Team Orders?

10-4 said:
I can't believe any sane person thinks Kyle gave Denny anything here. Denny got the jump and out drove him period. And really think to yourself who gives away a Daytona 500 win???? Who would do that??? Kyle has never won the biggest crown jewel race of the sport and he's going to let a team mate win? Crazy talk.
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KyBu stated that it was a deal he made with Hamlin. That part is not in dispute.
 
Ventisca said:
KyBu stated that it was a deal he made with Hamlin. That part is not in dispute.
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So he made a deal to let Denny win the biggest event of the season??? You can't be serious? A guy that has won almost 200 races in trucks, Xfinity and cup is going to give away a Daytona 500 Championship???? Hahaha... riiight
 
10-4 said:
There's nothing to research. Nobody out there let's a teammate win any of these races. Doesn't happen.
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yep, that what was going around here all day long. apparently some didn't listen to the presser after the race with the Kyle, Jones and Joey
 
10-4 said:
There's nothing to research. Nobody out there let's a teammate win any of these races. Doesn't happen.
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Here is the Deal -- as already discussed. After KyBu let Hamlin in, Hamlin was never challenged. KyBu stated that "First and Foremost" they needed to get JGR the win, and once KyBu gave Hamlin the front, the race for the lead was over. The race for second place was what you saw play out for two laps...

https://www.nascar.com/video/franch...hear-hamlin-talk-teammate-restart-with-busch/
 
IF you put Keselowski and KyBu on the front row for the Daytona 500 G-W-C, that would be a pure race. No deal making.

What you saw was JGR smartly locking up the top spot with that deal. The rest is just KyBu thru Last Place...
 
Ventisca said:
Here is the Deal -- as already discussed. After KyBu let Hamlin in, Hamlin was never challenged. KyBu stated that "First and Foremost" they needed to get JGR the win, and once KyBu gave Hamlin the front, the race for the lead was over. The race for second place was what you saw play out for two laps...

https://www.nascar.com/video/franch...hear-hamlin-talk-teammate-restart-with-busch/
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at 1:04 in that cut off clip, there are Joey and Kyle side by side instead of lined up..just like what Kyle said in the after race clip that I posted and McDowell out of position also.
 
Ventisca said:
IF you put Keselowski and KyBu on the front row for the Daytona 500 G-W-C, that would be a pure race. No deal making.

What you saw was JGR smartly locking up the top spot with that deal. The rest is just KyBu thru Last Place...
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You obviously didn't watch Martinsville year before last when Kez and Joey controlled so many restarts that Kenseth went nuts and T boned Joey. It's common practice and done all of the time.
 
StandOnIt said:
at 1:04 in that cut off clip, there are Joey and Kyle side by side instead of lined up..just like what Kyle said in the after race clip that I posted and McDowell out of position also.
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Joey had nothing for Kyle. Shifting around without dominant position is just fleeting -- just second place fiddling while Hamlin escapes into clean air.
 
StandOnIt said:
You obviously didn't watch Martinsville year before last when Kez and Joey controlled so many restarts that Kenseth went nuts and T boned Joey. It's common practice and done all of the time.
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G-W-C Deal making is not 100% racing, especially when Team (JGR) is the focus. But I already discussed the team aspects as it related to SHR at Talladega last year; so you have selectively missed the point.
 
Ventisca said:
Joey had nothing for Kyle. Shifting around without dominant position is just fleeting -- just second place fiddling while Hamlin escapes into clean air.
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Probably need to listen to the clip I posted is all I can say and like I said Kyle was wanting to be lined up with Joey pushing..that is said in the clip I posted, not an opinion
 
Trying to make it sound like it is a weakness to control both lanes on a restart for the win at the Daytona 500 on a green and white checkers? good luck with that. Like Gibbs said, you have four cars in the race and three aren't going to be too happy.
 
Ventisca said:
Here is the Deal -- as already discussed. After KyBu let Hamlin in, Hamlin was never challenged. KyBu stated that "First and Foremost" they needed to get JGR the win, and once KyBu gave Hamlin the front, the race for the lead was over. The race for second place was what you saw play out for two laps...

https://www.nascar.com/video/franch...hear-hamlin-talk-teammate-restart-with-busch/
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Hamlin picked the lane for the restart. Maybe I need to go back watch some of those restarts again but wasn't the outside lane the preferred/better restart lane all day? Probably Kyle was a lit
Ventisca said:
Here is the Deal -- as already discussed. After KyBu let Hamlin in, Hamlin was never challenged. KyBu stated that "First and Foremost" they needed to get JGR the win, and once KyBu gave Hamlin the front, the race for the lead was over. The race for second place was what you saw play out for two laps...

https://www.nascar.com/video/franch...hear-hamlin-talk-teammate-restart-with-busch/
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No orders came from the top to these drivers. Kyle is the one who wanted the agreement here. Denny didn't ask for it but why would he say no if Kyle did? That said, Denny still had the preferred lane. Kyle was at a disadvantage in a drag race. And who had a car good enough to push Kyle anywhere? McDowell??? Logano with that left rear damage catching air??? Kyle was looking for a mistake. And he got blocked. But read it for yourself below. Denny had control of this and he didn't screw it up. Nobody gave away anything here....

Quotes below from: https://autoweek.com/article/nascar...nny-hamlin-and-kyle-busch-decided-daytona-500


For his part, Hamlin says they had agreed before the race that deals wouldn't be made within 10 laps to go. So when the No. 18 asked on the restart with six laps to go, the No. 11 team said, "No, let's just race it out, being on the front row."

Ultimately, Hamlin believes the agreement worked out for both drivers, because even if Busch deferred the top spot to his teammate, they would still be 1-2 coming to the white flag.

Had they not agreed, Hamlin and Busch would have been in a drag race, with some combination of Joey Logano and Michael McDowell behind them.

Hamlin says it was the No. 18 team's idea to work out the deal.

"I think they came over to my spotter and said, 'Hey, do you want to drop down in front of us, we're open to do that,' and when I saw him and the 22 lined up, I was like, 'Well, absolutely, sure.' I definitely wanted to do that.

"I thought that was the best move for us. But it still gave him a great opportunity to win because he got a great run on us on the backstretch, and we had to block it."

Ultimately, Hamlin believes it would have been worse for Busch to have been in a drag race.

"If he's on the inside of me and I'm right there on his door, there's no offensive play that he can make," Hamlin said. "He made the right move in my opinion to let us do that so he can have the 22 (behind him) and make a run."

Busch indeed got a run and got near Hamlin, but just couldn't complete the pass since Logano and McDowell were unable to get lined up together. McDowell ended up behind Busch but couldn't get to the No. 18's rear bumper.
 
watching the end of the race again and the runs cars were getting mcdowell cost lagano the race. the ford camp should not be happy.
 
10-4 said:
Hamlin picked the lane for the restart. Maybe I need to go back watch some of those restarts again but wasn't the outside lane the preferred/better restart lane all day? Probably Kyle was a lit



No orders came from the top to these drivers. Kyle is the one who wanted the agreement here. Denny didn't ask for it but why would he say no if Kyle did? That said, Denny still had the preferred lane. Kyle was at a disadvantage in a drag race. And who had a car good enough to push Kyle anywhere? McDowell??? Logano with that left rear damage catching air??? Kyle was looking for a mistake. And he got blocked. But read it for yourself below. Denny had control of this and he didn't screw it up. Nobody gave away anything here....

Quotes below from: https://autoweek.com/article/nascar...nny-hamlin-and-kyle-busch-decided-daytona-500


For his part, Hamlin says they had agreed before the race that deals wouldn't be made within 10 laps to go. So when the No. 18 asked on the restart with six laps to go, the No. 11 team said, "No, let's just race it out, being on the front row."

Ultimately, Hamlin believes the agreement worked out for both drivers, because even if Busch deferred the top spot to his teammate, they would still be 1-2 coming to the white flag.

Had they not agreed, Hamlin and Busch would have been in a drag race, with some combination of Joey Logano and Michael McDowell behind them.

Hamlin says it was the No. 18 team's idea to work out the deal.

"I think they came over to my spotter and said, 'Hey, do you want to drop down in front of us, we're open to do that,' and when I saw him and the 22 lined up, I was like, 'Well, absolutely, sure.' I definitely wanted to do that.

"I thought that was the best move for us. But it still gave him a great opportunity to win because he got a great run on us on the backstretch, and we had to block it."

Ultimately, Hamlin believes it would have been worse for Busch to have been in a drag race.

"If he's on the inside of me and I'm right there on his door, there's no offensive play that he can make," Hamlin said. "He made the right move in my opinion to let us do that so he can have the 22 (behind him) and make a run."

Busch indeed got a run and got near Hamlin, but just couldn't complete the pass since Logano and McDowell were unable to get lined up together. McDowell ended up behind Busch but couldn't get to the No. 18's rear bumper.
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You don't know that. JGR yanked the Pit Stall from Hamlin last year after Joe had his sit-down with Hamlin.

JGR meetings leading up to this race and having the competing teams collude to sort out how KyBu was going to give Hamlin the front on the G-W-C restart is pure race manipulation, especially bothersome for the end of a race. If it happens earlier during the race like SHR did at Talladega, then few people have an issue with it. If it happens in the closing laps when it directly relates to Win or Lose, then that's a problem.

KyBu wasn't going 100% when he gave the front to Hamlin as part of the deal. That's a problem. In fact, that was the race -- as everyone was racing for Second Place at best.

The fact that KyBu stated it was to ensure JGR got the Win, makes it a staged outcome for all practical purposes -- WWE in effect.
 
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The fact that Hamlin was worried if KyBu would actually let him in just proves the deliberate manipulation of the race -- because it is something that runs counter to competitors; except in this case KyBu and Hamlin were conspiring to get JGR a victory by locking Logano out of the front on the restart while ensuring Hamlin got the front.

IF they're colluding for the JGR organization, then not only is that de facto Team Orders, it is also a breach of the 100% rule. You take a dive and stall Logano (and the pack) and I'll get clear is essentially what happened.

That is a problem in the closing laps, as nobody seems to care if it happens earlier in the race.
 
As for your assertion that KyBu would never purposefully lose a race -- well, that is what happened. KyBu committed to giving Hamlin an advantage and that was key to Hamlin's victory.
 
StandOnIt said:
on that clip I posted, both Kyle and Joey laughed at McDowell, Kyle said going into turn three McDowell just mashed on the brakes and was no help to either he or Joey and they both were laughing about it. In fact Kyle was thinking they would have had a three car run if they had stayed together, but they all broke up and Hamlin drove off, McDowell hit the brakes and Joey went side by side with Kyle..
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Yeah I saw that interview.. I thought that was funny.. there was no way McDowell was getting by Kyle unless he went with Joey and then if he did he wouldnt have gotten by Joey anyway
 
JGR had meetings to determine the end of the Daytona 500? Did JGR get permission from NASCAR also? Did NASCAR collude with JGR to make sure Hamlin won? I'm thinking Coach Gibbs paid someone to mess Laganos car up, cause he was the best Ford. And then he bribed the Wood Brothers to make sure Menard took out most of the field. And then he came on everyodys radio and said, " Kyle, you better listen to me boy. This here is Dennys race, and you best not mess it up, you hear me boy?" And Kyle sheepishly said " yessir". This makes as much sense as what you're promoting with zero evidence.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Hamlin was the leader.. I'd say that was enough of an advantage
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Apparently not -- he was part of "the deal". KyBu himself stated that he gave the front to Hamlin. In fact, Hamlin was worried that KyBu wouldn't go through with it (and give Hamlin the front) if you listen to the radio conversation.

Do you think if KyBu were racing Keselowski that he would've given him the front?
 
mack said:
JGR had meetings to determine the end of the Daytona 500? Did JGR get permission from NASCAR also? Did NASCAR collude with JGR to make sure Hamlin won? I'm thinking Coach Gibbs paid someone to mess Laganos car up, cause he was the best Ford. And then he bribed the Wood Brothers to make sure Menard took out most of the field. And then he came on everyodys radio and said, " Kyle, you better listen to me boy. This here is Dennys race, and you best not mess it up, you hear me boy?" And Kyle sheepishly said " yessir". This makes as much sense as what you're promoting with zero evidence.
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KyBu did what people said he would never do -- KyBu went less than 100% in the closing laps.
 
Ventisca said:
Apparently not -- he was part of "the deal". KyBu himself stated that he was giving the front to Hamlin.

Do you think if KyBu were racing Keselowski that he would've given him the front?
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That's not team orders.. that's teammates working together to make sure their boss gets the trophy. You would do the same thing.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
That's not team orders.. that's teammates working together to make sure their boss gets the trophy. You would do the same thing.
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This is as straight forward as manipulation gets. The 100% Rule should be pretty simple, but its not.
 
Busch said. “I probably knew better, but I took that chance to make sure at least one of us won."

KyBu knew what he was doing to sacrifice himself on the restart to help get JGR the win.
 
Denny Hamlin was in the catbird seat whether Kyle let him in or not. He was the leader controlling the restart and was in the dominant lane. How many times did the inside car end up out front from any of the restarts? Instead of drag racing Kyle gambled at the chance to make a big run from behind and he lost.
 
10-4 said:
Denny Hamlin was in the catbird seat whether Kyle let him in or not. He was the leader controlling the restart and was in the dominant lane. How many times did the inside car end up out front from any of the restarts? Instead of drag racing Kyle gambled at the chance to make a big run from behind and he lost.
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If KyBu raced to win that race, he wouldn't have made that deal.

I can only dream of KyBu and Keselowski in that same position running a G-W-C for the Daytona 500. KyBu would not be OK with letting Kez get the front.
 
Ventisca said:
If KyBu raced to win that race, he wouldn't have made that deal.

I can only dream of KyBu and Keselowski in that same position running a G-W-C for the Daytona 500. KyBu would not be OK with letting Kez get the front.
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If Kyle Bush drag races Denny Hamlin Michael McDowell and Joey Logano have a GREAT opportunity to steal a win. What Kyle did hampered them. And himself too. That was Kyle's strategy. It was a move of desperation from a guy who wasnt controlling the restart anyway. The gamble ultimately failed when he built up that good run on the backstretch and Denny blocked him. If he was going to give the race away to Denny why in the world did he make that failed move? That was a move for the win as good a chance as any alternative he had. End result was JGR wins.
 
10-4 said:
Denny Hamlin was in the catbird seat whether Kyle let him in or not. He was the leader controlling the restart and was in the dominant lane. How many times did the inside car end up out front from any of the restarts? Instead of drag racing Kyle gambled at the chance to make a big run from behind and he lost.
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They made a deal -- because if KyBu did his job and raced Hamlin, a lot of bad things could happen side-by-side.

Hamlin took the position because KyBu put JGR above his own interests and protected Hamlin from having to race him, which could result in a wreck (like KyBu and Truex at Indy) or allow Logano the opportunity to pass them.
 
KyBu got Hamlin's pit stall.

Hamlin got KyBu to give him the front.
 
Ventisca said:
They made a deal -- because if KyBu did his job and raced Hamlin, a lot of bad things could happen side-by-side.

Hamlin took the position because KyBu put JGR above his own interests and protected Hamlin from having to race him, which could result in a wreck (like KyBu and Truex at Indy) or allow Logano the opportunity to pass them.
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How many times do I have to point out Kyle Bush got a head of steam on the back stretch and tried to make a move on Denny that Denny blocked. That is what you call racing for the win. He didn't lay over and quit or give Denny anything.
 
10-4 said:
How many times do I have to point out Kyle Bush got a head of steam on the back stretch and tried to make a move on Denny that Denny blocked. That is what you call racing for the win. He didn't lay over and quit or give Denny anything.
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That is meaningless after KyBu did the noble deed of not racing Hamlin on the G-W-C Restart.
 
Ventisca said:
That is meaningless after KyBu did the noble deed of not racing Hamlin on the G-W-C Restart.
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No it's not meaningless he was going for the win....

If Kyle drag races he is going to lose. Do you think Hamlin is a slacker on restarts? Kyle did not control the restart and was in the worst lane. Essentially he was between a rock and a hard place here.

The path he chose ensured Joey Logano would not win. Tough luck for Joey but that's racing. This was going to be between Denny and Kyle.
 
10-4 said:
No it's not meaningless he was going for the win....

If Kyle drag races he is going to lose. Do you think Hamlin is a slacker on restarts? Kyle did not control the restart and was in the worst lane. Essentially he was between a rock and a hard place here.

The path he chose ensured Joey Logano would not win. Tough luck for Joey but that's racing. This was going to be between Denny and Kyle.
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KyBu wasn't going for the win. KyBu stated that he let Hamlin have the front to best ensure that JGR would get the win. That is a big distinction because now you are moving into WWE territory.
 
Ventisca said:
KyBu wasn't going for the win. KyBu stated that he let Hamlin have the front to best ensure that JGR would get the win. That is a big distinction because now you are moving into WWE territory.
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He did not give Hamlin anything. He had two choices here and he chose to set him up for a pass on the last half lap which failed. You dont try to pass someone if you're "giving them a race".
 
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