23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

See...too many of the members take this place waaaaay too seriously. I mean, other than SOI, nobody here is on NASCAR payroll. We CAN have some fun.

Relax guys & gals.
Too many folks across the Interwebs take sports too seriously. Only a handful here are or were directly involved in motorsports. The rest of us lose nothing but hours on our recliner test logs if NASCAR implodes.
 
And players & teams are completely different things. Lot of NASCAR drivers AND team owners went broke. Because...? No charters. Team shut down? Next to worthless. For 50ish years.
Tell that to SOI. I’m just telling him that you can’t blame the teams or leagues for those players being broke, they suck with their money.
 
Just listening to that makes me angry. Sounds like going to have some serious mud slinging on their side.

Just remember the owners wanted a common car with common part to save them from themselves.

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Yeah many things have been said that work for the chain pulling grandstanding going on, but they won't go anywhere in a court of law. A number of teams worked on developing the car, a number of them produce parts for the car, large changes were not able to be done on the run to keep costs down until the next year. Nascar admonished because they own tracks? They have the freedom to choose who and what races on them. It's a team built car, build something else and run it elsewhere nobody is stopping you. Many teams do so. On and on. Who knows they might have a point on some things, but I didn't see much today but working to manipulate the fans they could.
 
And players & teams are completely different things. Lot of NASCAR drivers AND team owners went broke. Because...? No charters. Team shut down? Next to worthless. For 50ish years.
Jogging your memory. Back when the charters were GIVEN to the teams to start with, many of the lower tier teams were start and parkers. Can't remember exactly the numbers but with the given charters there was a clause that teams were supposed to maintain in at least one of three years something like 33rd place?

If a team was so bad they couldn't do that they either had to sell the charter OR Nascar would take it and sell it. If they did reach that number the 3 year clock started again.
There were a number of teams shuffling points around while circling the drain. Go broke? they had a charter to sell and they did so.
 
Also keep in mind that the same team owners mentioned were instrumental in giving us the RTA, which was as much as anything an admission that they weren't all in on NASCAR's way if doing things. I think it would be presumptuous to assume that EVERYONE that signed the new agreement is not in sympathy with the non-signers. The vibes I get is that NOBODY was all that happy with what they signed, they mainly did it for pragmatic reasons, not principle reasons, so if I were Larry Mac, I would be hesitant to build an argument based on who signed it.
 
23X1 is dismissed because they’ve only been on the scene for 4 1/2 years while the 1360 races entered by Bob Jenkins over the past 20 seasons are dismissed as the feeble efforts of a non-competitive team.

Neither of these facts is relevant to the matters at hand. Larry Mac is an ignorant shill.
I don't think Larry's ignorant, I just think he knows where his bread is buttered. I wouldn't expect ANYONE in the NASCAR broadcast orbit to say ANYTHING very counter to the NASCAR party line. Larry can afford to throw a couple of team owners under the bus.
 
That was an awesome read. NASCAR is basically an auto racing mafia family. I'm surprised extortion wasn't alleged.
To bring it full circle, I knew a couple of long time NASCAR competitors from the 60's forward that were CONVINCED that the Mafia was pulling NASCAR's strings as far back as the late 50's when Bill France Sr. needed to raise funds build Daytona. I was also told that the time Bill Jr. supposedly broke his ankles in a boating accident, that it was really was a Mafia enforcer that did it. Not saying I believe a word of it, but those two sure did.
 
Also keep in mind that the same team owners mentioned were instrumental in giving us the RTA, which was as much as anything an admission that they weren't all in on NASCAR's way if doing things. I think it would be presumptuous to assume that EVERYONE that signed the new agreement is not in sympathy with the non-signers. The vibes I get is that NOBODY was all that happy with what they signed, they mainly did it for pragmatic reasons, not principle reasons, so if I were Larry Mac, I would be hesitant to build an argument based on who signed it.

You would think that these teams who are supposedly not happy would be posting statements. All so far is a friend of a friend says they aren't happy. :idunno:
 
If we can think of the question here, the suits will cover it in the injuction request before the issue ever comes up.
Yes. Just a hypothetical if the injunction is denied (I highly doubt it will be) and therefore they actually do miss some, but not all, races as a result. It may not be covered in that case.
 
I'm very interested to see how fans act towards these guys this week. Talladega is about one of the most passionate fan bases you can find.

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You would think that these teams who are supposedly not happy would be posting statements. All so far is a friend of a friend says they aren't happy. :idunno:
The agreement they signed forbid criticizing it and or NASCAR, remember? If you have any doubts about the lack of enthusiasm for the agreement, go back to Rick Hendrick's statement, possibly the most positive spin guy I have ever seen; "I was just tired". That's certainly not a ringing endorsement.
 
The agreement they signed forbid criticizing it and or NASCAR, remember? If you have any doubts about the lack of enthusiasm for the agreement, go back to Rick Hendrick's statement, possibly the most positive spin guy I have ever seen; "I was just tired". That's certainly not a ringing endorsement.
I would be to after two years of negotiations. A person can read anything into that they want.
 
Rick is the biggest glass half full guy I know of in racing. If "I was tired" was the BEST reason he could come up with signing the agreement, it must REALLY be awful.
Like I said a person can read anything into that they want....and many do. Have you talked to Rick about why he signed?
 
Like I said a person can read anything into that they want....and many do. Have you talked to Rick about why he signed?
Did Rick have to sell a Corvette when he signed the agreement?
 
NASCAR is going to lose this lawsuit.
Amazing how you judge this without any testimony or evidence presented by the defendant. If it was that much of a slam dunk the other teams would have been all over joining this litigation. The judge may very well rule that certain provisions of NASCAR policy violate antitrust law. But the close participation of team owners within the structure of the sport (and rule making) could limit injunctions and damages.

IMO, Jordan, Hamcrap and Jenkins are seeking to push NASCAR into a league model similar to stick & ball, where they own their teams as a franchise and direct much more of the revenue $ to themselves verses the league or tracks. It’s always about the money. They want their franchise forever and the right to make many millions back when they sell it. Maybe these teams deserve that. But they never paid NASCAR a dime for the charters, because those were not intended to be an owned asset. This will be part of the evidence and discovery, and it may diminish some claims from the plaintiffs.

Frankly, the complaints from the owners about making no profit fall deaf on my ears. Racers are forever spending every nickel they get to go faster, and rich racers pay themselves before the corporation bottom line is finalized (no corporate taxes to pay when that happens). The top teams build massive racing shops, gleaming headquarters, own jets and helicopters, and write off annually under depreciation for capital expense). The big boys employ hundreds of people and pay their drivers top $. They compete on the track and compete with themselves. The owners also pay themselves very well. So, what is left over? Almost nothing. After the write offs for expenses, I bet some even get tax refunds for their companies. Small teams don’t get prime sponsorship so they field cars on far less, yet spend everything they get.

As to the plaintiff’s claim that these teams cannot race in any other series, or that the car itself is so specialized that it helps constitute their monopoly? The car was developed in conjunction with team feedback and from complaints the owners had about costs, safety, etc. it is a proprietary model that any business would legally claim ownership of, due to intellectual property and development. As for limits on competing in other series? There is precedent for that…can NBA players also play for other pro leagues? No. Sports leagues can dictate participation requirements.

One of their strongest claims IMO relates to how NASCAR purchased a number of the racetracks they compete on. That could be construed as a conflict of interest, although proving how that restricts opportunity to participate in NASCAR events would be difficult. Look at how many non-owned tracks get added into the schedule. NASCAR has also cut races out from tracks they own, which helps their case.

I can’t and obviously don’t know anything about the agreements these folks signed or are part of this. It will be a battle royal.
 
Amazing how you judge this without any testimony or evidence presented by the defendant. If it was that much of a slam dunk the other teams would have been all over joining this litigation. The judge may very well rule that certain provisions of NASCAR policy violate antitrust law. But the close participation of team owners within the structure of the sport (and rule making) could limit injunctions and damages.

IMO, Jordan, Hamcrap and Jenkins are seeking to push NASCAR into a league model similar to stick & ball, where they own their teams as a franchise and direct much more of the revenue $ to themselves verses the league or tracks. It’s always about the money. They want their franchise forever and the right to make many millions back when they sell it. Maybe these teams deserve that. But they never paid NASCAR a dime for the charters, because those were not intended to be an owned asset. This will be part of the evidence and discovery, and it may diminish some claims from the plaintiffs.

Frankly, the complaints from the owners about making no profit fall deaf on my ears. Racers are forever spending every nickel they get to go faster, and rich racers pay themselves before the corporation bottom line is finalized (no corporate taxes to pay when that happens). The top teams build massive racing shops, gleaming headquarters, own jets and helicopters, and write off annually under depreciation for capital expense). The big boys employ hundreds of people and pay their drivers top $. They compete on the track and compete with themselves. The owners also pay themselves very well. So, what is left over? Almost nothing. After the write offs for expenses, I bet some even get tax refunds for their companies. Small teams don’t get prime sponsorship so they field cars on far less, yet spend everything they get.

As to the plaintiff’s claim that these teams cannot race in any other series, or that the car itself is so specialized that it helps constitute their monopoly? The car was developed in conjunction with team feedback and from complaints the owners had about costs, safety, etc. it is a proprietary model that any business would legally claim ownership of, due to intellectual property and development. As for limits on competing in other series? There is precedent for that…can NBA players also play for other pro leagues? No. Sports leagues can dictate participation requirements.

One of their strongest claims IMO relates to how NASCAR purchased a number of the racetracks they compete on. That could be construed as a conflict of interest, although proving how that restricts opportunity to participate in NASCAR events would be difficult. Look at how many non-owned tracks get added into the schedule. NASCAR has also cut races out from tracks they own, which helps their case.

I can’t and obviously don’t know anything about the agreements these folks signed or are part of this. It will be a battle royal.
“Predatory business practices” will be easy to prove.
We don’t have to agree.
 
I think that since both teams are young and just bought into this as well as being in talks to buy from haas tells the story on nascars side that if it was so bad just walk away and quit expanding
 
Amazing how you judge this without any testimony or evidence presented by the defendant. If it was that much of a slam dunk the other teams would have been all over joining this litigation. The judge may very well rule that certain provisions of NASCAR policy violate antitrust law. But the close participation of team owners within the structure of the sport (and rule making) could limit injunctions and damages.

IMO, Jordan, Hamcrap and Jenkins are seeking to push NASCAR into a league model similar to stick & ball, where they own their teams as a franchise and direct much more of the revenue $ to themselves verses the league or tracks. It’s always about the money. They want their franchise forever and the right to make many millions back when they sell it. Maybe these teams deserve that. But they never paid NASCAR a dime for the charters, because those were not intended to be an owned asset. This will be part of the evidence and discovery, and it may diminish some claims from the plaintiffs.

Frankly, the complaints from the owners about making no profit fall deaf on my ears. Racers are forever spending every nickel they get to go faster, and rich racers pay themselves before the corporation bottom line is finalized (no corporate taxes to pay when that happens). The top teams build massive racing shops, gleaming headquarters, own jets and helicopters, and write off annually under depreciation for capital expense). The big boys employ hundreds of people and pay their drivers top $. They compete on the track and compete with themselves. The owners also pay themselves very well. So, what is left over? Almost nothing. After the write offs for expenses, I bet some even get tax refunds for their companies. Small teams don’t get prime sponsorship so they field cars on far less, yet spend everything they get.

As to the plaintiff’s claim that these teams cannot race in any other series, or that the car itself is so specialized that it helps constitute their monopoly? The car was developed in conjunction with team feedback and from complaints the owners had about costs, safety, etc. it is a proprietary model that any business would legally claim ownership of, due to intellectual property and development. As for limits on competing in other series? There is precedent for that…can NBA players also play for other pro leagues? No. Sports leagues can dictate participation requirements.

One of their strongest claims IMO relates to how NASCAR purchased a number of the racetracks they compete on. That could be construed as a conflict of interest, although proving how that restricts opportunity to participate in NASCAR events would be difficult. Look at how many non-owned tracks get added into the schedule. NASCAR has also cut races out from tracks they own, which helps their case.

I can’t and obviously don’t know anything about the agreements these folks signed or are part of this. It will be a battle royal.
Great write up. Along those highlighted lines. Some teams have no problem with their driver racing in other racing series and they do. Another point about the lawyers hit parade about unfair monopoly. They said because Nascar doesn't allow other series to race on their tracks? 1. Who wants to? Late models on a 1.5? or a road course? Are you kidding me. These lawyers prove they don't know much about auto racing, but like many fans they are always trying to compare it to stick and ball and Jordan is trying to make it a stick and ball business model IMO.
 
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