyBu just admitting that he let Hamlin get cleared for the Lead (not side by side) knowing how hard it would be to pass with two laps to go.

He would've done the same for Kez or Logano -- riiiiihgt... :rolleyes:

The question is WHY didn't KyBu care about giving up his best chance to Lead and Win the Daytona 500? Because THAT is what he admitted to when he just wanted to ensure a JGR car won (Team Orders) -- the most he could say in an interview without fully declaring his guilt.

#not100percent
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Are you familiar with the term "Kyle Busch Show" ? Coined by Brian Vickers a few years back. What you saw out of Kyle was a philosophy, a style of racing he believes in, where the two best cars get out front and race each other for the finish, without dicking around with 3rd and on back. Outside lane had the advantage, Kyle was on the bottom whether or not he let Hamlin drop down in front of him, and it fits Kyle's philosophy to let it play out that way. History is on the side of the guy in second place on the last restart, just ask the 10 car.
 
CaptainHiTop said:
Are you familiar with the term "Kyle Busch Show" ? Coined by Brian Vickers a few years back. What you saw out of Kyle was a philosophy, a style of racing he believes in, where the two best cars get out front and race each other for the finish, without dicking around with 3rd and on back. Outside lane had the advantage, Kyle was on the bottom whether or not he let Hamlin drop down in front of him, and it fits Kyle's philosophy to let it play out that way. History is on the side of the guy in second place on the last restart, just ask the 10 car.
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No, he agreed to give Hamlin the advantage. This wasn't two cars going 100% in the final two laps -- this was KyBu letting Hamlin get the advantage.
 
Ventisca said:
"Big picture"

Team Orders that KyBu doesn't race to win this time. He is used for another purpose, and KyBu went along with it.

Congrats Hamlin, your loyalty last year has been rewarded...
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I should probably know better than to wade into this, but oh well. Trying to add some nuance here, even though I assure you that I hate plate racing and the team play it demands more than everyone else here combined.

There are different levels of team strategy and orders. The strongest and most repulsive are when there is a literal pecking order. Driver A is the team's top driver and other team drivers exist primarily to benefit his races and championship. If Driver B winds up in front of Driver A, he will likely be ordered to let Driver A pass.

Lighter forms of team strategizing are not exactly orders, but they also would violate the 100% rule if that rule were actually enforceable. This would include team decisions that if one driver beats another to the lead, the trailing driver will not challenge the leading driver and jeopardize their overall team position.
 
Ventisca said:
No, he agreed to give Hamlin the advantage. This wasn't two cars going 100% in the final two laps -- this was KyBu letting Hamlin get the advantage.
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Bud if they werent going 100% we wouldnt be talking about Denny or Kyle winning the 500
 
StandOnIt said:
and who doesn't know that to be leading the race at Daytona on the last lap is usually more of a handicap than an asset.
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And who didn't see Hamlin close out the Daytona 500 leading the closing two laps...

KyBu went into detail on how the JGR Team was the focus and reason for him not racing Race Leader Hamlin on the Final Restart. :)
 
Spotter22 said:
Bud if they werent going 100% we wouldnt be talking about Denny or Kyle winning the 500
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KyBu was not going 100% when he gave Hamlin the front position to drop down. He stated that it was based on the JGR Team -- not KyBu the individual racer.

:D
 
Ventisca said:
KyBu was not going 100% when he gave Hamlin the front position to drop down. He stated that it was based on the JGR Team -- not KyBu the individual racer.

:D
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Ok, for 100 yards but after that it was do lets go
 
Ventisca said:
KyBu was not going 100% when he gave Hamlin the front position to drop down. He stated that it was based on the JGR Team -- not KyBu the individual racer.

:D
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uh yeah, that is what they do to get lined up on a plate track. And guess what, they do that on single lane short tracks also.
 
KyBu stated why he did what he did, and it wasn't what you just wrote...
 
Where Kyle got screwed was when Denny was leading by a nose when NASCAR threw the yellow. Had Kyle had the lead the rolls would have been reversed. Denny would have let Kyle down in front of Denny and Joey. In a way it was team orders, but not the kind you normally associate with those words.
 
Not a fan of either driver but if one had to lose I'm happy it was the 18. That said, there are surely team orders for some scenarios during the race but no-one will ever convince me it's anything other than every man for himself on the last laps. The facts just dont support it. It's silly to say Kyle Bush let him win, completely nuts. And it's disrespectful to the fact that Denny Hamlin drove mistake free at the end. Does anyone really think if Denny Hamlin had made the slightest of errors that Kyle Bush would feel sorry for him and lift? No way......
 
Ventisca said:
KyBu stated why he did what he did, and it wasn't what you just wrote...
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What is said is below. They find partners, they go faster that way.
@ 2:15, the win was bittersweet for me, I would have much rather won the race and be in victory lane
@ 4:04, Joey made it two side instead of staying behind me and giving me the shove...it was his race to win too
@ 7:00 they both talk about that goof McDowell, Kyle said he pretty much jammed on the brakes anyway going into turn three and made Joey and Kyle go side by side, he didn't push anybody.:cool:
@ 9:10 Kyle says about the restart, Keeping our strength in numbers And getting us lined up was going to be the best we could be, probably the best shot to win.
@ 16:10 Kyle talks about all of the new packages..funny


 
StandOnIt said:
What is said is below They find partners, they go faster that way.
@ 2:15, the win was bittersweet for me, I would have much rather won the race and be in victory lane
@ 4:04, Joey made it two side instead of staying behind me and giving me the shove...it was his race to win too
@ 7:00 they both talk about that goof McDowell, Kyle said he pretty much jammed on the brakes anyway going into turn three and made Joey and Kyle go side by side, he didn't push anybody.:cool:
@ 9:10 Kyle says about the restart, Keeping our strength in numbers And getting us lined up was going to be the best we could be, probably the best shot to win.
@ 16:10 Kyle talks about all of the new packages..funny


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You've proven nothing with this -- because KyBu admitted to giving Hamlin the Lane -- that defeats your argument. He said it was for the JGR Team.

That is straight up NOT 100% racing; and definitely Team Orders.
 
To quote the legend Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" @Ventisca, you haven't convinced anyone about your theory. You have no proof, other than Kyles, expressions or body language or whatever. Teams work together, yes we get that. You're saying Coach Gibbs ordered Kyle to finish second. That would be hard to explain to M&Ms don't you think? SOI, Spotter22 and a few others are extremely "schooled" on the sport of stock car racing. Like everyone else, they're not right about everything, but they're right on this.
 
"First and foremost, we agreed to it to make sure that we at least got a (Joe Gibbs Racing) car to victory lane," Busch said. "They didn't want to do it (on) the previous restart, but once he got the lead, he wanted to.

"You know, it is what it is. At least we got a Gibbs car in victory lane. That's the big picture. That's what matters, and we move on."
 
Ventisca said:
"First and foremost, we agreed to it to make sure that we at least got a (Joe Gibbs Racing) car to victory lane," Busch said. "They didn't want to do it (on) the previous restart, but once he got the lead, he wanted to.

"You know, it is what it is. At least we got a Gibbs car in victory lane. That's the big picture. That's what matters, and we move on."
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JGR got a car in the winners circle, what seems to be the issue with this fact ? Gibbs recently lost a son, some things are more important than the Daytona 500. A car in the winners circle is better than a piece of wadded up scrap metal.
 
Somehow some think just because you are second, that is laying down and taking one for the Gipper. You have said a hell of a lot more than Kyle and Hamlin making a deal a hell of a lot more.
 
I have a question if Kyle really wanted to race Dennys and Kyle is known as the master of restarts. Why didn't he try and stay even with Denny. All Kyle needed to do was stay even for a lap. Because after the white the next flag ends it. Are saying it was better for Kyle to pin all his hopes on a two lap shoot out when with all the crashing in the final laps a two lap shoot out was not guaranteed.
Also the #11 car winning was better for the J.D. story. As that was his number, his car, his driver choice.
I don't care if they let the #11 win or not. But no one on here can say definitively either way.
 
That "Deal" is to JGR, their TEAM.

You can bet that these topics were touched on during Team Meetings (especially after last year's Homestead Pit Spot giveaway). Planning like SHR did for Talladega last year with the four cars lined up. But this was end of race G-W-C. That means that KyBu was no longer 100% Racing -- he was handing off the front to Hamlin due to them being on the same Team. THAT is a problem. THAT is not 100% Racing.

To KyBu's credit -- he wasn't thinking about his own Team, he was trying to help out JGR by giving them the best shot.

I don't think that crap belongs in NASCAR, especially end of race -- let F1 do what they want.

That was the move of the race. No one got close enough to challenge because KyBu was a de facto blocker without real help behind him, and nobody else organized effectively. Hamlin won the race because of that KyBu gift.

KyBu racing Keselowski on the front row -- and they're racing, not making "Deals" on a G-W-C.
 
Ventisca said:
Nothing you have given disputes that KyBu gave Hamlin the front. So, you have proved nothing. By the way -- maybe you should call (or tweet) Matt Weaver and call him a liar...

http://parts.autoweek.com/article/n...nny-hamlin-and-kyle-busch-decided-daytona-500

-- Matt Weaver
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I am not disputing anything .... JGR got a win and three drivers with a great point start to the season. :idunno: I fail to see any problem with that, considering the circumstances they were faced with. I don't know Matt Weaver, he wasn't racing anyway
 
I dont see any reason to think team orders were involved. I do see McDowell having less Ford friends to work with in some future plate races.

No more "plates" but it's easier than typing superspeedway :D
 
nitetrain said:
I have a question if Kyle really wanted to race Dennys and Kyle is known as the master of restarts. Why didn't he try and stay even with Denny. All Kyle needed to do was stay even for a lap. Because after the white the next flag ends it. Are saying it was better for Kyle to pin all his hopes on a two lap shoot out when with all the crashing in the final laps a two lap shoot out was not guaranteed.
Also the #11 car winning was better for the J.D. story. As that was his number, his car, his driver choice.
I don't care if they let the #11 win or not. But no one on here can say definitively either way.
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Well I go with what Kyle said @ 4:04 in the clip I posted, he said he had a run on Hamlin with Joey behind him but Joey split off and made it two wide. So if some want to believe what they want to believe so be it. But I think I will go with what Kyle said and is standard practice..Kyle says that also, they do in on all tracks no matter what the size if it is an advantage to do so on restarts.
 
I can't believe any sane person thinks Kyle gave Denny anything here. Denny got the jump and out drove him period. And really think to yourself who gives away a Daytona 500 win???? Who would do that??? Kyle has never won the biggest crown jewel race in the sport and he's going to just let a team mate win??? Crazy talk.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I dont see any reason to think team orders were involved. I do see McDowell having less Ford friends to work with in some future plate races.

No more "plates" but it's easier than typing superspeedway :D
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on that clip I posted, both Kyle and Joey laughed at McDowell, Kyle said going into turn three McDowell just mashed on the brakes and was no help to either he or Joey and they both were laughing about it. In fact Kyle was thinking they would have had a three car run if they had stayed together, but they all broke up and Hamlin drove off, McDowell hit the brakes and Joey went side by side with Kyle..
 
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