Uh Oh...Cheater cheater pumpkin eater...L1 for the 4 team

TexasRaceLady said:
A little more information --- A VERY interesting read.
The 4 team REALLY stepped in it.

http://jeffgluck.com/nascar-kevin-harvick-illegal-spoiler-penalty/
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one has to wonder, I am sure the company that makes these spoilers puts their company name stamped or marked somewhere on the spoiler. does that mean SHR forged the manufacturer's logo and printing to make it look like a richardson spoiler?? that would be interesting. We should also look at some video and stills of the car. I really would like to know how far the right offset was. YES in this case more blade out in the air would be way better. The spoilers they are running so so short these days. Any extra hanging to the right is going to be a pretty big deal. I bet .5" would make a noticeable difference.
 
Wow. If reports are true, and SHR did in fact “make” a shenaniganed copy of the approved spoiler....

That’s big time. IMO I’m surprised they didn’t get Waltrip’d over it.
 
TexasRaceLady said:
Who would think that this was a good idea this close to the end of the season?
This was a colossally stupid action by somebody.
If I was Tony, there would be heads rolling.


That's what I'd like to know, too.
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TRL, you would seriously fire Cheddar and Rodney? No you wouldn't.
StandOnIt said:
Old Man is back on the box
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Old Man, who is in charge of producing identical SHR cars goes to the box? It just keeps getting better.
:XXROFL::XXROFL::XXROFL::XXROFL:
StandOnIt said:
cue the Rev :D
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:eek: .....but, but, but, but......
Just a couple of weeks ago, Rodney was on the NASCAR Channel praising the sanctioning body for its enforcement of the rules. We all know what Harvick is, but Rodney is just savage. Seems to be a nice guy who would slit your throat for a victory. Jesus, his driver had at least a tenth on the field (maybe) in a legal car I bet, but Rodney wanted world domination. I ****** love it. What a winner.

I truly believe that this is the stuff NASCAR used to sweep under the rug, and the sport was better for it. For whatever reason, society has turned into this rule follower candy ass type of world obsessed with what is "fair." So, go ahead and spend millions trying to stop this. Let's enhance the OSS, and spend even more. Let's DQ cars. Send them home. Hell yeah, that will fill up the stands. This is the type of thing that should have been handled behind closed doors with a "You do this again, and we will drop the hammer." Instead, we get this ****. I hate it. NASCAR will never get a system to stop this. Either stop trying, or just go spec and watch the series die. Complete idiocy. I have been listening to the complete horse**** that KB's Championship has an asterisk. Well, it looks like the 4 will have a bigger one. Guess we found out where Harvick found two tenths.
Charlie Spencer said:
You may well have stated that, but I wasn't replying to you. Call it what you want. My response to Snappy D remains the same: no one responsible is getting fired from SHR over this infraction.
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Because they are all responsible. What are you going to do, shut the team down?
TexasRaceLady said:
I would say that passing off an in-house manufactured spoiler as a regulation one is really out of bounds.
I would hope that next year, taking a win or handing out a "did not finish" is warranted for such egregious breaking
of the rules.
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It won't stop it, and if you make the rules so harsh that you start parking cars, it will really piss off the 10 people who come to the races. Unleash the engineers, and let the strongest survive. This cannot and will not be stopped. The only solution is to give in.
 
Revman said:
Just a couple of weeks ago, Rodney was on the NASCAR Channel praising the sanctioning body for its enforcement of the rules. We all know what Harvick is, but Rodney is just savage. Seems to be a nice guy who would slit your throat for a victory. Jesus, his driver had at least a tenth on the field (maybe) in a legal car I bet, but Rodney wanted world domination. I ******* love it. What a winner.

I truly believe that this is the stuff NASCAR used to sweep under the rug, and the sport was better for it. For whatever reason, society has turned into this rule follower candy ass type of world obsessed with what is "fair." So, go ahead and spend millions trying to stop this. Let's enhance the OSS, and spend even more. Let's DQ cars. Send them home. Hell yeah, that will fill up the stands. This is the type of thing that should have been handled behind closed doors with a "You do this again, and we will drop the hammer." Instead, we get this sh!t. I hate it. NASCAR will never get a system to stop this. Either stop trying, or just go spec and watch the series die. Complete idiocy. I have been listening to the complete horse**** that KB's Championship has an asterisk. Well, it looks like the 4 will have a bigger one.. Guess we found out where Harvick found two tenths.
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Nailed it.
 
Revman said:
Just a couple of weeks ago, Rodney was on the NASCAR Channel praising the sanctioning body for its enforcement of the rules. We all know what Harvick is, but Rodney is just savage. Seems to be a nice guy who would slit your throat for a victory. Jesus, his driver had at least a tenth on the field (maybe) in a legal car I bet, but Rodney wanted world domination. I ******* love it. What a winner.

I truly believe that this is the stuff NASCAR used to sweep under the rug, and the sport was better for it. For whatever reason, society has turned into this rule follower candy ass type of world obsessed with what is "fair." So, go ahead and spend millions trying to stop this. Let's enhance the OSS, and spend even more. Let's DQ cars. Send them home. Hell yeah, that will fill up the stands. This is the type of thing that should have been handled behind closed doors with a "You do this again, and we will drop the hammer." Instead, we get this sh!t. I hate it. NASCAR will never get a system to stop this. Either stop trying, or just go spec and watch the series die. Complete idiocy. I have been listening to the complete horse**** that KB's Championship has an asterisk. Well, it looks like the 4 will have a bigger one. You are a complete idiot to think that Rodney introduced this just last week. Guess we found out where Harvick found two tenths.
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Need to move out of the 60's would be my advice. The world's communications and inspection systems have changed. Or be aware of what the rest of the racing industry does to combat illegal parts. No win, no points, no trophy. It is a no brainer about passing tech at the start of the race. Most fans have the same thoughts as 4 car owner Stewart have
Stewart unleashed a blunt missive.

“I still don’t understand why we have to worry about failing three times,” he said. “Bring your car, roll it through tech, you either pass or you don’t. I don’t know why we screw around, jack around with one, two, three times. It’s ridiculous to me.

“Only series in the world where you get to go through tech three times and fail twice, they still let you go through a third time. We got to figure it out. Got to make it simpler than this. Shouldn’t be this difficult.

“Half the time you don’t know what the penalty is supposed to be. I’m a car owner and I don’t know what the penalty is supposed to be. As a fan, I don’t know how the fans can keep up with it either. If you start rolling cars through one time, they don’t pass, they go to the back, I bet you there would be a lot less cars fail tech the next week.
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/11/06/long-tony-stewart-suggests-way-to-change-nascar-inspections/
 
StandOnIt said:
what does empty seats have anything to do with teching cars?:confused:
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A lot....you start disqualifying top tier drivers for infractions, sitting them the next week, watch how many fans Don't come back because their favorite driver isn't running the next race. Simple logic there dude.
 
Revman said:
Old Man, who is in charge of producing identical SHR cars goes to the box? It just keeps getting better.

:XXROFL::XXROFL::XXROFL::XXROFL:
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The car chief for the 4 at Phoenix is the person in charge of setups for the whole team and the cars for Phoenix were setup by Childers and the car chief at Texas before the penalty FWIW.
 
So Nascar considered a level 2, 75 point penalty and decided against it as not to make it to hard for Harvick to make it to Homestead. I am no detective but I would venture this has been done not only for this year but in prior years also. If that is the case this penalty is a joke. If this had been Carl Long he would have been kicked out of racing. Maybe without letting the cat out of the bag, say nothing about the infraction, when Stuart Haas arrives at Phoenix, unbolt all 4 spoilers if they are offset and in house spoilers, send them home. Nascar would have known if it was company wide or not. In my opinion Nascar made it as easy on the team as possible.
 
hidesert cowboy said:
couple observations. notice how the 4 car has been out to lunch the last few races. lets just say not really tearing it up. I think they saved this for the texas race gambling on getting away with it. Also notice how the 4 car isn't setting the fastest time in practice. Then the race comes along and they pull a second on the second place car in 3 laps. Your left wondering, ummm 3 tenths a lap huh? where was that during practice. The 4 car has something. I keep wondering if HMS thinks and wonders when are these guys gonna get caught, then we will be faster than they are because we developed something different.
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The 4 sandbags until the flag drops, probably hoping nobody notices that his car is a quarter a second faster than anything else.
 
Hawaii808 said:
Oh the irony if this penalty keeps the #4 out of the final four and the #41 slips in past them. Then maybe win at Homestead and a "Bye Felicia" for SHR.
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If the penalty was truly severe enough the 41 would be in pretty comfortably right now. Just listened to Scott Miller's teleconference on my way to work and the 40 points was the max the rules allowed. Harvick keeps the 16 stage points, or some such, so instead of being out he's now 3 up on 41 and 17 up on the 9.
 
Why not re calibrate the OSS to pick points on the spoiler and measure it. If it can tell a body panel is off by a few thousands of a inch the spoiler should be a no brainer. Especially as someone earlier mentioned the whole garage knew it was not being checked
 
StandOnIt said:
Harvick was killing them in turn 1 and 2. the toughest two turns on the track. Mo grip. Spoiler was giving him more side force, doesn't take much. These guys are helping with the fine tuning the OSS inspection machines.
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Everybody was flipping out last year over the added downforce of a piece of tape on the 24 spoiler. The 4 team skewed the ENTIRE SPOILER mounting by "between 200 and 300 thousandths" according to Miller. I like how they use "thousandths" so that people will think it's tiny, but that's a quarter to a third of an inch. It's massive in the aero game. Couple that with the added black on the rear of the livery...
 
Is the elephant in the room gambling? If the race results are official then people expect to be paid for any and all wagers they make. People in Vegas or at track betting locations are not going to hold their tickets for 4 days to be paid. Many of them would no longer be in that area to be paid. At the same time, the casinos/track betting centers that take bets aren’t going to be happy when the guy who came in second suddenly becomes the official winner of a race the Thursday after a race inspection. It would be a nightmare for them and legal issues would no doubt start.
 
Towmater said:
Is the elephant in the room gambling? If the race results are official then people expect to be paid for any and all wagers they make. People in Vegas or at track betting locations are not going to hold their tickets for 4 days to be paid. Many of them would no longer be in that area to be paid. At the same time, the casinos/track betting centers that take bets aren’t going to be happy when the guy who came in second suddenly becomes the official winner of a race the Thursday after a race inspection. It would be a nightmare for them and legal issues would no doubt start.
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A darn good point that I frankly had not considered.
 
Whiskyb said:
Why not re calibrate the OSS to pick points on the spoiler and measure it. If it can tell a body panel is off by a few thousands of a inch the spoiler should be a no brainer. Especially as someone earlier mentioned the whole garage knew it was not being checked
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Someone smarter than me is going to have to explain how this laser system cannot detect a body panel out of position, specifically the spoiler in this case.
 
Wrangler1 said:
Someone smarter than me is going to have to explain how this laser system cannot detect a body panel out of position, specifically the spoiler in this case.
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Bob Pockrass‏Verified account @bobpockrass
Scott Miller on what they check at the track and why it wasn’t noticed during tech at the track prior to the race. NASCAR will change procedure and take spoilers off the cars this weekend:

DrejAqMU0AAebbS.jpg
 
Dr_B_UNC said:
Everybody was flipping out last year over the added downforce of a piece of tape on the 24 spoiler. The 4 team skewed the ENTIRE SPOILER mounting by "between 200 and 300 thousandths" according to Miller. I like how they use "thousandths" so that people will think it's tiny, but that's a quarter to a third of an inch. It's massive in the aero game. Couple that with the added black on the rear of the livery...
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decimal inch scale. 200 thousands or .2 tenths is close to 13/64th's = .201325. .3 is close to 19/64 th's =.296875. Decimal inch scale as you can tell is a more accurate way of measuring tolerances. Racecars/engineering seldom use fractional inch scale.
 
Harvick will be fine, his best track (statistically) is up next. He'll make the final 4 anyway.
 
These people tested the small offset in a rolling-floor wind tunnel in Charlotte ... the one owned by Gene Haas.

They compared the vertical wheel load data derived to data produced with the spoiler in the legal position and fed the new data into their sims and shaker rig in order to produce corrected information for use in set-up and new engineering notes to use at the track. All of this to maximize the grip available at the tire contact patches.

Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?
 
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gnomesayin said:
The culture of NASCAR and.a lot of racing is such that it is a given that teams are always pushing the boundaries as much as the can. There are the rules as written, and there is rules enforcement, which are separate. For instance, if the pit road speed limit is 45 MPH, and NASCAR let's it be known there is a 5 MPH tolerance, teams will go 50, then 51, then 52, until they are penalized. If a rule states 2 inches with an 1/8" tolerance, what is the rule in practice? If a rule states a part should remain rigid and not flex, teams will figure how much flex they can get away with. That's the game.

There are a bunch of possible real world analogies to explain. If I get away with speeding down the interstate every day for a month, but then get a speeding ticket for going 63 in a 55 the next day, that doesn't harm the credibility of the state patrol because I didn't get caught all of the other times.
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I agree. Teams have always played with the limits of the rules and they always will. It takes NASCAR time to discover what teams are doing to circumvent the rules. The teams write the rule book when NASCAR discovers their innovations.
 
Here's a question, If Harvick wins the trophy does he get an asterisk next to his name since he has been caught cheating this year?
 
StandOnIt said:
The car chief for the 4 at Phoenix is the person in charge of setups for the whole team and the cars for Phoenix were setup by Childers and the car chief at Texas before the penalty FWIW.
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This isn't a set up issue.
 
StandOnIt said:
Need to move out of the 60's would be my advice. The world's communications and inspection systems have changed. Or be aware of what the rest of the racing industry does to combat illegal parts. No win, no points, no trophy. It is a no brainer about passing tech at the start of the race. Most fans have the same thoughts as 4 car owner Stewart have
Stewart unleashed a blunt missive.

“I still don’t understand why we have to worry about failing three times,” he said. “Bring your car, roll it through tech, you either pass or you don’t. I don’t know why we screw around, jack around with one, two, three times. It’s ridiculous to me.

“Only series in the world where you get to go through tech three times and fail twice, they still let you go through a third time. We got to figure it out. Got to make it simpler than this. Shouldn’t be this difficult.

“Half the time you don’t know what the penalty is supposed to be. I’m a car owner and I don’t know what the penalty is supposed to be. As a fan, I don’t know how the fans can keep up with it either. If you start rolling cars through one time, they don’t pass, they go to the back, I bet you there would be a lot less cars fail tech the next week.
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/11/06/long-tony-stewart-suggests-way-to-change-nascar-inspections/
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You bring the big hammer, you will have 5 fans in the stands instead of 10. This isn't Saturday night short track, and it never will be no matter how much Larson would like it.
 
Revman said:
You bring the big hammer, you will have 5 fans in the stands instead of 10. This isn't Saturday night short track, and it never will be no matter how much Larson would like it.
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seems to work just fine all over the world. And that is what they are talking about next year.The fans you are so concerned about are demanding it.
 
Rodney Narrative #1: This wasn't a performance advantage
Rodney Narrative #2: We are human. We make mistakes
Rodney Narrative #3: We will fight back. Kevin is a fighter.
Rodney Narrative #4: There is no quit in this team
Rodney Narrative #5: NASCAR does a great job

Rodney might be the most interesting dude in the garage.
 
StandOnIt said:
seems to work just fine all over the world. And that is what they are talking about next year.The fans you are so concerned about are demanding it.
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The hell they are. NASCAR fans don't know what the hell they want. There are as many excuses for the empty seats as there are fans who aren't sitting in them.
 
StandOnIt said:
what is it then, you seemed really happy about it with your numerous rolling heads
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I am not happy about any of this ****. I find it completely stupid that the guy who is largely responsible for all of this takes the place of the guy who okay'ed it. Comical. This is a car construction issue of which Mr. Old Man has been given credit for his consistency. IMO it would be a set up issue if Rodney had several mounting points to choose from, and the Car Chief carried out the order.
 
As for next year, changes could be coming to the penalties for various inspection infractions.
“We’re looking at the whole deterrence model and trying to review that over the winter and possibly put more teeth in it, because yeah, I think we’re getting into borderline ridiculous territory,” Miller said.
“We’ve heard the fans kind of call out for, why don’t you disqualify the offending car, and I mean, that’s actually a topic of discussion along with many other things related to the deterrence model.
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/1...ous-nascar-will-consider-harsher-punishments/
 
I might be late to the party asking this question.
But why does Harvick get to keep the stage points he earned?
So Nascar is saying the car was legal for the first two stages and then the team moved the spoiler to win the race. And thus was illegal and needed to lose points.
And then Nascar's BS L1 point system where the penalty range is 10 to 40 points. To me that would be like the NFL saying holding this time is 10 yards and then holding this time is 20 yards. What?
 
StandOnIt said:
As for next year, changes could be coming to the penalties for various inspection infractions.
“We’re looking at the whole deterrence model and trying to review that over the winter and possibly put more teeth in it, because yeah, I think we’re getting into borderline ridiculous territory,” Miller said.
“We’ve heard the fans kind of call out for, why don’t you disqualify the offending car, and I mean, that’s actually a topic of discussion along with many other things related to the deterrence model.
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/1...ous-nascar-will-consider-harsher-punishments/
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We heard that **** with the L1 L2 or whatever in the hell they call it....Not too long ago that was all new.....and you have everything NASCAR is because the idiots running the show listen to the fraction of the fanbase that tweets ****. Kind of like defining what fans want by listening to the Chicky Nugget Club here. They have NEVER learned how to hear the fanbase--particularly in the era of communications we are in. Terrible. You start parking people or stripping wins after the fact, you will destroy this series if it isn't gone already. **** this.
 
This right here:

“I still don’t understand why we have to worry about failing three times,” he said. “Bring your car, roll it through tech, you either pass or you don’t. I don’t know why we screw around, jack around with one, two, three times. It’s ridiculous to me..."

I agree. Make it a it is or it isn't. If it ain't then pack it up and go home.
 
Revman said:
We heard that sh!t with the L1 L2 or whatever in the hell they call it....Not too long ago that was all new.....and you have everything NASCAR is because the idiots running the show listen to the fraction of the fanbase that tweets sh!t. Kind of like defining what fans want by listening to the Chicky Nugget Club here. They have NEVER learned how to hear the fanbase--particularly in the era of communications we are in. Terrible. You start parking people or stripping wins after the fact, you will destroy this series if it isn't gone already. **** this.
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saved the last little bit for ya just makin sure you get it all out. Probably need to get the ok from the RTA, the manufacturers, and the sponsors, before they can make a move.

“With any of those, there’s a lot of things to work through and a lot of things to consider, especially when you kind of get to the disqualification level or something like that. You know, like there’s a lot of knockoff effects from that as to how the rest of the field shakes out and all that.
“But certainly points, deterrence models, fines, suspensions, all that stuff is always on our plate during the winter. We always review what has happened in the current race season and always are looking to improve that process.”
https://nascar.nbcsports.com/2018/1...ous-nascar-will-consider-harsher-punishments/
 
NASCAR finds this egregious but has no problem with driver side doos flexing at speed (which you can see on TV).

Don’t forget “fans need to leave the track knowing who won the race”.

Setting this sport up for ripping a championship away from a team days after celebrating.
 
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