Uh Oh...Cheater cheater pumpkin eater...L1 for the 4 team

I wonder how many parts there are on a race ready Cup car. I also wonder how long it would take to check each and every one of those parts to the degree that would satisfy many of the board members. It's unrealistic to expect every single thing to be checked on these cars and some will get through under the radar. That's one of the reasons that these wining cars and other random selections are taken back to Nascar's R&D building for a more thorough check. Seems like the system worked to me.

Does anyone remember when they used to broadcast the car tear-downs @ the R&D Center? I used to post a link weekly for members to watch. I don't think they broadcast it anymore but if you ever did take the time to watch one of those procedures, you'd easily understand why it's completely unrealistic for something like that to take place trackside. A complete inspection of one of those cars is a lengthy process to say the least.
 
From 2007, only the names change :D
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Revman said:
Because they are all responsible. What are you going to do, shut the team down?
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I doubt the engine guys had anything to do with this, and maybe no knowledge. The shock and suspension experts may have been in on it. Obviously the body guys were. The pit crew? Not likely.
Revman said:
It won't stop it, and if you make the rules so harsh that you start parking cars, it will really piss off the 10 people who come to the races.
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It will only piss people off for a couple of races. After hitting a few teams with a hammer, the rest will get the message pretty quickly. If that doesn't do it, start yanking charters.
SlicedBread22 said:
All I know is Joey had the best (legal) playoff car at the last 1.5 :D ‼
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All you know is that Joey's car wasn't randomly selected for detailed inspection.
kyle18fan said:
The 4 sandbags until the flag drops, probably hoping nobody notices that his car is a quarter a second faster than anything else.
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Having the fastest 10-lap average in the last two practices is an unusual way to sandbag.
Dr_B_UNC said:
... the 40 points was the max the rules allowed. Harvick keeps the 16 stage points, ...
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Another example of how NASCAR failed to fully consider the impacts of stage racing when they implemented it.
Towmater said:
Is the elephant in the room gambling? If the race results are official then people expect to be paid for any and all wagers they make. People in Vegas or at track betting locations are not going to hold their tickets for 4 days to be paid. Many of them would no longer be in that area to be paid. At the same time, the casinos/track betting centers that take bets aren’t going to be happy when the guy who came in second suddenly becomes the official winner of a race the Thursday after a race inspection. It would be a nightmare for them and legal issues would no doubt start.
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That sounds like the bookies' problem, not NASCAR's.
Wrangler1 said:
Someone smarter than me is going to have to explain how this laser system cannot detect a body panel out of position, specifically the spoiler in this case.
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Simple. It probably wasn't programmed to check those dimensions, most likely because someone neglected to specify that to the programmers.
LouieLouie said:
Here's a question, If Harvick wins the trophy does he get an asterisk next to his name since he has been caught cheating this year?
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Do you see asterisks next to any of the other champions' names?
Do you think that means none of them cheated at some point in the season? :eek:
nitetrain said:
I might be late to the party asking this question.
But why does Harvick get to keep the stage points he earned?
So Nascar is saying the car was legal for the first two stages and then the team moved the spoiler to win the race. And thus was illegal and needed to lose points.
And then Nascar's BS L1 point system where the penalty range is 10 to 40 points. To me that would be like the NFL saying holding this time is 10 yards and then holding this time is 20 yards. What?
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Because NASCAR caps an L1 penalty at 40 points. That's why they should have gone to an L2 penalty; it tops out at 75 points.
See my previous comment about NASCAR not fully thinking through stage points before implementing them.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
That sounds like the bookies' problem, not NASCAR's.
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Your response doesn’t take into consideration that the sport is going to allow betting at the tracks. Also, the response doesn’t take into consideration the fact that legal sports betting establishments would stop taking NASCAR bets. As much as many might not like it, the sport receiving bets on it increases the popularity, elevates the sport in status, and legitimizes the sport.
 
StandOnIt said:
decimal inch scale. 200 thousands or .2 tenths is close to 13/64th's = .201325. .3 is close to 19/64 th's =.296875. Decimal inch scale as you can tell is a more accurate way of measuring tolerances. Racecars/engineering seldom use fractional inch scale.
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*hangs head in shame as I was once good in math...*
 
Towmater said:
Your response doesn’t take into consideration that the sport is going to allow betting at the tracks.
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The sport doesn't allow or disallow anything; that's the tracks that are allowing it.
Towmater said:
Also, the response doesn’t take into consideration the fact that legal sports betting establishments would stop taking NASCAR bets.
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Still sounds like the bookies' problem. As long as anyone is willing to bet on it, someone will be happy to take their money.
Towmater said:
As much as many might not like it, the sport receiving bets on it increases the popularity, elevates the sport in status, and legitimizes the sport.
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Legitimizes? Didn't the NBA have a huge scandal ten or so years ago over the refs taking bribes on how they called games? We must have differing definitions of 'legitimate'.
 
nitetrain said:
And then Nascar's BS L1 point system where the penalty range is 10 to 40 points. To me that would be like the NFL saying holding this time is 10 yards and then holding this time is 20 yards. What?
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It is not the same. An L1 penalty covers a range of violations. The range of the penalty reflects how NASCAR sees the severity of the violation. The rules in racing do not correlate to ball and stick rules.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Legitimizes? Didn't the NBA have a huge scandal ten or so years ago over the refs taking bribes on how they called games? We must have differing definitions of 'legitimate'.
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Yes, legitimize. You grasp at one event and put it forth as I guess a way to delegitmize the NBA? The NBA is still around, as is baseball. Both have had issues. I don’t think anyone looks at them as being the WWE, i.e., fixing the outcome of the games. The point it that huge amounts of money move through sports betting and it makes people take notice in the sports that are a part of that.

BTW, what the 4 Team did is cheating. That delegitmizes a sport in a HUGE way. If the outcome of your event isn't real, then the sport isn't real. Kind of like the Tour de France. They had to change the way they did business and the sport to get people to buy back into it. Although, I'm not sure if they will ever regain the public's trust about cycling.
 
ChexOrWrex said:
NASCAR finds this egregious but has no problem with driver side doos flexing at speed (which you can see on TV).

Don’t forget “fans need to leave the track knowing who won the race”.

Setting this sport up for ripping a championship away from a team days after celebrating.
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Please don't put me in the position of having to defend NASCAR on this. The playoffs format and Homestead finale suck and I view them as comical. However, NASCAR has stated that an "expedited" R&D style teardown takes place on Sunday evening at Homestead, and all final calls are made then. Should they find a way to do that every week? I don't have the same impatience many do, but perhaps.

Manufacturing and forging what is supposed to be an externally sourced spec piece on the car is a more serious infraction, yes. That makes sense.
 
Towmater said:
BTW, what the 4 Team did is cheating. That delegitmizes a sport in a HUGE way. If the outcome of your event isn't real, then the sport isn't real.
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Okay, so if you don't see disqualifying a non-conforming car as an option, what do you suggest NASCAR do? For the record, I'm just fine with sending illegal teams home.
 
FearThe4 said:
yeah very dumb but this brings up the question what happens if whoever wins the title at homestead if this happens then. Would they take the championship away from him ?
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That's a great question, we might have to wait until the next Tuesday to find out who the champ is.
 
jws926 said:
I mean , the only thing I can think of to say is, live by the sword, die by the sword.
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that is the way it should be instead of try it we have enough points it won't hurt us that bad. I have to admit, it is going to make Harvicks race interesting. BTW how is your new AB compressor working out?
 
StandOnIt said:
that is the way it should be instead of try it we have enough points it won't hurt us that bad. I have to admit, it is going to make Harvicks race interesting. BTW how is your new AB compressor working out?
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I agree, its gonna make it interesting.
Its working, but I need to get an O ring to put on the regulator side, which I knew that before I bought it, so the tank isnt holding air, but it still works.
 
Pushing the car to the edge of the rules, and sometimes over the edge has been part of the sport since it was fully sanctioned. Unapproved engineering has moved the sport forward despite NASCARs attempts to keep the car in the stone ages. Harvick will be just fine, as long as he doesn’t have an engine failure, tire issue, or any other number of potential problems at Phoenix.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Okay, so if you don't see disqualifying a non-conforming car as an option, what do you suggest NASCAR do? For the record, I'm just fine with sending illegal teams home.
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NASCAR needs to change its culture in the garage. Cheating shouldn't be acceptable and the punishment should be harsh. Using the excuse that everyone is doing it so we had to cheat just to keep up is what the guys in cycling used.
 
Towmater said:
NASCAR needs to change its culture in the garage. Cheating shouldn't be acceptable and the punishment should be harsh. Using the excuse that everyone is doing it so we had to cheat just to keep up is what the guys in cycling used.
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I think the whole deal is fascinating. NASCAR is trying to keep a whole bunch of smart engineers in a box so that costs can be contained. Even if you provided more flexibility/adjustability in the cars (think adjustable track bar), everybody will end up with similar solutions because the box is so tight. You blow up the box, and costs will go nuts (I know @StandOnIt, I have said I want this, but I hear ya). IMO, however, as long as you have this box, and these brilliant engineers, your culture cannot change because the engineers are paid to find hundredths. Getting rid of the engineers is not an option obviously. I don't know what the solution is, but harsher penalties will only make the engineers more creative. Racing at this level is in a very difficult spot, and there is no precedent for solution. Absolutely fascinating.
 
It's a cat and mouse game. Always has been always will be. I hear they are twisting the brand new composite bodies in the Xfinity series. :D
 
Towmater said:
NASCAR needs to change its culture in the garage. Cheating shouldn't be acceptable and the punishment should be harsh. Using the excuse that everyone is doing it so we had to cheat just to keep up is what the guys in cycling used.
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Agreed, but you bypassed my question. How do you suggest NASCAR bring about this cultural change? You rejected disqualification, so what harsh punishments do you suggest? Points don't matter as much once you have a Chase-qualifying win for the year. Money? Let''s be serious.

Disqualify 'em. 3 DQs and we hand your charter to the unchartered team that's currently highest in owner points. Both of those put the responsibility where it belongs - on the owner.
 
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Charlie Spencer said:
Agreed, but you bypassed my question. How do you suggest NASCAR bring about this cultural change? You rejected disqualification, so what harsh punishments do you suggest? Points don't matter as much once you have a Chase-qualifying win for the year. Money? Let''s be serious.

Disqualify 'em. 3 DQs and we hand your charter to the unchartered team that's currently highest in owner points. Both of those put the responsibility where it belongs - on the owner.
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3dqs and your done for the year, that will fix it.
 
its one thing to push the limits on parts you make yourself,
but replacing nascar supplied parts with cheat parts is the worst offense.
the whole 4 team should be parked for the rest of the year.
 
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