What Do you Think of the New Package?

Mispeedway15

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I mentioned this before but perhaps NASCAR adding downforce means there is a sweet spot where we don’t have enough of it, and other forms of racing have too much of it.

IMO low downforce sounds badass and having the car on the rails is cool, but it led to absolutely terrible racing on anything over a mile in length. While we did have some good races, the race ratings the last few years have been absolutely horrible at times. It is noticeable how much better the 1.5 tracks have been which is very important considering the fans clamored for them in the 80s.

I understand there are a more purists on this site but the hate of high downforce packages is ridiculous. Our sport was hemorrhaging fans at unbelievable rates, and now we have seen that stop.

You guys just have to understand from an engineering perspective high power/low downforce means passing is nearly impossible unless you have the car on ovals because the racing line narrows as does the window of opportunity because the cars can accelerate so easily off the corners. That led to 3 guys and Penske absolutely blowing the doors off the series last season
 

DUN24

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My boy won but the racing was affected negatively this year vs years past.
 

StandOnIt

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I mentioned this before but perhaps NASCAR adding downforce means there is a sweet spot where we don’t have enough of it, and other forms of racing have too much of it.

IMO low downforce sounds badass and having the car on the rails is cool, but it led to absolutely terrible racing on anything over a mile in length. While we did have some good races, the race ratings the last few years have been absolutely horrible at times. It is noticeable how much better the 1.5 tracks have been which is very important considering the fans clamored for them in the 80s.

I understand there are a more purists on this site but the hate of high downforce packages is ridiculous. Our sport was hemorrhaging fans at unbelievable rates, and now we have seen that stop.

You guys just have to understand from an engineering perspective high power/low downforce means passing is nearly impossible unless you have the car on ovals because the racing line narrows as does the window of opportunity because the cars can accelerate so easily off the corners. That led to 3 guys and Penske absolutely blowing the doors off the series last season
Yep we had pretty much an endless series of "Dovers" no matter what track they were racing on. It's fine to have a track or two that are pretty much single lane almost impossible to pass, but those days are gone at the present time. Many don't know that it was the owners that don't want to have to pay for more aero testing if they tweak the current short track package so soon to the new car in 2021 that all of them are going full bore on developing. BTW the flatfooters and the "Purists" should make a note that the pole sitter and second place qualifier broke the track record, and the race, statistically matched the numbers for every package they had since 2014, low high HP downforce, whatever. See post #1605 posted below the childish graphics **** posts
 

jaqua19

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Dover 2 stats
You always post this. And I get it. It looks good statistically. But you have to try to realize that these statistics don't reflect the complaints about the car that fans and a lot of drivers have.

There's a lot of passing on restarts. They are doing something right. Those passing numbers would be even greater if it wasn't so difficult to pass.

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StandOnIt

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You always post this. And I get it. It looks good statistically. But you have to try to realize that these statistics don't reflect the complaints about the car that fans and a lot of drivers have.

There's a lot of passing on restarts. They are doing something right. Those passing numbers would be even greater if it wasn't so difficult to pass.

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and what you don't understand or don't care too is that that track doesn't allow for a passing jamboree no matter what the packages is. Did you see the point about the owners not wanting the car changed? So next year unless they somehow are able to change the short track package the same yah who's will be complaining about the same thing, It changes weekly from too slow to can't pass when the speeds are up..yawn
 

Ventisca

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Jimmie is not a good witness -- he is on the outside looking in. Even the Booth joked about him not being used to his non-Playoff status as Playoff drivers race him (and others) hard.

Danielle Trotta called him "Spicy" after his comment on Brad.

And is it really genuine? He stays classy and corporate for 16 Seasons -- then starts firing up the anarchy once he realizes his performance of the past two years is the new norm.
 

StandOnIt

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Jimmie is not a good witness -- he is on the outside looking in. Even the Booth joked about him not being used to his non-Playoff status as Playoff drivers race him (and others) hard.

Danielle Trotta called him "Spicy" after his comment on Brad.

And is it really genuine? He stays classy and corporate for 16 Seasons -- then starts firing up the anarchy once he realizes his performance of the past two years is the new norm.
I thought the same thing, and he was playing the media because of his reduced status. The guy has been at that track for years and that place has never been known for passing, but is hard on drivers and equipment no matter what he or anybody else comes up with IMO. I look at it as he HAD a fast car but what did he so with it? see Bowman's finish position.
 

Kiante

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I thought the same thing, and he was playing the media because of his reduced status. The guy has been at that track for years and that place has never been known for passing, but is hard on drivers and equipment no matter what he or anybody else comes up with IMO. I look at it as he HAD a fast car but what did he so with it? see Bowman's finish position.
Eh, I don't have a problem with it. Of course this tweet has a bit of bitterness to it, his teammates adjusted to the high-downforce bit more than Johnson. Anyone would be upset and now that he's speaking his mind. Actually, I think he's been tweeting for sometime his feelings, so I don't have an issue. He's had bad luck and he strung together some good finishes with good cars, first consecutive strong of top 10s in a while.

He's keeping himself fired up, its genuine feelings IMO. I like it when guys are honest and probably like many other drivers with this deal, some like it and some don't. The old man is starting to hit on some of these setups, he could pose as an issue for the rest of the season going into 2020. Many people considering him washed or done for this year, it rubs off on some after while. I feel as if this is feelings held back for a while.
 

DUN24

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and what you don't understand or don't care too is that that track doesn't allow for a passing jamboree no matter what the packages is.
Exactly. They castrated the cars for nothing.(saying for the 17,172nd time)
 

jaqua19

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and what you don't understand or don't care too is that that track doesn't allow for a passing jamboree no matter what the packages is. Did you see the point about the owners not wanting the car changed? So next year unless they somehow are able to change the short track package the same yah who's will be complaining about the same thing, It changes weekly from too slow to can't pass when the speeds are up..yawn
The issue is bigger than this single track,so of course I don't care about that. Some tracks don't produce great racing, you are indeed right. But there are still inherent issues with this current package. Yes, I know the old cars/old racing won't be coming back. Yes, the best thing to do is enjoy the racing for what it is, and move forward with it.

That said, I don't think yesterday's race was awful. It was harder to pass than in year past here, but it wasn't bad.

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Turtle84

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You always post this. And I get it. It looks good statistically. But you have to try to realize that these statistics don't reflect the complaints about the car that fans and a lot of drivers have.

There's a lot of passing on restarts. They are doing something right. Those passing numbers would be even greater if it wasn't so difficult to pass.

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That's the type of evidence Steve Phelps and O'Donnell cling to. If that tells you anything...
 

Turtle84

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and what you don't understand or don't care too is that that track doesn't allow for a passing jamboree no matter what the packages is. Did you see the point about the owners not wanting the car changed? So next year unless they somehow are able to change the short track package the same yah who's will be complaining about the same thing, It changes weekly from too slow to can't pass when the speeds are up..yawn
I can respect "doesn't allow for a passing jamboree" compared to some of the other tracks, but there has without a doubt been better packages with better pass ability at Dover. When your 7-time champion is saying something, it might be time to consider improving some things, instead of head down saying everything is fine and numbers are up looking at stat sheets instead of the actual race.
 

StandOnIt

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I can respect "doesn't allow for a passing jamboree" compared to some of the other tracks, but there has without a doubt been better packages with better pass ability at Dover. When your 7-time champion is saying something, it might be time to consider improving some things, instead of head down saying everything is fine and numbers are up looking at stat sheets instead of the actual race.
If you say so. again watching the attendance and ratings go up pretty much trumps a few who are dissatisfied.
 

DUN24

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love the drama bud. FYI they have 750 HP on the smaller tracks and set lap records in qualifying for Dover.
I know you do. You have more posts on the subject than anyone.

Also, if I want to watch low horsepower downforce monsters, I watch IndyCar. Talk about impressive lap times...
 

StandOnIt

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I know you do. You have more posts on the subject than anyone.

Also, if I want to watch low horsepower downforce monsters, I watch IndyCar. Talk about impressive lap times...
If a poster such as yourself would get your B.S. straight, this week at Dega the castrated crack would work along with flat footed, gimmick, and the other B.S. not last week when they had 750 HP and were setting lap records.
 

DUN24

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If a poster such as yourself would get your B.S. straight, this week at Dega the castrated crack would work along with flat footed, gimmick, and the other B.S. not last week when they had 750 HP and were setting lap records.
Apples and oranges. But for the sake of conversation, forget anything about horsepower. Lap records due to on-throttle time and air manipulation that causes cars to tighten up within 10 lengths instead of what used to be 3-5 at every intermediate track is the issue at hand.
 

jaqua19

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I can respect "doesn't allow for a passing jamboree" compared to some of the other tracks, but there has without a doubt been better packages with better pass ability at Dover. When your 7-time champion is saying something, it might be time to consider improving some things, instead of head down saying everything is fine and numbers are up looking at stat sheets instead of the actual race.
Of course good passing numbers are exciting, as are the upticks in ratings. But it doesn't simply nullify the common complaint about the car, and the evident difficulties drivers have passing.

"Well fans like it, and the stats show there is still a lot of passing" so does that mean everyone who complains is delusional? Of course it's great that more fans are tuning in, and passing numbers are up. But pointing to one single statistic that doesn't provide context to reach or disprove a conclusion and then sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't really prove anything. If I used that methodology when I was a research assistant (albeit short term), I would have been thrown out.

What that statastic does show is that the increase in scores in that particular data set does not corelate with the opinions of fans or a portion of drivers on the racing. So how do you make bring that together?

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StandOnIt

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blah blah blah, complainers do what they do and that is pretty much all that they do. The same ones will be complaining about the new car, some already are ^^ and they haven't seen it run a lap yet. (so much for fingers in the ear) Much the same as the package..so as the world turns. Most are ignorant of the role the track plays in the equation, or that aero is never going away and is an important factor in both the competition and how drivers use it to gain advantage. No car design is going to go "poof" and it all disappears, every track is racy and suits everybodies opinion on how that equates. So complainers will always find something to complain about, lets face it, they and aero have much in common. :D
 

jaqua19

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blah blah blah, complainers do what they do and that is pretty much all that they do. The same ones will be complaining about the new car, some already are ^^ and they haven't seen it run a lap yet. (so much for fingers in the ear) Much the same as the package..so as the world turns. Most are ignorant of the role the track plays in the equation, or that aero is never going away and is an important factor in both the competition and how drivers use it to gain advantage. No car design is going to go "poof" and it all disappears, every track is racy and suits everybodies opinion on how that equates. So complainers will always find something to complain about, lets face it, they and aero have much in common. :D
Some will complain. Some want to see a step in the right direction. "Poof" won't happen, obviously. As for the Gen 7, well... We don't even know what it looks like so I'll hold judgement on that. Maybe..just maybe some people simply don't like the racing as it is right now.. maybe some people loved it, but don't like it right now. Wild, huh? ;)

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AuzGrams

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The 550/high downforce package is fine on all the 1.5 mile tracks IMO.

I've found the 750/high downforce to be kinda mediocre.

Also Pocono & Michigan/Fontana are tracks built on speed and should be part of a 750 package.
 

Team Penske

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blah blah blah, complainers do what they do and that is pretty much all that they do. The same ones will be complaining about the new car, some already are ^^ and they haven't seen it run a lap yet. (so much for fingers in the ear) Much the same as the package..so as the world turns. Most are ignorant of the role the track plays in the equation, or that aero is never going away and is an important factor in both the competition and how drivers use it to gain advantage. No car design is going to go "poof" and it all disappears, every track is racy and suits everybodies opinion on how that equates. So complainers will always find something to complain about, lets face it, they and aero have much in common. :D
I was just thinking of the "chuckwagon races" at the "Calgary Stampede" this year. Many horses died in accidents or had to be put down this year. I was wondering if they were going to cut the horse power next season or build newer wagons. I guess it will all come down to the animal activists reaction in the off season. Maybe they will suspend some overly aggressive drivers. :sarcasm:
 

Acs

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Say what you want about this type of package on other tracks, but I think the big winner has been the 4 superspeedway races. Neither inside nor outside lines are able to dominate and now we're even seeing a bit of the tandem return!
 

bigspud

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Say what you want about this type of package on other tracks, but I think the big winner has been the 4 superspeedway races. Neither inside nor outside lines are able to dominate and now we're even seeing a bit of the tandem return!
yes its better,
get rid of taper spacer,
2ft rear spoiler
better engine cooling
bigger catch fence
 

jaqua19

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Say what you want about this type of package on other tracks, but I think the big winner has been the 4 superspeedway races. Neither inside nor outside lines are able to dominate and now we're even seeing a bit of the tandem return!
I was thinking this. But I also think it has a lot to do with the format as well. Drivers have incentive to be racing up front. I think that is a bigger contributor

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Turtle84

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Say what you want about this type of package on other tracks, but I think the big winner has been the 4 superspeedway races. Neither inside nor outside lines are able to dominate and now we're even seeing a bit of the tandem return!
The plate races have been good imo.
 

RowdyBusch

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Nothing has changed on this forum since the announcement last year. The same two people love it and make up for 40% of the thread's posts, and every actual racing fan knew it was junk from the get-go. There will be another gimmick, and another one, and another one until the ratings hit 0.1. (they're not far off)
 

AuzGrams

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Nothing has changed on this forum since the announcement last year. The same two people love it and make up for 40% of the thread's posts, and every actual racing fan knew it was junk from the get-go. There will be another gimmick, and another one, and another one until the ratings hit 0.1. (they're not far off)
Actually the ratings have been flat or up 2% this year.
 
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