When will we have another multitime champion? Hampered legacies of Kyle Busch and Kevin Harvick

Nitro Dude said:
It goes much deeper then that. They have been having problems with that class for a long time.
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Yeah, and it's a dirty shame. I grew up LOVING Pro Stock. One of the highlights of my life was getting a shop tour at Reher and Morrison a couple of years ago. Sadly, David and Bruce were not in the shop that day.:( I have been on the warpath with the NHRA since they let the Pro Stock cars get away from stock bodies. Those "doorstop" Camaros are an embarrassment.
 
For those of you in to this sort of thing, the link below shows how the points would have shaken out sans the playoffs....

https://racingnews.co/2018/11/20/2018-nascar-points-without-the-playoffs/

So, here are the past winners of the CouldaWouldaShoulda Cup, or the They Would Have Raced Different Cup, or whatever you wanna call it.

2004 - Jeff Gordon (5)
2005 - Tony Stewart (2)*
2006 - Jimmie Johnson*
2007 - Jeff Gordon (6)
2008 - Carl Edwards
2009 - Jimmie Johnson (2)*
2010 - Kevin Harvick
2011 - Carl Edwards (2)
2012 - Brad Keselowski*
2013 - Jimmie Johnson (3)*
2014 - Jeff Gordon (7)
2015 - Kevin Harvick (2)
2016 - Kevin Harvick (3)
2017 - Martin Truex, Jr.*
2018 - Kyle Busch

*actually won that year’s championship
 
ToyYoda said:
For those of you in to this sort of thing, the link below shows how the points would have shaken out sans the playoffs....

https://racingnews.co/2018/11/20/2018-nascar-points-without-the-playoffs/

So, here are the past winners of the CouldaWouldaShoulda Cup, or the They Would Have Raced Different Cup, or whatever you wanna call it.

2004 - Jeff Gordon (5)
2005 - Tony Stewart (2)*
2006 - Jimmie Johnson*
2007 - Jeff Gordon (6)
2008 - Carl Edwards
2009 - Jimmie Johnson (2)*
2010 - Kevin Harvick
2011 - Carl Edwards (2)
2012 - Brad Keselowski*
2013 - Jimmie Johnson (3)*
2014 - Jeff Gordon (7)
2015 - Kevin Harvick (2)
2016 - Kevin Harvick (3)
2017 - Martin Truex, Jr.*
2018 - Kyle Busch

*actually won that year’s championship
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Sucks that JG would have been a 7 time Cup Champion. Harvick and Johnson with 3 apiece is interesting
 
StandOnIt said:
I find using anything Nascar has done to decrease or increase interest is an unproven way of looking at the issues, but many do just that to justify their viewpoint. Using young or older fans is just as unproven. I don't think younger fans are that naive or ignorant or scatterbrained to understand the difference between a season long points battle or the super complicated three tiered points reset, with stage points and stage wins and this and that ending with a 4 car monte for the championship.
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No. My point is that younger fans simply wont care and will eat up what is given to them. I think thats the fan base Nascar is catering to now.

Its a reflection of the nature all sports these days. They are television shows first, and competitive sporting events second. To quote Frank Zappa's central scrutinizer, NASCAR is trying to *whispered into a chalky mic* "accommodate.....the futureee. "

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Snappy D said:
Sucks that JG would have been a 7 time Cup Champion. Harvick and Johnson with 3 apiece is interesting
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As he said, shoulda coulda woulda. We have no idea how things would have played out.

I doubt JJ would only have 3 though. Prior to 2006, he was 5, 2, 2, 5 (woulda been 2nd sans a that wreck) in the points. His only two seasons running the full points system...he finished 5th in a rookie campaign where he lead the standings, and then finished 2nd to Matt Kenseth. Technically, JJ's average points finish under the old format was 3.5 lol. Tiny sample. But with that said, given the speed surges they had at the end of the season, and the supposed "mid season tests", I have my doubts JJ would only be a three time champ under the old format. They were by far the best team in NASCAR for about a decade.

But we dont know. This isnt definitive proof that JJ would be a 4+ time champ anymore than the old system saying Gordon would be a 7x champ. Both are dubious and arent what the record books will say.

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jaqua19 said:
As he said, shoulda coulda woulda. We have no idea how things would have played out.

I doubt JJ would only have 3 though. Prior to 2006, he was 5, 2, 2, 5 (woulda been 2nd sans a that wreck) in the points. His only two seasons running the full points system...he finished 5th in a rookie campaign where he lead the standings, and then finished 2nd to Matt Kenseth. Technically, JJ's average points finish under the old format was 3.5 lol. Tiny sample. But with that said, given the speed surges they had at the end of the season, and the supposed "mid season tests", I have my doubts JJ would only be a three time champ under the old format. They were by far the best team in NASCAR for about a decade.

But we dont know. This isnt definitive proof that JJ would be a 4+ time champ anymore than the old system saying Gordon would be a 7x champ. Both are dubious and arent what the record books will say.

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I believe if I remember correctly, he was in the points lead for a good part of the year his rookie year. I would have loved to see how JJ and Chad operated under the old format
 
jaqua19 said:
No. My point is that younger fans simply wont care and will eat up what is given to them. I think thats the fan base Nascar is catering to now.

Its a reflection of the nature all sports these days. They are television shows first, and competitive sporting events second. To quote Frank Zappa's central scrutinizer, NASCAR is trying to *whispered into a chalky mic* "accommodate.....the futureee. "

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How many young fans are they actually recruiting now compared to JJs earlier years? I think NASCAR is missing the mark in getting new fans interested enough to watch an entire season.
 
Harvick will end up in the 10-15 all-time list in my book and considering the amount of time left in Busch's career he will hop into the top 10. I don't know that the format hindered their legacies, I have heard arguments that winning championships in this format is not legitimate. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

Both are exceptional and two of the best we will ever see. One of the best rivalries I've had the pleasure to watch.
 
jaqua19 said:
No. My point is that younger fans simply wont care and will eat up what is given to them. I think thats the fan base Nascar is catering to now.

Its a reflection of the nature all sports these days. They are television shows first, and competitive sporting events second. To quote Frank Zappa's central scrutinizer, NASCAR is trying to *whispered into a chalky mic* "accommodate.....the futureee. "

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Those meme things on the fenders were a big hit :p Jus kidding. Nascar racing and racing in general is going back to what it was in the beginning before the me too movement. Nascar is always going to have kids that love anything motor. Hot Wheels is a good example and has pretty much paralleled what has happened to Nascar. Hot Wheels came out with the sweet 16 group of cars in the early 70's and the company boomed. Today they are still popular, but sales have been flat for several years. Mattel who makes them are blaming moms and they have launched a program to teach moms how to play with the little cars. :p Mattel continues to make a decent profit, but always wants more. Americans have been programmed since birth to want more and more and more and that will make you happy if you continue to get more. It's advertising B.S.. Some go as far as to think if it is more popular it just has to be better. I suggest as you being a young man, to think about what make ya happy and don't let the more more more crowd influence what you like and don't like. Nascar to me seems focused mainly on the racing product and rightly so, and they continue to make changes good or bad to try to improve the racing. They have done that for as long as I can remember. Technology never takes a rest.
 
jaqua19 said:
I agree. This thread had turned into an anti playoff thread.

Though, it is still relevant, this thread is more about the legacy of these two drivers statistically. Kyle Busch has made 4 of them, Harvick 3, Joey 3. Guys CAN win multiple titles.

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It is just so hard for me to put modern day drivers into the context of GOAT. Everything is so damn different. I think that with the speed with which information travels these days, we are so quick to deem GOAT, and then try to place said driver into the context of what he means to this sport historically. The difference between our sport and stick and ball (among other things) is that we have this mechanical piece to deal with. It has changed so much. What might The King do in his prime in a modern day stock car? Maybe he wouldn't be as good? Better? What might Kyle Busch do in a car from the 60's-70's? Better? Worse? So hard to know. Almost another discipline in its entirety.
 
On the coffee with Kyle, Petty said he had a two door hardtop and he put a roll bar in it and Nascar wasn't going to let him race it with it in there. Ya think things have changed a bit from back then.
 
ToyYoda said:
For those of you in to this sort of thing, the link below shows how the points would have shaken out sans the playoffs....

https://racingnews.co/2018/11/20/2018-nascar-points-without-the-playoffs/

So, here are the past winners of the CouldaWouldaShoulda Cup, or the They Would Have Raced Different Cup, or whatever you wanna call it.

2004 - Jeff Gordon (5)
2005 - Tony Stewart (2)*
2006 - Jimmie Johnson*
2007 - Jeff Gordon (6)
2008 - Carl Edwards
2009 - Jimmie Johnson (2)*
2010 - Kevin Harvick
2011 - Carl Edwards (2)
2012 - Brad Keselowski*
2013 - Jimmie Johnson (3)*
2014 - Jeff Gordon (7)
2015 - Kevin Harvick (2)
2016 - Kevin Harvick (3)
2017 - Martin Truex, Jr.*
2018 - Kyle Busch

*actually won that year’s championship
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I hear you, but I am going on record as saying that Kyle Busch is not the champion, and should not even be considered as "would have won" the championship this year. This isn't the game, and is meaningless. He was deemed the Regular Season Champion which is a recognition of a solid season, but it is not the grand prize. As much as a fanboi as I am, I refuse to venture into this territory. Joey won. Period. On to next year for Rowdy Nation.
 
StandOnIt said:
On the coffee with Kyle, Petty said he had a two door hardtop and he put a roll bar in it and Nascar wasn't going to let him race it with it in there. Ya think things have changed a bit from back then.
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Just a bit. :D
StandOnIt said:
Nascar is not awarding the championship to the driver/team that has the best driving record. They got away from that years ago. It isn't a matter of this version or that version was better than this one with me. Racing doesn't need a chase, playoff or whatever they choose to call it.
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I agree with you completely. Having said that, I do not feel the anxiety so many do given that they do. I don't care. A "deserving" champion is defined by his performance within a given context. I don't care if the context is ****. We all know who the best drivers this year were (and Joey is among them)....or we think we know.....Rodney's magic tricks have confused my perception of the 4's excellence....will make for good offseason banter. If it turns your crank, go ahead and call Kyle Busch the Champion given all of the stupid "if we were back in the the day" point tallies. I won't.

Off topic.....Damn, I love this sport. Can't wait to get to Fontana and Sonoma. Jacked already. What the hell is my issue?
 
Revman said:
I agree with you completely. Having said that, I do not feel the anxiety so many do given that they do. I don't care. A "deserving" champion is defined by his performance within a given context. I don't care if the context is sh!t. We all know who the best drivers this year were (and Joey is among them)....or we think we know.....Rodney's magic tricks have confused my perception of the 4's excellence....will make for good offseason banter. If it turns your crank, go ahead and call Kyle Busch the Champion given all of the stupid "if we were back in the the day" point tallies. I won't.
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Me neither, I don't think the Chase has done anything to improve the racing, or harm it. It just is. That being said, I think the same thing about the original point system though. They both have good and bad parts. The good for me is I am able to easily follow the simpler point system of old as the season goes on. Now if they have a win early in the season, doesn't matter how well they run or why pay attention to the points until right before the cut off. The "big three" wasn't that important all season IMO, they were going to the playoffs if that makes any sense
 
IMO championships don't mean a whole lot with the exist format, particularly being that the playoff races remain unchanged. Its hope the 3 tracks of each round are good enough for you and then pray you run good at Miami, because for some reason unknown to me they choose to settle the championship on the exact same track every year.

I think if you changed up the playoff races more, especially the championship one, you'd see more true champions

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wi_racefan said:
IMO championships don't mean a whole lot with the exist format, particularly being that the playoff races remain unchanged. Its hope the 3 tracks of each round are good enough for you and then pray you run good at Miami, because for some reason unknown to me they choose to settle the championship on the exact same track every year.

I think if you changed up the playoff races more, especially the championship one, you'd see more true champions

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I am all for changing the last track, in fact I think they should announce it a few days before they go there with a drawing. It would never happen I know but I like the concept.
 
If they are going to keep this points system as is ( no reason from their end to change) I would also be down with rotating the final race. If they truly want to be a stick and ball sport rotate their Homestead Miami Ford Championship Bowl every year like the Super Bowl rotates to a new venue each and every year. A championship race at Bristol under the lights, Martinsville Under the lights, Daytona Roval day into night, Gateway, a rebuilt and refurbished Rockingham... imagine the possibilities and spectacle of a rotating Championship Race.
 
Snappy D said:
If they are going to keep this points system as is ( no reason from their end to change) I would also be down with rotating the final race. If they truly want to be a stick and ball sport rotate their Homestead Miami Ford Championship Bowl every year like the Super Bowl rotates to a new venue each and every year. A championship race at Bristol under the lights, Martinsville Under the lights, Daytona Roval day into night, Gateway, a rebuilt and refurbished Rockingham... imagine the possibilities and spectacle of a rotating Championship Race.
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Can you imagine the out cry from fans if the championship race was at Talladega.:eek:
 
Nitro Dude said:
Can you imagine the out cry from fans if the championship race was at Talladega.:eek:
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Promo reads."survival of the final four" fans heads explode as Talladega is picked for the championship race of the season. Cries of gimmick, too many changes, bring back the short tracks, WWE, and I swear I will never watch another race prevail. Nascar's Steve O'Donnell assures fans that there will be no pack racing with the new Nascar anti push rule in place and any contact of .578's of a second or more will be penalized.
 
Revman said:
I hear you, but I am going on record as saying that Kyle Busch is not the champion, and should not even be considered as "would have won" the championship this year. This isn't the game, and is meaningless. He was deemed the Regular Season Champion which is a recognition of a solid season, but it is not the grand prize. As much as a fanboi as I am, I refuse to venture into this territory. Joey won. Period. On to next year for Rowdy Nation.
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Yep, the title is Joey’s and it’s a legitimate championship. Was the 22 team the best in the sport over the course of the season? No, but it’s a common occurrence in all sports to have a champion that wasn’t necessarily the best team from start to finish.
 
Joker said:
Oh please, Kyle will certainly win a championship or two more, even in this wonky format. I'm more worried about Kevin. He seems like the type of guy to up and retire one day, no warning.
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This honestly seems legitimate. Kevin still has the ability. That is beyond question. 2017 aside, a slightly down year in which SHR's transition from Chevy to Ford was being made, Kevin and Kyle have been the two drivers to watch in the Cup series since 2014. Nevertheless, Kevin is one of the older drivers, and it would not come as a surprise to me if he were to retire within the next two or three seasons.

On the topic of whether or not getting another Cup title helps or blemishes their respective legacies, right now, Kyle Busch is looking to be the juggernaut among them all. He, technically, was this year's champion. He's been in title contention every single year. He already has fifty-plus Cup victories, and who is to say that he might not go on into his forties? He has also been re-writing history books. He has shown he is capable of winning at each and every single track. With some guys, you think "the road courses are going to be his best shot." With others, it's "he can only get a win at a restrictor-plate track." With Kyle, it's "how many wins is he going to get at Kentucky?" "Do you think he might reach Darrell Waltrip's mark of twelve wins at Bristol?" You know he is capable of finding a way to win anywhere; what people look at with him is how far he will go each week. That is what puts him in an elite group.

Kevin is gonna be in a tier slightly below Kyle. He may be the one known for playing mind games and intimidating fellow drivers, but he has also been known to choke a few wins away. Then, you've got his pit crew, who have lended helping hands to a few L's over the last few years. Also, the fact Kyle has already surpassed all of his victory tallies in each series speaks for itself. Kevin's going to go down as a guy right on the same level as Rusty Wallace. Rusty had a dominant period as a driver, but also was left ruing some lost title opportunities.

No matter what happens, though, Jimmie Johnson is definitely going down in history as the best of this era. He is not even done yet! What he and his new crew chief could possibly do with the Camaro in 2019 is going to be of huge interest.
 
Truex_rox said:
This honestly seems legitimate. Kevin still has the ability. That is beyond question. 2017 aside, a slightly down year in which SHR's transition from Chevy to Ford was being made, Kevin and Kyle have been the two drivers to watch in the Cup series since 2014. Nevertheless, Kevin is one of the older drivers, and it would not come as a surprise to me if he were to retire within the next two or three seasons.

On the topic of whether or not getting another Cup title helps or blemishes their respective legacies, right now, Kyle Busch is looking to be the juggernaut among them all. He, technically, was this year's champion. He's been in title contention every single year. He already has fifty-plus Cup victories, and who is to say that he might not go on into his forties? He has also been re-writing history books. He has shown he is capable of winning at each and every single track. With some guys, you think "the road courses are going to be his best shot." With others, it's "he can only get a win at a restrictor-plate track." With Kyle, it's "how many wins is he going to get at Kentucky?" "Do you think he might reach Darrell Waltrip's mark of twelve wins at Bristol?" You know he is capable of finding a way to win anywhere; what people look at with him is how far he will go each week. That is what puts him in an elite group.

Kevin is gonna be in a tier slightly below Kyle. He may be the one known for playing mind games and intimidating fellow drivers, but he has also been known to choke a few wins away. Then, you've got his pit crew, who have lended helping hands to a few L's over the last few years. Also, the fact Kyle has already surpassed all of his victory tallies in each series speaks for itself. Kevin's going to go down as a guy right on the same level as Rusty Wallace. Rusty had a dominant period as a driver, but also was left ruing some lost title opportunities.

No matter what happens, though, Jimmie Johnson is definitely going down in history as the best of this era. He is not even done yet! What he and his new crew chief could possibly do with the Camaro in 2019 is going to be of huge interest.
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I agree partly, since 2014 KDB and Harvick have almost the same winning ratio. KDB has 23 wins and Harvick has 22. That was Harvick's first year with SHR . Harvick does have ten years on Kyle so in the future it will change, but not for awhile I don't think.
 
StandOnIt said:
I agree partly, since 2104 KDB and Harvick have almost the same winning ratio. KDB has 23 wins and Harvick has 22. That was Harvick's first year with SHR . Harvick does have ten years on Kyle so in the future it will change, but not for awhile I don't think.
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I could see Kevin driving until he’s 50 though. He’s gonna be 43 in a couple weeks and he just had arguably the best season of his career. Gonna be another fun several years watching these two.
 
ToyYoda said:
Yep, the title is Joey’s and it’s a legitimate championship. Was the 22 team the best in the sport over the course of the season? No, but it’s a common occurrence in all sports to have a champion that wasn’t necessarily the best team from start to finish.
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No way to measure the best over a season when the agendas are different after wins. Gordon said that the whole season was a science experiment after 'Dega. I think the 22 was better than people think. For God's sake, on the sport's biggest stage, he kicked everyone's ass.
 
StandOnIt said:
The "big three" wasn't that important all season IMO, they were going to the playoffs if that makes any sense
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Perfect sense....that's why I never buy into that media bull****.
 
We'll have a multi time champ next year.. first to win consecutive cups since JJ :D

Revman said:
No way to measure the best over a season when the agendas are different after wins. Gordon said that the whole season was a science experiment after 'Dega. I think the 22 was better than people think. For God's sake, on the sport's biggest stage, he kicked everyone's ass.
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Yeah he did!
 
Revman said:
No way to measure the best over a season when the agendas are different after wins. Gordon said that the whole season was a science experiment after 'Dega. I think the 22 was better than people think. For God's sake, on the sport's biggest stage, he kicked everyone's ass.
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Penske said they built all new cars from scratch for the playoffs, I don't know if everybody did that or not but Penske's cars were all brand new.
 
Revman said:
No way to measure the best over a season when the agendas are different after wins. Gordon said that the whole season was a science experiment after 'Dega. I think the 22 was better than people think. For God's sake, on the sport's biggest stage, he kicked everyone's ass.
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I really think Joey is a better driver than everyone thinks. I put him up there with Kyle Busch.. only smarter. This is why we see him fall back like he does in races.. once the car won't give him what he wants he will only take what the car will give him. That is, until it matters.. then he is able to get that extra out of the car that we see guys like Kyle Busch get. He won three races this year.. one to get in the playoffs, one to get to the final four and then the big one for all the glory. He did only what he needed to when he needed to.

Would he rather have won every weekend? Of course.. but he didn't have the car for it. I really don't think he had the car to pull off that pass on Truex at Homestead but talent and pure determination willed that car to stick like no other could all night.

Best part of he may not even have reached his prime yet!
 
SlicedBread22 said:
I really think Joey is a better driver than everyone thinks. I put him up there with Kyle Busch.. only smarter. This is why we see him fall back like he does in races.. once the car won't give him what he wants he will only take what the car will give him. That is, until it matters.. then he is able to get that extra out of the car that we see guys like Kyle Busch get. He won three races this year.. one to get in the playoffs, one to get to the final four and then the big one for all the glory. He did only what he needed to when he needed to.

Would he rather have won every weekend? Of course.. but he didn't have the car for it. I really don't think he had the car to pull off that pass on Truex at Homestead but talent and pure determination willed that car to stick like no other could all night.

Best part of he may not even have reached his prime yet!
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Add in Kez's wins and the Penske bunch got their fair share of wins. I know you are fixated on one driver but ignoring what the team did, and Keselowski having a bad bounce and didn't advance, the Penske team in Nascar was pretty strong.
 
StandOnIt said:
Add in Kez's wins and the Penske bunch got their fair share of wins. I know you are fixated on one driver but ignoring what the team did, and Keselowski having a bad bounce and didn't advance, the Penske team in Nascar was pretty strong.
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Yeah, they got 7 wins this year, 6 of them from August on. They definitely got stronger as the year progressed.
 
SlicedBread22 said:
Not sure you completely understand the meaning of "technically" :D
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Don't worry, I do. Which is why I want to see him come home with an actual Cup or three after a full-season's running before his career is over.
 
Truex_rox said:
Don't worry, I do. Which is why I want to see him come home with an actual Cup or three after a full-season's running before his career is over.
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If I had my tinfoil hat on just so, I could say that Nascar turned their heads the other way to let ol Kyle with this broken ankles run a cheated up car all year to win the championship..what a story, what a comeback. Seems like a certain someone is trying to do the same thing with Harvick's season. ;):p For the record I don't believe either.
 
StandOnIt said:
Add in Kez's wins and the Penske bunch got their fair share of wins. I know you are fixated on one driver but ignoring what the team did, and Keselowski having a bad bounce and didn't advance, the Penske team in Nascar was pretty strong.
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'm not ignoring what the team did.. just talking about something else. Team Penske as a whole through all of Motorsports had one of (if not the) best seasons ever. Indy 500, Brickyard 400, Southern 500, inaugural roval race, Roger being inducted into the HoF, 500th overall win, and a cup championship. I'm probably missing more than one other big accomplishment too.
 
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