What Do you Think of the New Package?

yep there is plenty out there to watch and or follow besides the Cup series. It should be evident by now to even the most casual Cup fan the direction the series is heading and is going to continue in that direction.
 
StandOnIt said:
It has been interesting to see Nascar's solutions to the racing, how they were able to improve their 1.5 tracks that were the whipping post for many to some of the best racing in years. They have some work to do on the smaller tracks but they are handcuffed with being able to make changes on the fly because of the manufacturers. I wonder what the changes will be to the cars next year. I think the hoods and the splitter are going to get changes, but I think more changes will probably come about.
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I think they will have to go easy in anticipation of the new car coming. Every change as you know has R&D written all over it, and with that, we are talking $. I think that hood and splitter will be the extent of it, really.
 
Revman said:
Every change as you know has R&D written all over it, and with that, we are talking $. I think that hood and splitter will be the extent of it, really.
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Yup, but those NASCAR Blades look like somebody "engineered" it out of a refrigerator cardboard shipping box using a utility knife; until they agreed on the latest shape and dimensions. Then grabbed some basic material to fabricate the "approved" product -- compared to F1 and Indy Car wings and things.
 
Ventisca said:
Yup, but those NASCAR Blades look like somebody "engineered" it out of a refrigerator cardboard shipping box using a utility knife; until they agreed on the latest shape and dimensions. Then grabbed some basic material to fabricate the "approved" product -- compared to F1 and Indy Car wings and things.
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They are so freakin' tall!
 
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Kept his crew from falling off.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
The package we had the last few years was badass, but made passing almost impossible on 1.5’s bc the engineering has just became too good. These guys were regularly hitting 200 and passing was so so tough...
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Balderdash! (Ha, probably the first time I've ever written that word.)

With last year's higher horsepower and low downforce/low drag, it was very doable for a faster car to pass a slower one. There were many, many examples of fast cars relegated to the tail of the pack, and then slicing through to the front by passing. This year it is much easier for a slower leader to keep a quicker pursuer behind... just feed him a steady diet of dirty air.

The "problem" with last years racing, for those who regard it as a problem, was that it was generally impossible for a slower car to pass a faster one. Personally, I don't see that as a problem at all... that's how racing is supposed to work. This year, the drag penalty on the lead car means the pursuers stay close but stay behind. Most of the passes for the lead occur immediately after restarts, or during green flag pit cycles.

The other problem last year was that two teams got the new rules figured out quickly, and their three elite drivers dominated the first half of the season. Gibbs and SHR... Harvick, Busch, Truex... the "Big Three." Shame on Hendrick and Ganassi and Penske for being slow to figure it out, but by the second half of the year they did get it figured out. And we had many great races that were *both* highly competitive *and* genuine tests of driving skill. And that is what I find entertaining.
 
LewTheShoe said:
Balderdash! (Ha, probably the first time I've ever written that word.)
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Yep. I would argue that it is misleading to use raw loop data to assess passing ability and especially racing quality. A bunch of random shuffling back and forth during the crazy restarts for a couple laps is not what excites or impresses me.

The intuitive way to compare the low downforce racing of 2017 and 2018 to the high downforce racing of 2019 is to consider the widespread comments this year from drivers and crew chiefs regarding the extreme importance of track position. Track position is always an important factor in all forms of racing, but all indications from the participants are that it has become much more important this season. Strategies are tilting toward gaining and maintaining track position at any cost. This does not speak to an increased ability for faster cars to make up ground through the field. It speaks to just the opposite, and the reality is rather obvious.
 
Loop data has been used for years. Track position has always been the utmost. Forgot the thousands spent for pit guns already?
 
Look what happened last night when Bowyer was leading. He held up the line with a slower car. As soon as he pitted, the guys behind him picked up speed, decreased lap times and were able to stretch it out a bit.
Something is very wrong from an aero standpoint if the leader can consistently hold up the faster cars behind him.
 
BobbyFord said:
Look what happened last night when Bowyer was leading. He held up the line with a slower car. As soon as he pitted, the guys behind him picked up speed, decreased lap times and were able to stretch it out a bit.
Something is very wrong from an aero standpoint if the leader can consistently hold up the faster cars behind him.
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been going on for years, the car out front taking away the air of another. What is different this year is passing for the lead. I wonder how that is being accomplished?
 
gnomesayin said:
Loop data, during its relatively short and evolving existence, has customarily been used by qualified analysts who understand its limitations. Not by executives and PR employees as fodder for a marketing campaign.
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almost 20 years worth they have been using loop data in Nascar. I guess that is short times for some
 
The problem is as I’ve said many times to any opponents of the changes, the ratings stopped falling. The low downforce did nothing to bring in new fans.

Last night at the race I was there with 8 people, 5 of which had never been to one. They all loved the tailgate scene and “how close the cars” seemed to stay. Got excited for cautions as that lead to restarts and were really glued the first and third stages.

I’ve always loved NASCAR but guys unfortunately if you allow a rules package to let someone run away from the field, so will your casual fans. Just as the NFL had to impose a ton of rules against the D, NASCAR had to do something
 
Loop data is good at a micro level where it can be used to produce a number of individual driver statistics. The Driver Rating, which maxes at 150 and incorporates a variety of figures, is an interesting one. At a macro level, it is utterly useless unless the vast amount of noise is accounted for. Very few, namely Andrew Maness, manage to do so successfully. It is not something that should be used to craft a narrative for a motor car race.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
The problem is as I’ve said many times to any opponents of the changes, the ratings stopped falling. The low downforce did nothing to bring in new fans.

Last night at the race I was there with 8 people, 5 of which had never been to one. They all loved the tailgate scene and “how close the cars” seemed to stay. Got excited for cautions as that lead to restarts and were really glued the first and third stages.

I’ve always loved NASCAR but guys unfortunately if you allow a rules package to let someone run away from the field, so will your casual fans. Just as the NFL had to impose a ton of rules against the D, NASCAR had to do something
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I don't buy it. The sport grew to it's height during a time where 5 cars were on the lead lap every week. They chased away the hardcore fan with format changes and car changes. It's just leveling off now.
 
Mispeedway15 said:
The problem is as I’ve said many times to any opponents of the changes, the ratings stopped falling. The low downforce did nothing to bring in new fans.
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High downforce hasn't either.

There have been a variety of race format and championship format changes in addition to significant driver retirements that have led to the ratings drop since the ratings plateau of 2010-2013. Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Dale Jr., playoffs, stages, you name it. This year is the first where there is a large degree of stability among those factors and it shows. When ratings drop again as Jimmie Johnson and Kevin Harvick retire it would likewise be wrong for me to suggest that the drop is wholly related to a sudden dislike for high drag and high downforce.
 
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By The Numbers: Kentucky Speedway’s Bar Was Low But The 2019 Package Blew Every Other Year Away
For fans, it ranks among the worst tracks for the same reasons plus the racing is usually abysmal. Before Saturday night’s race, no one would tie good racing and Kentucky Speedway together in the same sentence.
However, the 2019 high downforce package absolutely helped the show last night. This package was designed for races exactly like Kentucky. Tracks where passing was at a minimum and the races were generally complete duds, like the last 5 races at Kentucky heading into Saturday night. What we saw Saturday night was a lot of the same things we’ve seen this year at Chicagoland and Kansas, good racing. Manufactured or not the racing last night when the sun went down was way better than what we’ve seen before at Kentucky.

Saturday night’s race featured the most leaders, most green flag passes, and most quality passes since 2014. The quality passes is the real key here, that’s green flag passes in the Top 15. That’s huge to have that many. And while pit strategy and green flag stops certainly skew numbers based on the previous years most of the races featured one if not two green-flag stops.

One of the other big numbers to come out of Saturday night featured 7 drivers that led more than 15 laps. That’s huge! NASCAR needs parity, they’ve preached parity and while there were different strategies fans want to see other guys upfront. Daniel Suarez, Ricky Stenhouse, Clint Bowyer, and Ryan Newman were all part of that group. Those aren’t your regular names up there. A change in names at the front goes a long way in a fan’s brain.
 
I thought Kentucky was a little better than usual. My memory isn't the sharpest. 2015 was pretty good and 2016 had the fuel mileage ending which I remember.

They need to continue to work on this package at pretty much every non 1.5 mile track, which is my concern.
 
Ya wonder sometimes if Nascar fans can think for themselves. The talking heads are spinning the race, talking about aero this and that, and the twitters take it and run with it saying there is this huuuge aero problem. Never mind the record passing statistics, the number of different race leaders or the quality passing numbers. What I am being led to believe is that a good race has little or no passing but if the cars go fast for 400 or 500 miles with a driver starting on the pole, leading 174 laps and winning the race is the mark of a good racing contest. Sorry but this is one of the main reasons people are turning off the series. The numbers are climbing if anyone has noticed. Hopefully it and interest in the series will continue.
 
LewTheShoe said:
genuine tests of driving skill
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Your post is excellent. What does a "genuine test of driving skill" look like. I know what it sounds like....Driver comments, etc.; but what does it look like to the fans in the stands or watching on TV? It is important to note that I couldn't give a crap about what package we run as long as it keeps and brings people to the sport. I have no dog in this hunt, but I hear that a lot about this "driving skill" thing from drivers (particularly mine) and fans.
 
I'm sure this will gall some asses, but with a "was it a good race" last year of 23 and the year before of 27 something drastic needed to be done.
 
So many people talking about how it's easier for a slower car to stay out front of a faster car. Which to an extent is true.. however that is not NASCARs fault IMO.. there have been times (Joey at Michigan) where cars couldn't pass the leader but one or two cars could cut through traffic and get around the leader. It's on the teams to figure out how to make their cars do that. I said it that day and I'm sure it won't be the last time. Harvick caught up to Joey and couldn't get around him.. and people in the race thread said things like "cant wait to see Joey lose track position to show how dumb this package is" and sure enough when he did lose track position he was able to drive right back to the lead. It's not just about having the fastest car anymore.. it's about setting it up to pass in traffic..and we've seen that it IS possible no matter how many people want to whine and complain that it's not. People should stop blaming NASCAR and this new package for the faults in the teams'. If Joey could do it then every team can figure it out.. and they will eventually. That's when this package will truly shine IMO.
 
They are now talking about wider tires on the Gen-7.

We really are doubling down on this whole "IndyCar with fenders" thing. Let's make sure a cup car never breaks traction again.
 
I keep seeing "restarts are unbelievable", and that's it. Seriously guys? What is happening between restarts and the 5 laps following them that's keeping you entertained?

And stop posting these inflated passing stats for the love of God. You're probably getting 200 passes or more per restart thanks to all the teeter totter nonsense that goes on between scoring loops. That's impressive?
 
AdoubleU24 said:
I keep seeing "restarts are unbelievable", and that's it. Seriously guys? What is happening between restarts and the 5 laps following them that's keeping you entertained?

And stop posting these inflated passing stats for the love of God. You're probably getting 200 passes or more per restart thanks to all the teeter totter nonsense that goes on between scoring loops. That's impressive?
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how soon they forget the manipulating late race cautions for balloons and water bottles :p see post #1342, looks like you just might be in the 19th percentile.
 
FLRacingFan said:
High downforce hasn't either.

There have been a variety of race format and championship format changes in addition to significant driver retirements that have led to the ratings drop since the ratings plateau of 2010-2013. Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, Dale Jr., playoffs, stages, you name it. This year is the first where there is a large degree of stability among those factors and it shows. When ratings drop again as Jimmie Johnson and Kevin Harvick retire it would likewise be wrong for me to suggest that the drop is wholly related to a sudden dislike for high drag and high downforce.
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Yes, the sensible thing would be to stop clinging to the TV ratings concerns or attempting to tie them into the debate about quality or entertaining racing. They have very little to do with each other, especially in the short term. This bulwark will fade quickly. Ratings from Chicago were down slightly. Overnights from Kentucky, down slightly. Casual fans aren't flocking to the derided 1.5s to watch the fabled restart package. Nor would they if we got our way. People need to stop thinking about TV ratings and their personal idea of an entertaining race as related concepts if they want to have any hope of understanding what drives viewership of auto races and sporting events.

The bottom line, after we have the same old debate again, is that the claim that "high downforce and lower power is clearly the way of the future, so get on board or get lost" fails to convince, because recent history shows how often NASCAR and the networks can change their minds to try to sell something new. If you genuinely believed the low downforce era was bad for racing and harmed interest in the sport, the summer of 2017 when NASCAR was publicly doubling down must have been a very bleak time. Get back to me in 2023 and we'll see if they are still preaching the same line, and then we can have the conversation about whether those of us who oppose this direction should go away.
 
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gnomesayin said:
Yes, the sensible thing would be to stop clinging to the TV ratings concerns or attempting to tie them into the debate about quality or entertaining racing. They have very little to do with each other, especially in the short term. This bulwark will fade quickly. Ratings from Chicago were down slightly. Overnights from Kentucky, down slightly. Casual fans aren't flocking to the derided 1.5s to watch the fabled restart package. Nor would they if we got our way. People need to stop thinking about TV ratings and their personal idea of an entertaining race as related concepts if they want to have any hope of understanding what drives viewership of auto races and sporting events.

The bottom line, after we have the same old debate again, is that the claim that "high downforce and lower power is clearly the way of the future, so get on board or get lost" fails to convince, because recent history shows how often NASCAR ane the networks can change their minds to try to sell something new. If you genuinely believed the low downforce era was bad for racing and harmed interest in the sport, the summer of 2017 when NASCAR was publicly doubling down must have been a very bleak time. Get back to me in 2023 and we'll see if they are still preaching the same line, and then we can have the conversation about whether those of us who oppose this direction should go away.
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yeah keep fighting the good fight, you are doing a great job of us and them, when the majority of fans IMO didn't hate any package as you continue to portray. But many of us think the racing on the 1.5 tracks has been improved drastically and those are the tracks that needed it the most. What I can't get over is that the same haters dish and whine about the other tracks that are very similar to the races last year with very little passing and lead changes and the fastest most setup car usually wins unless they get passed in the pits. So they dish what they say was great last year. They are running faster than ever with the short track package, bumping track records WTF
 
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In a relative sense, who the hell cares if it is throttle down momentum racing? We still have the most talented drivers at the top of the standings so it isn't like Mickey Mouse wins these things. I know that many talk about the necessity for these cars to be hard to drive, but again, what does that look like? White gloves in the ****pit swatting flies? The case could be made that is what a poorly handling car looks like--I saw that with the low downforce and the high downforce stuff. Let's get past what this racing is or isn't....in a relative sense, it is another challenge for the teams to adapt to, and that is what NASCAR racing is to me.
 
STOP WHINING PEOPLE!!

NASCAR OWES US NOTHING!!

Its entertainment.. and it's been entertaining.

You're diluted sense of what it SHOULD be is an example of entitlement at it's best. Stop having this dream of what we should see every week and enjoy the fact that we get anything at all before the fans kill the sport we all love.

Mini rant over lol
 
NASCAR racing will be around as long as any of us, and isn't hanging by a thread and ready to perish if forum posters or Twitter users are too critical or mean to it. It was a strain of criticism that produced the current rules package. If you like it, I suppose you should be grateful that "something needed to drastically change" due to the dissatisfaction.

NASCAR owes us nothing and is owed nothing.
 
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BobbyFord said:
Look what happened last night when Bowyer was leading. He held up the line with a slower car. As soon as he pitted, the guys behind him picked up speed, decreased lap times and were able to stretch it out a bit.
Something is very wrong from an aero standpoint if the leader can consistently hold up the faster cars behind him.
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But they had glue :idunno: glue should have made the impossible happen :headbang:
 
gnomesayin said:
NASCAR racing will be around as long as any of us, and isn't hanging by a thread and ready to perish if forum posters or Twitter users are too critical or mean to it. It was a strain of criticism that produced the current rules package. If you like it, I suppose you should be grateful that "something needed to drastically change" due to the dissatisfaction.

NASCAR owes us nothing and is owed nothing.
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NASCAR owes us everything, we are consumers, we pay the bills. Everything revolves around the consumer
 
If NASCAR mandated spec car based on the early-mid 90s cars (Gen 4 as they call it now) with better driver safety and only a nose to differentiate the various makes how would you guys feel about it? It would come along with several rule changes to put adjustments back into each teams hands to let them set them up like they wanted too. One of those would be a minimum ride height to prevent them running right on the ground. I know they can't unlearn aero but maybe if something closer to an old brick was mandated it could be counter acted somewhat. It'd also get rid of fuel injection.

The goal would be to replicate the racing from that era and the cars themselves wouldn't look anything like a modern sedan. They'd just have Chevy/Ford/Yota on them. I know most aren't big fans of the CoT/spec car here but I wanted to see what kind of response this would get since it's my favorite era (well late 80s was good too..it's close).

I feel like if Dale hadn't died we probably would have ended up with a car like that in the mid-2000s. He was pushing for safer cars and NASCAR always listened to his input. Well knowing how Dale felt about the Gen 4 cars maybe he would have pushed them to develop something based off Gen 3 (80s/very early 90s). Perhaps a combination of what made Gen 3 and 4 good. I think that's where NASCAR should look for inspiration if they want to bring back the "good old days" and with modern inspection standards it would probably avoid the problems they were having with teams building the twisted sisters.

I just think it's unrealistic to expect a return to the Win on Sunday sell on Monday days. I also think most modern American and Toyota sedans don't look very good either. I don't know what this fascination is with having the huge grill on everything these days.
 
DUN24 said:
The current racing situation has proven to be dog****, so the apologists are now taking the 'stop whining you're lucky to watch anything' approach. Lmao
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I think some have a genuine fear that any and all criticism hurts the sport and any and all praise helps. I disagree, but I think a lot of is misplaced, not necesssarily disingenuous. Oddly, many company line loyalists have no problem disparaging the product of yesterday in an attempt to prop up today's. As soon as it becomes recent history, somehow it's kosher to talk about how terrible the race was last year and how each subsequent event is the best event ever at X.

That said, these folks should drop in on an F1 discussion sometime, or several other racing series I follow. Loyal and devoted fans can be absolutely scathing, and it doesn't spell the demise of anything. Spectator events are killed by a lack of interest, not the existence of critical interest.
 
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