23XI statement on not signing Charter agreement

As it stands at present, It's Dear Michael and Denny. If you want to renew your charters the deadline is September 20th.
 
aunty dive said:
Some apparently cannot, or refuse to grasp the concept of the term “cultural icon”.
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I'm absolutely flabbergasted...just flabbergasted that we are having a conversation revolving around differentiating Michael Jordan from other icons.

I've genuinely never seen this before. Michael Jordan is the most famous athlete of all time.

There's arguably no one who is a bigger deal when it comes to celebrity.
 
gnomesayin said:
It's obviously tempting for most to make this about the personalities involved and their positive or negative feelings toward them. Yeah, it's noteworthy that Michael Jordan of all sports figures is at the center of this. Beyond that, can we take a little wider view?

Somehow the members of the France family escape this scrutiny. We're not here debating how good of a guy Jim France is, how smartly he spends his money, and whether he and his kin deserve to keep the additional portions of revenue that the teams are seeking. Perhaps if that dope Brian were still in charge, we would be. Nevertheless, Jim and the other active members of the family wisely keep themselves out of the headlines and in the background. So it's "Michael Jordan and Denny Hamlin vs. NASCAR", as if they're suing the entire sport, not "vs. the France family and their appointed executives".

Ultimately, this isn't about individuals. These are structural tensions that have been brewing since broadcast revenues skyrocketed. This showdown was inevitable in some form. The question was only what form it would take and who would pull the trigger.

Rick Hendrick said he was tired and thus signed. Richard Childress said he has too many people dependent on him to do anything else but sign under threat of deadline. He also stated that if the plaintiffs prevail, all team owners will benefit as he understands it. Doubtless some owners are more agreeable to the current terms than others. However, if this results in charter agreements or input more in line with what teams sought over the past few years, all will gladly accept.

I'll lay out my bias: I'm vaguely sympathetic to the team owners' plight. Not because I hate NASCAR. Because historically they have been on the short end of the stick in NASCAR'S unique structure. I don't favor a team-owned series by any means. Nobody else is going to own NASCAR anytime soon. However, I think a slightly wider distribution of power would be a net positive. I think the Frances having to be more accountable to some of the most crucial "stakeholders" could lead to better processes and decision making.

If that's wrong, I'd ask those who disagree to explain why?
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Good luck with that.
 
jaqua19 said:
I'm absolutely flabbergasted...just flabbergasted that we are having a conversation revolving around differentiating Michael Jordan from other icons.

I've genuinely never seen this before. Michael Jordan is the most famous athlete of all time.

There's arguably no one who is a bigger deal when it comes to celebrity.
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Flabbergasted? You are one that continues to vacillate from Shocked to he's not going anywhere. Lol. I know I expect more of the same as the Michael drama continues.
 
StandOnIt said:
As it stands at present, It's Dear Michael and Denny. If you want to renew your charters the deadline is September 20th.
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This is confusing.

It’s October 9. Today, a judge set an October 16 date for a preliminary hearing on Kessler’s application for an injunction that would allow the plaintiffs to compete in 2025 as chartered teams while the legal process grinds on.
 
aunty dive said:
This is confusing.

It’s October 9. Today, a judge set an October 16 date for a preliminary hearing on Kessler’s application for an injunction that would allow the plaintiffs to compete in 2025 as chartered teams while the legal process grinds on.
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I'm not confused, they don't have charters right?
 
Here is what the letter said. I wasn't sure Nascar had allowed them to keep their charters but nope. I wonder about Front Row. I'd assume they don't have theirs either.
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aunty dive said:
This is confusing.

It’s October 9. Today, a judge set an October 16 date for a preliminary hearing on Kessler’s application for an injunction that would allow the plaintiffs to compete in 2025 as chartered teams while the legal process grinds on.
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I thought Nascar had until December the 2nd to answer on that.
 
StandOnIt said:
I thought Nascar had until December the 2nd to answer on that.
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“A hearing was set for Oct. 16 in federal court in Charlotte. NASCAR was also ordered to respond to the motion for expedited discovery by Friday and respond to the motion for the preliminary injunction on Monday.”

apnews.com

2 teams suing NASCAR ask court to recognize them as chartered while antitrust case proceeds

The two teams suing NASCAR have asked for a court order to compete under the 2025 charter agreement as their antitrust case moves through federal court.
apnews.com apnews.com
 
aunty dive said:
“A hearing was set for Oct. 16 in federal court in Charlotte. NASCAR was also ordered to respond to the motion for expedited discovery by Friday and respond to the motion for the preliminary injunction on Monday.”

apnews.com

2 teams suing NASCAR ask court to recognize them as chartered while antitrust case proceeds

The two teams suing NASCAR have asked for a court order to compete under the 2025 charter agreement as their antitrust case moves through federal court.
apnews.com apnews.com
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I’m hoping NASCAR won’t fight the injunction and we can move forward.”
 
virtualbalboa said:
You know what, I looked through the lawsuit text and it refers to the teams as independent contractors. I am admittedly surprised by that as I had a very hard time imagining what the deliverable was for the team aside from "show up to races and make the bare minimum attempt at completing the distance".
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I disagree with Kessler’s characterization. If I am NASCAR’s lawyer, I am rebutting that because I just don’t think that’s true. The teams are businesses who “partner” with NASCAR.
 
The Nature Boy said:
I disagree with Kessler’s characterization. If I am NASCAR’s lawyer, I am rebutting that because I just don’t think that’s true. The teams are businesses who “partner” with NASCAR.
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Nascar teams do not own parts of Nascar. Stick and ball teams I would guess are partnerships because the league disburses funds to all of the teams regardless of their records I believe and they share in the profit and loss of the league.

An independent contractor works for other people or companies on a temporary or contracted basis, while a partnership involves two or more individuals sharing ownership and responsibilities in a business. In a partnership, each partner contributes to the business and shares in its profits and losses, whereas independent contractors operate their own businesses and are typically self-employed.
 
StandOnIt said:
Nascar teams do not own parts of Nascar. Stick and ball teams I would guess are partnerships because the league disburses funds to all of the teams regardless of their records I believe and they share in the profit and loss of the league.

An independent contractor works for other people or companies on a temporary or contracted basis, while a partnership involves two or more individuals sharing ownership and responsibilities in a business. In a partnership, each partner contributes to the business and shares in its profits and losses, whereas independent contractors operate their own businesses and are typically self-employed.
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You seem to be confusing individuals working together vs. businesses.

If you and I own construction firms and we partner together on a project, we’re sharing resources but neither of us can dictate to the other how to run their businesses.
 
The Nature Boy said:
You seem to be confusing individuals working together vs. businesses.

If you and I own construction firms and we partner together on a project, we’re sharing resources but neither of us can dictate to the other how to run their businesses.
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Nope. I said the same thing you are saying. Partnerships share in the profit and loss.
 
jaqua19 said:
I'm absolutely flabbergasted...just flabbergasted that we are having a conversation revolving around differentiating Michael Jordan from other icons.

I've genuinely never seen this before. Michael Jordan is the most famous athlete of all time.

There's arguably no one who is a bigger deal when it comes to celebrity.
Click to expand...
Some of us don't follow celebrities, popular culture, or all sports. From here, he's just another famous person among the many that have zero affect on my life, like Beyonce, Quentin Tarantino, Howard Stern, or Oprah Winfrey.

No need to get your Knicks in a twist. (See what I did there? Basketball joke! Get it?) I'm not concerned if you don't happen to know who David Sibley or Roger Tory Peterson are. Different cultures, different icons.
 
Plaintiffs cannot establish a likelihood of success on the merits for multiple reasons, including that this is a dispute over contract terms, not an antitrust case.
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That's an interesting bit. Is that going to be NASCAR's line of defense?
 
I can’t believe the tail chasing speculation has kept this thread going to the point it feels like the off season. Shouldn’t we save this kind of round and round for when racing isn’t happening?

Let it play out in court a bit before we jump to all kinds of conclusions and assumptions about stuff that is not yet clear. This was news when it first came out bit till new stuff comes out in trial it feels like pointless wheel spinning 🤷🏻‍♂️😬.
 
wi_racefan said:
Which are a fraction of the size of a nascar one. Nascar has to regulate the cars, the competition on the track, the competition on pit road, drivers and crew members. Not 22 players on a little 100 yard field.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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It doesn't mean they can't upload a PDF file on NASCAR.com and let everyone read it for themselves. The old ARCA rulebooks were available to pretty much anyone who asked.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I have trouble with the term. Perhaps that's because it's been so over- and mis-used in the last couple of decades. It's been diluted to the point of meaninglessness.

Maybe my culture doesn't overlap much with the mainstream.
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Have you heard of Taylor Swift? If that woman shaved her eyebrows off, there would be 50 million girls and young women worldwide doing it before the day was over.
 
Fact: NASCAR struggles for legitimacy in the sports world. Oh hey ESPN. Fact: MJ is the GOAT of the greater sports world. Fact: The GOAT owning a team in NASCAR builds legitimacy. This isn't hard....and referring to the man as a shoe salesman shows ignorance.
 
AlTerego said:
Everyone keeps telling me how important he is to NASCAR but no one can give me any measurable improvements his involvement has made. I’m perfectly willing to give him credit where credit is due though.
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Show me where The Felon has had measurable impact on NASCAR. How about Coach? What metric would you like to use? Fans in the stands? Show me a direct correlation between an entity and improved attendance viewership.
 
RaceCritter said:
I can’t believe the tail chasing speculation has kept this thread going to the point it feels like the off season. Shouldn’t we save this kind of round and round for when racing isn’t happening?

Let it play out in court a bit before we jump to all kinds of conclusions and assumptions about stuff that is not yet clear. This was news when it first came out bit till new stuff comes out in trial it feels like pointless wheel spinning 🤷🏻‍♂️😬.
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Deegan!
 
Revman said:
Fact: NASCAR struggles for legitimacy in the sports world. Oh hey ESPN. Fact: MJ is the GOAT of the greater sports world. Fact: The GOAT owning a team in NASCAR builds legitimacy. This isn't hard....and referring to the man as a shoe salesman shows ignorance.
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So Nascar is illegitimate? And a 60 year old retired basketball player selling shoes from China is going to save it. Only in America. Might be better movie than Talladega nights.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Some of us don't follow celebrities, popular culture, or all sports. From here, he's just another famous person among the many that have zero affect on my life, like Beyonce, Quentin Tarantino, Howard Stern, or Oprah Winfrey.

No need to get your Knicks in a twist. (See what I did there? Basketball joke! Get it?) I'm not concerned if you don't happen to know who David Sibley or Roger Tory Peterson are. Different cultures, different icons.
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I had a talking to with myself regarding the MJ cultural icon thing and I realized I was wrong. IDK anything about MJ’s post playing career so I need to yield to those that do and trust them.

For me I consider men like Chuck Yeager & Neil Armstrong to be cultural icons but that is likely due to age and personal interest. In any case I’m looking forward to the race on Sunday!
 
Revman said:
Show me where The Felon has had measurable impact on NASCAR. How about Coach? What metric would you like to use? Fans in the stands? Show me a direct correlation between an entity and improved attendance viewership.
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My opinion is that no NASCAR team owner has caused any uptick in NASCAR popularity.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
I've also heard of the Kardashians. Those are the kind of 'cultural icons' that render the phrase meaningless.
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The phrase doesn't mean any more to me than it does to you. In fact, when I see "icon", my first instinct is to run the opposite direction as fast as I can. That being said, it is foolish to underestimate the power and influence they wield out there in the rest of the world.
 
Charlie Spencer said:
Some of us don't follow celebrities, popular culture, or all sports. From here, he's just another famous person among the many that have zero affect on my life, like Beyonce, Quentin Tarantino, Howard Stern, or Oprah Winfrey.

No need to get your Knicks in a twist. (See what I did there? Basketball joke! Get it?) I'm not concerned if you don't happen to know who David Sibley or Roger Tory Peterson are. Different cultures, different icons.
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I get that. It just never occured to me that people don't recognize how important Michael Jordan is to culture and pro athletes. Like, I understand the lack of significance, totally. I just assumed it was

"he's not that significant to me like any other celebrity, but I do know he's MASSIVELY famous and important to pop culture, even if he isn't to me."

But maybe not.

My Knicks in a twist? How clever.
See look at that. You know more basketball more than you think you do ;)
 
AlTerego said:
I had a talking to with myself regarding the MJ cultural icon thing and I realized I was wrong. IDK anything about MJ’s post playing career so I need to yield to those that do and trust them.

For me I consider men like Chuck Yeager & Neil Armstrong to be cultural icons but that is likely due to age and personal interest. In any case I’m looking forward to the race on Sunday!
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Funny you should mention Chuck Yeager. Certainly a hero of mine and perhaps the most iconic pilot in history, but I was talking to a late 20's parts salesman that I have gotten to know fairly well the other day, and he had not the first clue who Chuck Yeager was. Sad, but true. I showed him one of Chuck's old ACDelco commercials on Youtube, and neither the name or the face rang a bell.
 
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