Team Orders?

10-4 said:
He did not give Hamlin anything. He had two choices here and he chose to set him up for a pass on the last half lap which failed. You dont try to pass someone if you're "giving them a race".
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Not only did KyBu give Hamlin the front, they have the radio chatter of the teams planning it, and KyBu admitting after the race that he did it.
 
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Ventisca said:
Not only did KyBu give Hamlin the front, they have the radio chatter of the teams planning it, and KyBu admitting after the race that he did it.
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Denny didn't plan anything. Kyle offered to do this and no-one is surprised that Denny says OK. This sealed Logano's fate. Kyle's chance to win was the last half lap and Logano's fate was sealed. Great strategy to deny Penske from stealing one. That's racing...
 
10-4 said:
Denny didn't plan anything. Kyle offered to do this and no-one is surprised when Denny says OK. This sealed Logano's fate. Kyle's chance to win was the last half lap. It was either Denny or Kyle and Kyle made sure Logano never had a chance. That's racing...
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I didn't say Hamlin planned it, his team was in contact with KyBu's team and Denny accepted, even though he was worried that KyBu might not go thru with it. It ended up sealing KyBu's fate as much as Logano's.

KyBu sacrificed himself for JGR, his best chance was to race Hamlin to get position, just like he would've raced Logano or Keselowski if he were on the front row with either of them.
 
Ventisca said:
I didn't say Hamlin planned it, his team was in contact with KyBu's team and Denny accepted, even though he was worried that KyBu might not go thru with it. It ended up sealing KyBu's fate as much as Logano's.

KyBu sacrificed himself for JGR, his best chance was to race Hamlin to get position, just like he would've raced Logani or Keselowski if he were on the front row with either of them.
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You can't sit here and say his best chance was to race Hamlin to get the position as if it were a given. That's a stretch and the chances of it happening like that were slim. The facts are Hamlin is not a slouch on restarts and he controlled the race from the preferred lane. It was his race to lose. Kyle needed luck either way. How many times have you seen two cars drag racing on the last lap at a superspeedway, both losing speed as a result, then somebody builds a good run of steam from behind them and steals the win? So that's pretty much a no brainer from his view and Kyle made sure he was the ONLY one with an opportunity to make that run for the win.
 
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NASCAR's racing integrity is absolutely in doubt when drivers consider their race organizations above their individual teams, especially in the closing laps.

Fans deserve to see an honest competition with drivers dedicated to winning, without consideration for other interests of organizations, manufacturers, etc

The one constant of KDB was his desire to win. That now has been compromised as he subordinated his team's chances of winning to a JGR victory. He made it quite clear that THAT was his intention.

NASCAR and F1 are similar in that respect. There is no 100% Rule of any meaning.
 
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10-4 said:
You can't sit here and say his best chance was to race Hamlin to get the position as if it were a given. That's a stretch and the chances of it happening like that were slim. The facts are Hamlin is not a slouch on restarts and he controlled the race from the preferred lane. It was his race to lose. Kyle needed luck either way. How many times have you seen two cars drag racing on the last lap at a superspeedway, both losing speed as a result, then somebody builds a good run of steam from behind them and steals the win? So that's pretty much a no brainer from his view and Kyle made sure he was the ONLY one with an opportunity to make that run for the win.
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KyBu stated that he gave Hamlin the front to ensure JGR had the best chance of winning. Not that he had the best shot of winning. He compromised his will to win.
 
Ventisca said:
KyBu stated that he gave Hamlin the front to ensure JGR had the best chance of winning. Not that he had the best shot of winning. He compromised his will to win.
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He compromised Logano's shot at a win and that's what hurts you so badly it seems. On the other hand Kyle alone still had a slim chance that came up short. Regardless what he chose the only person that was going to beat Denny Hamlin on that day was...... Denny Hamlin.
 
Ventisca said:
I did, KyBu admitted that he gave the position to Hamlin, not for his benefit, but to ensure one of the JGR cars got the Win.
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You've proved something, but you haven't proved what you're claiming. You can't. You're swimming upstream, and there's only one person that can't see that. Wonder who?
 
Funny how the guy that was losing his mind over the 34 not helping the 22 is losing his mind over the 18 helping the 11.

I’m guessing he’s a Logano fan who’s trying to rationalize why the 22 didn’t win.
 
ToyYoda said:
Funny how the guy that was losing his mind over the 34 not helping the 22 is losing his mind over the 18 helping the 11.

I’m guessing he’s a Logano fan who’s trying to rationalize why the 22 didn’t win.
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Yep, go figure. McDowell basically ended his career by not helping the 22, but KB is a quitter because he was in the slowest line and may have thought it best to form a straight line with his team mate and settle it between those two. Plus Kyle may have been guessing McDowell would be helping the 22. Can't be both ways.
 
Just read through this....that’s what they call a message board brawl
 
How can all of you be so sure Kyle didn't play the good team mate?
Your argument is that Kyle is a true racer and would never let a Daytona 500 get away. Then why didn't he race Denny on the last restart the same way he would anyone else?
Again you are all saying he had two laps to pass Denny but really it could have been one lap because after the white the race would end on the next flag.
Also what makes a better story? The #11 winning which was JD's number and car or the #18?
I think you are all scared to imagine that just maybe Kyle did play the good teammate. Because then everything you believe Nascar to be would be gone. It would be like when you first realize Santa isn't real, the end of innocence.
 
10-4 said:
Denny didn't plan anything. Kyle offered to do this and no-one is surprised that Denny says OK.
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I was surprised, honestly.

Public Service Announcement: There are some who get really butt hurt around here when a poster says, "no one." I am not one of those posters, but just thought I'd let you know what you could be stepping into.
 
Abbott: Goofè Dean. Well, let's see, we have on the bags, Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third...

Costello: That's what I want to find out.

Abbott: I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.

Costello: Are you the manager?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: You gonna be the coach too?

Abbott: Yes.

Costello: And you don't know the fellows' names?

Abbott: Well I should.

Costello: Well then who's on first?

Abbott: Yes.
 
Ventisca said:
NASCAR's racing integrity is absolutely in doubt when drivers consider their race organizations above their individual teams, especially in the closing laps.

Fans deserve to see an honest competition with drivers dedicated to winning, without consideration for other interests of organizations, manufacturers, etc

The one constant of KDB was his desire to win. That now has been compromised as he subordinated his team's chances of winning to a JGR victory. He made it quite clear that THAT was his intention.

NASCAR and F1 are similar in that respect. There is no 100% Rule of any meaning.
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This was exactly the point I made when I started this post. I never said that Kyle let Denny win, I said that Kyle, who is arguably the best driver on restarts in NASCAR, let Denny go on the restart when that was his best chance to win. He did not race him 100% for whatever reason.I raced myself in the mid to late 70s and was a tuner / mechanic on a national championship team throughout the 80s. We would NEVER have told either of our drivers to do anything but give it their all in a race, in fact, I would be pulling my hair out at times watching them go at it on the track and thinking "please don't take each other out". Make no mistake, we had TWO teams with two separate sponsors and if I had to face either one on Monday and tell them that we let the other team go ahead in the biggest race of the year, we would have had one unhappy sponsor who gave us 6 figures to have their brand in victory circle and our driver didn't do his all to get there.
 
Uh huh, finish one two three. excellent strategy, last time I was paying attention, all of them said they worked for Joe Gibbs racing and ya know what, I bet their checks all say that also. Lining up nose to tail is the formation teams use instead of racing side by side especially at a race where aero matters. Some want to make an issue out of that, some want to make an issue out of anything. But one, two, three were the results at the pay window. I don't guess anybody was paying attention last year when the 4 SHR cars were lining up together, letting each other in by dragging the brakes, and completely dominating the race. I guess the 4th car in line wasn't racing 100%
 
I'm telling you, I'm a student of this sport and I have seen all but one Cup restrictor plate race ever run, and this is a 100% NON STORY. The strategy was to make sure nobody BUT a JGR car won the race, not decide WHICH ONE won the race. I will also tell you for as long as having a teammate in these races has mattered, the driver that was the farthest ahead has almost ALWAYS been chosen to lead the draft of team cars. At some point, usually on the last lap, it becomes the driver's choice to maintain position, or try to win the race, but that is HOW this game is played. The rules put the drivers and teams in a tough position, and they deal with it the best they can and try to get the best finishes they can out of it. It is what it is. Nobody IN the sport has taken issue with it.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
*insert beating a dead horse meme here*
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Ya, it is beating a dead horse at this point but I actually tend to side with Ventisca on this one. I don't think it was Joe Gibbs: "Hey KB, you are letting DH win this one..no ifs ands or buts". I don't think that happened and I don't think Vetisca is say that happened either.

But Bush clearly, in his own words, let Hamlin in there for the lead. That isn't disputable.
 
Flyer22 said:
Ya, it is beating a dead horse at this point but I actually tend to side with Ventisca on this one.
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I'm glad that you can make sense of this mess. It's mostly gobbledygook to me.
 
Formerjackman said:
Hey, what do you know, some jackwagon edited my post, the part that totally puts the whole post in context. Where do you people learn to moderate? You erase non-offensive stuff, and then letothers savage each other. Whoever you are, you might want to get a clue.
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I have come to the conclusion that without paying close attention to sometimes hours of posts, the hit and miss moderation is what it is. Sometimes your the bat sometimes the ball. It happens to all of us though if it is any comfort. :)
 
Well, I say what I mean and I mean what I say, and I choose my words VERY carefully, so I take great offense when someone infers something or tries to attach certain meaning to something I have said without asking me about it. I work hard at making my point without being inflammatory and offensive.
 
StandOnIt said:
Uh huh, finish one two three. excellent strategy, last time I was paying attention, all of them said they worked for Joe Gibbs racing and ya know what, I bet their checks all say that also. Lining up nose to tail is the formation teams use instead of racing side by side especially at a race where aero matters. Some want to make an issue out of that, some want to make an issue out of anything. But one, two, three were the results at the pay window. I don't guess anybody was paying attention last year when the 4 SHR cars were lining up together, letting each other in by dragging the brakes, and completely dominating the race. I guess the 4th car in line wasn't racing 100%
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It becomes a problem for two reasons only ............ Kyle Busch and Joe Gibbs racing were involved.
 
kyle18fan said:
It becomes a problem for two reasons only ............ Kyle Busch and Joe Gibbs racing were involved.
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No, all statements about Kyle Busch and Joe Gibbs on this board are statements of fact validated by believable references and address provided upon request.
 
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